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I think she's good for the Liberal party, even though she has been a vocal critic of Martin. I think an awful lot of Canadians agree with her "politically incorrect" stances... I, for one, do.

Good point Mirror. While we're comparing the two wonderful systems, why not talk about the 100,000 Americans who die preventable deaths each year because they can't afford the health care premiums. Why not talk about all of the bankrupcies in the states because of insufficient health care coverage. Why not talk about the 40 million Americans who make over $7.50 per hour, and so they aren't eligible for free minimalistic health care.... Canadian health care costs 40% less per capita than American health care. And all Canadians are covered.... and the USA, with the most expensive health care system in the world, is tied with only South Africa in the industrialized world in its failure to provide health care to all pregnant women and their children. In the modern world, only Portugal and Greece have worse infant mortality rates than the USA. And why do we have a problem with insufficient capabilities as per the two stories, above... It's pretty simple. Tories with mean-spirited agendas like Brian Mulroney kept telling Canadians "We can't afford it"... And cut back financing for health care. They can't afford to run deficits, but they still give bigger and bigger tax breaks each and every year to corporate Canada... but less for our health care system. Our Conservative Liberal prime minister Martin cut corporate taxes back by $100 Billion dollars in the past few years... and cut health care transfer payments to help do it... The public health-care system is less expensive than the private system of the USA. We CAN afford a fully funtional health care system. The problem is political, not fiscal.

Really... GM's going to stop making cars... Ford too... ... and what's next, the LCBO is going to fold due to their union ??? I thought you couln't stand those "commie" programs that force their ideals on companies... and you used the word "luckily"... why, if I hadn't read the paragraph just above, I would have thought you were a union man... You aught to make up your mind... so you don't confuse us all about what's good and bad...

You can think of it another way. Loyalty of an employee is worth something to a company. If the company has to spend time training, etc... that is a real material cost to the employer. In a minimum wage position, the employees loyalty is quite often close to zero. If the employee is well paid, they are more likely to be consciencious of being punctual, reliable, etc... If the employee is the company's customer interface person, there are further considerations. Many customers like dealing with a familiar face, so keeping employees longterm is a benefit. Having a disgruntled customer interface person usually does not work well.... If the employee sees that they are treated as a mere commodity, then usually, the employee sees the job as a commodity....

You'll find all kinds of people in every culture. There will always be the few who we have a hard time respecting because they don't "pull their weight". However, most people are not like that. If we were to eliminate the social safety net that we have in place in Canada/Ontario just so that these few people did not "rip us off", then we'd be putting thousands and thousands in jeopardy. Most people who lose their jobs want to become re-employed. I'm glad that there is unemployment insurance to help them survive (and not lose their homes, cars, etc..) due to the unforseen event that has left them temporarily unemployed. It happens to thousands every year... Most women whose husbands left them with small children (due to death or other reason) would rather not be in the situation that they are in. I'm glad that there is a mothers allowance and other forms of assistance for them. I think that a mother is the best person to bring up a child... not a day-care facility... I'm glad that there is a health care system in place to help the millions of people who could not otherwise afford the care that saves or improves their lives. (You can't even compare our system to the USA's... but then again, most European countries blow our system out of the water). I hope that should I, or anyone that I care for, should require any of these services, that they be there for them, just as I would hope the said services be there for me if I should ever need them. I realize that for most of my life, I've paid an awful lot more than I've extracted from the system, but it was there a few times when I did need it. Even though a tiny fraction of a percent of our population might abuse the system, I'd rather have it so that people who do need it are protected when they need it. You'll find that the "have nots" don't complain half as much as the "haves" about the social safety net. (Except for in this forum, the "haves" don't bother with it...) Those who don't need it don't want to pay for it, but I think you'll find that those who do need it don't complain nearly so loud. And the majority of Canadians will at some time or other, need it.

What are you basing Martin's Conservative-ness on? Certainly not his social philosophy. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Fiscal Policy...

Let's look at the other side of the coin.... Their employer (the government) can't go out of business.... so the employer can wait... and wait... for the union to give in... can't they. A real business has to weigh the reality of the potential of bankrupcy due to cash-flow stoppage, and therefore doesn't have the luxury that the government has.... Nor the said advantage over their employees. However, I'm glad that the government doesn't use slave labour... because it's not a far cry from minimum wage labour....

Wow... how did you read that from anything I have said. I don't think you should have to work for the state... In fact, with the attitudes that your espouse, I would recommend that they never hire you. I don't see how you can have the perspective that you are a slave to the state. The state gives you health care (that over 100,000 US citizens die from not having... every year, and that bankrupts hundreds of thousands of US citizens per year). The state gives you a security blanket with unemployment insurance, should your company purchase a machine that makes you redundant. The state gives you an infrastructure from which you can get clean water, electricity, security, warmth... and the list goes on. And what do you give the state for all this... a piddly $600/month (or was that Hugo).... and you bitch and complain like a spurned old maid.... I personally would like to pay less in taxes than I do, but by attacking the bottom people on the chain is not the way to do it... These LCBO employees don't make that much money.... You should set your sites on the high dollar political-corporate criminals who really cost us money... you should set your sites on policies that cost us big time.... Not the piddly few dollars more per hour that the LCBO employee makes more than you....

Gee... I don't understand that labour has value... Like the labour of those working at the LCBO. I value their labour, and so does the government of Ontario. They provide good value for my money, and I'm glad that they are well paid. Their wage isn't arbitrary, as you would suggest that I think. I think that they have a good wage, and I'm glad that the government pays them well enough to have a decent living. Unlike you mean-spirited conservatives who are jealous that they make more money than you, I appreciate the value of labour. I'm certainly glad that conservatives like you are not in power to try to ruin the lives of everybody that you are jealous of... Like Mike Harris did....

Haven't you been paying any attention.... at least federally... They were called Reform, and people thought they were too "whacked out", so the formed "The Alliance" to sound like there was more than one idea in the party... People still recognized them for what they were... So the borrowed the name "Conservative", relying on patronage from people who don't think, people who say "my daddy voted Conservative, and my Grandaddy voted Conservative, and I damn well will too"... without even knowing what the "alien in wolve's clothing" is all about... But enought people still see through Harper and his right-wing ideals. For you information.... the "Liberals" are Conservatives... at least Paul Martin is...

So that's it is it? You just want to push your beliefs and morality on other people instead of letting them choose for themselves. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Just getting to know who I'm dealing with... how is that pushing my beliefs...

"Fair market value" as determined by the...oh shit...MARKET OF LABOUR. An employer doesn't determine wages, as i"ve said a million times already. The employer tries to determine the wage. Face it... not everyone can get into a union shop... there are many skilled workers, who out of desparation to put food on their family's table, will take one of these substandard jobs. Desparation on the part of the unemployed is something that many employers take advantage of... Desparation and your "fair market" Yes... this is one of the realities that I'm talking about. It is one of the reasons that unions have not "outlived their usefulness"... as you would put it... Once again.... when people get desparate because they need to put food on their family's table, pay rent, etc... they often have to stoop to taking these jobs. Your "Fair Market" forces people to take substandard jobs.... In the automotive sector.... they get a lot better holiday schedule than the mandated statutory holiday list....

Harris's goals had nothing to do with balanced budgets. He had to sell off pretty much all of our electricity generation capabilities, the 407 highway to hide the destruction he had done to the province's finances so that he could be elected for a second term to do more damage. It would appear that his intent was to destroy the tax-base that supported our social services....

They have official party status, both in Ontario, and Federally. It should be obvious that the biggest tax returns go to those who pay the most taxes, and that is not where the problem lies. The Harris government cut from the poorest people in the province to give bigger tax returns... and who gets the lions share of these... Harris cut health care to give bigger tax returns... to whom... I could go on for some time, but I'm sure you already get the drift. Harris's Social Services Slight of Hand Harris also moved provincially paid-for social service costs to municipal juridictions to reduce provincial costs... why... you know why... The consequence of this move was to "pretend" that these cost disappeared, and the nice Mr. Harris cut our taxes... But it was a slight of hand.... We have to pay for them on the municipal level, so our property taxes went up... way up... And all the money that used to pay for social services.... who got it.... You know who... The wealthiest segment of our population. So the majority of the population got a tiny decrease in their tax bill, a hefty increase in their property tax bill, and a loss of services... that we now have to pay cash for.... The net result is that the poorer segment of the population are paying more tax, and the richer segment is paying less.... Pretty funny, if you fall into the latter category...

I think eureka's on the money....

Dude, more liquor stores! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And lots of booze and parties is, like, really cool, is it Dude ??

"Fair market value", as determined by whom... the employer ?? or how about a union... Because without the union, the employer's version of "fair market value" is what usually holds, and with a union in place, the employee's perspective gets a little more weight... To quote YOU from a few weeks back... "Why should someone get paid $18/hour for pushing a broom at an automotive plant"... Should he get minimum wage ??? Extending this, how much should a guy make who just has to tighten bolts all day... doesn't take much of a brain, so why should he make more than minimum wage ?? Maybe the union itself doesn't keep morale up... but a healthy paycheque, excellent benefits, and good holiday time probably help keep morale up... especially when you compare it to non-union jobs....

Think about it geographically... you can pull up a map from the internet, and see the sizes and proximities of the surrounding countries....and what big country's shadow that they live in... You might want to try www.maps.google.com It's funny to see a business owner like yourself (as your quote would imply) spending so much time arguing on the internet.... Business slow ??? So if it is OK for uneducated people in the private sector to make more than $17/hour, why then is it such a problem in the public sector????? Your venum is going to boil... seething hatred for someone who applies for and gets a reasonable job... not an outstanding job, because they want to pay their rent.... Under theat of violence ???? I'll have to pay attention for the man with the gun at the next LCBO that I visit... thanks for the tip. Are you sure that some of the money you earn is subsidized.... For example, your company doesnt have to pay for health insurance do they? They dont get electricity on an infrastructure that was paid for by tax dollars ??? I'll concede... a tiny house and a small second-hand car perhaps... (imagine begrudging that)... By the way Hugo, what is "it"... your paycheque ?? You assume that for the taxes you pay, that you get nothing.... I beg to differ... You get an infrastructure that can support the company where you work, so that you can have a job. You get roads on which to travel. You get policemen to help make your existence safer. You get schools to educate you and your children. You get clean water to drink.... Man, could you imagine if you were plopped down in the bush... how much of your life would you have to work to achieve these things.... You couldn't do it. So I think you should be grateful for the things that you have, and for all of the taxpayers that have, like yourself, cooperatively paid for such an infrastructure that allows you the freedoms you have... Oh, and you still haven't answered the question. Let me try again: I think it would be a great idea for the government to take over many things, such as automobile insurance. It would probably be a great idea for them to more stringently regulate the pharmaceutical industry... There are plenty of other areas of "human necessity" where the goverment should take a more active role. Luxury items such as automobiles don't fit that bill....

It was Hugo that brought up the point that in Russia, Cuba, their economies failed, and was attributing such failure to government controlled industries. When I clarified reasons for failure in the said countries, your claws came out.... I believe that I have previously addressed the issues a day or two ago... However, the big drive to "stop those parasites from getting overpaid" seems to be driven by other than practical interest in our economy. You suggest that LCBO employees do not have to compete in the same free-market economy as the rest of us.... Do they not have to compete with other people trying to get these "decent jobs". You go on to suggest that they should upgrade their skills or enter another profession before they can make $17/hour ???? $17/hour.... come on... that is not a professional wage...

Most of the job loss in the Canadian auto industry is due to downturns in sales. As you have noted in another forum, the auto industry prefers Ontario over Michigan. They're going to make the cars... either here or in the USA... and they prefer here... What a nice piece of drama writing... Actually, the jobs aren't too bad. They rotate between jobs so no-one is stuck in the same job for more than an hour at a stretch... Because of the unions, working conditions are very good. I had suggested that they (the workers) would howl if the union stepped out of the way and their wages and working conditions dropped to where you would advocate.... The unions are what keep Ontario's auto workers from Indonesian style working conditions. They (the unions) also keep morale up at work, with good working conditions... and is probably why Oshawa's GM plant has been rated the most productive GM plant in North America for several years running now....

Jack Layton didn't enforce his ideals on our society. He just helped keep Paul Martin honest. Paul Martin promised to do all of these things in his election campaign... he did not promise additional tax cuts for corporations. A lot of people presumably voted for Paul Martin due to his left-leaning platform. Jack Layton just kept Paul Martin honest.... Doing the things that he promised to do to make our society a little better....

And I say, as a Canadian, that the West and America in particular is headed on the correct course. So there. I don't understand how you can call anything a total failure, or a total success. It's <{POST_SNAPBACK}> America is putting gas on a fire.... Which is the correct course if you want a really big fire. Most people, or at least the ones with common sense, would rather not have a big fire.... It is interesting that you don't understand what a total failure is.... I suppose it depends on your perspective though... If getting your hands on Iraqi oil is part of the objective, then the USA was successful. Who cares that tens of thousands of Iraqis have died, heck, even about 1800 Americans... Who cares if terrorists are pouring into Iraq from all over the world... And some of them will be setting their sites on America... Operation Iraqi Liberation was a success.... And who cares if we need armed guards on our local subway stations, searching peoples bags, etc....

And you're wrong, plain and simple. Home Depot has promised its cashiers that none of them will lose their jobs from self-checkouts and none of them have. And I don't believe there was only 1 cashier working at around 1pm on a sunday afternoon. Either there were sick calls and that was the reason for the problem, or you were in a terribly slow store that just didn't need that many cashiers. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Promises, promises..... Dalton McGuilty made lots of promises, and what did that protect us from.... If the company was really concerned with not making customers wait, they have some choices... and one of them is hiring more staff... They didn't make that choice... so I think that their direction should be clear to you.... unless you cant see the trees for the forest. And I'll concede that you were right about only one cashier.... I didn't count the woman watching everyone at the self-checkout counters..... There was one cashier, and one checkout lady.... And a bunch of un-manned checkout counters.... PS: I have nothing against Home Depot, but I will not use their self-checkout job stealers... But shouldn't we be talking about Ontario being better than Michigan because of our wonderful socialized medicine ????..

The NDP got power in Ontario during a severe recession. At the same time, Darlington power plant came online, and the cost of building the plant was suddenly added to the province's books, hugely increasing our provincial deficit. (Previously it had been illegal to charge for the construction of a nuclear power plant until it generated power). Bob Rae had an uphill battle. At the time, they were not prepared to govern, as they didn't expect to win. I take my hat off to Bob Rae with his implementation of the "Social Contract", wherein all public servants kept their jobs, but lost 2 weeks pay. He could have done like Mike Harris, and just laid off thousands of employees... example: Mike Harris laid off every single environmental inspection agent in the province (until just after Walkerton) Mike Harris laid off thousands of nurses. Mike Harris laid off thousands of "lazy" teachers. Mike Harris cut off social assistance to the poorest single mothers... to a susistance level... But Mike Harris did all this when the province was in good financial order.... so that the money from all of these wages could be paid as "tax returns", mostly going to the wealthiest people in the province. The difference, Bob Ray's socialistic policies valued the livelihood of thousands of public employees, so all of them felt a little discomfort, but none had their lives crushed. Mike Harris, on the other hand didn't care about the thousands of lives that were crushed by his evil and mean-spirited policies.

You might not know this, but you CANNOT fly to Cuba from the United States. You cannot do business with Cuba if you are a resident of the United States. This embargo has been in place for over 40 years. I was not suggesting that Canada is the country that is responsible for the illegal embargo against Cuba.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Many American citizens will fly to Canada -> Cuba or Mexico -> Cuba to go there. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Besides which, a law passed by the US government barring it's citizenry from travelling to a particular isn't unconstitutional, and therefore not illegal. Unless you're from Planet Turtle Bay. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> According to the United Nations, implementation of such an embargo for such an extended period of time is, according to international law, illegal. The fact that some Americans go through Canada or Mexico to visit Cuba does not change the fact that the USA has an embargo, and will not allow flights to leave the USA and travel to Cuba..... This embargo has kept the people of Cuba poor... In this way, the US can blame the "failure of communism" and other left-leaning governing styles for keeping the people poor....