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I know of several people who work at either Ford or GM. Most of them have fairly good lives, with all of the latest toys, holidays, etc... If it weren't for the unions, their lives would not be nearly so good. I imagine if the union stepped out of the way, these same people would become slightly more bitter and poisoned.... In fact you'd probably hear the howls for many miles. Because it wouldn't take long before the wage reductions were installed, the job security removed, and the working conditions harshened.

You might not know this, but you CANNOT fly to Cuba from the United States. You cannot do business with Cuba if you are a resident of the United States. This embargo has been in place for over 40 years. I was not suggesting that Canada is the country that is responsible for the illegal embargo against Cuba....

The labur market may regulate itself somewhat. In Indonesia, it regulates itself... Management will invariably try to push wages downward. In a union shop, there is a chance for the employees to fight for wages that they can live on... In the local variety store, they can rely on finding desperate enough people to work for the minimum wage. I think that the government, as a responsible employer should pay a wage large enough for the employee to live off. Especially noting that the company is running at a HUGE profit..... I dont begrudge these employees making $17/hour.... It's not that much.... If they were paid $40/ hour, I might tend to sympathize with your argument....

This was at 1:00 PM on a Sunday afternoon... most probably in a different city from the one you work and live in.... where maybe they brought them in earlier than in your city.... I still assert that the self-checkouts are replacements for jobs. I would imagine that the cashiers (and other employees) in your store looked at these new machines with suspicion and unease when they were first installed. The Home Depot management will tell you that the machines are just an extra, to make sure that customers are dealt with in a timely manner... But then again, that's what they said about instant tellers (ATM machines). Have you walked into a Bank of Montreal in the past while and seen just how many "customer service professionals" are in there to help you.... We both know that it is a much smaller number than before the advent of the instant teller. So when we have the next economic downturn, you may lose a cashier or two... that won't be replaced.... Would you think that these would be a good idea at the LCBO ??? They could get rid of some of those overpaid employees......

The fact that you could compare my views with George Bush's actions astounds me. Hitler put forth policies that aimed to help the majority of the Germans who elected him. He created Volkswagon to manufacture a car that everyone could afford, and he "got rid of Jews that were wrecking their economy". The Jews were not in the majority that elected Hitler, so do you think that his actions were OK.??? I should hope you would think not. Our government should look at all of its people, and not target segments as Mike Harris and Adolph Hitler did. Harris hurt targeted segments of Ontarians to provide a large tax return for the wealthiest group of Ontarians...... Without any care about how much he hurt Ontario's poorest.... The language in your comment (above) would suggest that you believe that once elected with a majority goverment, the government should be able to "do what they want".... I beg to differ in opinion with you.... Where your statments would back the actions of both Hitler and Harris, I think our goverments should be responsible to hold a higher moral position. (Note: Cybercoma, thanks for the inspiration. Do you have any more Hitler quotes you can share with us...

Maybe the Home Depot in your neighbourhood happened to have four cashiers on that last time you were at it, but as I described, there was only one cashier on duty, and four or 5 empty checkout counters... I refused to go through the "self checkout", and hence had to wait 10 minutes... and I complained to the manager about it .... Those self-checkouts are so that the company does not have to pay staff to deal with customers... You need your head examined if you think that there is any other reason for them... It might seem like a good idea that companies should be able to replace their minimum wage jobs with machines... they'll pay for themselves fairly quickly... and those employees can go to the unemployment or welfare lines... You claim to be an authority on Home Depot... and based on this, you can provide me with factual information.... Your credibility is still lacking... because you haven't provided any credintials or statement of relationship to the firm... Do you walk by Home Depot on your way to school ????

Our price is way higher than the price of wine and beer in the United States. The reason? Higher tax on alcohol. The price won't go down if the government taxes alcohol to the point of it not being profitable for stores to sell it for less. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Maybe we could cancel our public health insurance so that we could be as good as the United States.... Maybe we should let millions of people live in abject poverty, then we can get beer for $0.50 cheaper... Wouldn't that make us a better country.... like the USA.

Wow.... but wouln't they have to pay for stamps to send the cheque... which goes to show that you aren't completely thinking it through.... (sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell)

(Side points) USSR - Bankrupted by cold war with United States. CUBA - Economically choked by ongoing illegal US embargo A parasitic existance.... you guys really seem to have it out for anyone who is paid enough to survive.... $34K/year... you begrudge that income... and call them parasites... (It only makes me wonder how much money you guys make, and following this, how come you don't have a job that pays a huge take-home pay of about $2000/month... not enough for a mortgage on a shack if you have to buy diapers an pay to run an automobile)...... perhaps a reflection on your mean-spirited conservative attitudes, or perhaps jealousy) I think it is a good thing that the government doesn't embrace slave labour (minimum wage labour), and that the government's wage reflects the cost of living... not how badly you can get away with paying someone...

" ... and the rest lost their jobs to pay for that standard of living ???? Now those with the higher standard will lose their jobs...." Are these statements based on any kind of fact, or reasonable theories ???? I think you can look at companies for the loss of jobs. The insatiable appetite of stockholders for growth of profit has a lot to answer for..... I was in a Home Depot the other day, and there were 5 'checkouts' where a cashier would have rung in your order. There were also 4 'self scan' stations that didn'r require a cashier.... and four of the five cashiers lights were out.... Four jobs replaced with machines.... Is that the union's fault ???

Excellent. I take it Jack Layton can be counting on your vote next election !!!

I don't think it matters what kind of light you use, Paul Martin is a FISCAL CONSERVATIVE!!!!!

And if Mirror's posts were all right-wing, would it be OK ??? It's nice to see someone exploring other than the extreme right. And I say that his posts are WELCOME, and very good for debate.... PS. Cybercoma: I like your Hitler quote. It goes well with the conservative policy you espouse....

I think I've mentioned it before... Paul Martin was reading his throne speech in January?? I was in the next room, and had to look at the TV, because it sounded like Jack Layton had written the speech.... So obviously, Martin knows that people are concerned with the current state of affairs in federal politics... And then Martin got elected, and pushed for a corporate tax reduction that was NOT IN HIS PLATFORM.... while forgetting some of the more socialistic issues of his platform. Thank God for Jack Layton... who at leasted tried to keep Paul Martin honest to his espoused intentions.... in doing sok Layton showed Canada that his party, the NDP was the only party putting the welfare of Canadians above the welfare of corporate Canada.

What's wrong with a government saying "health care for everyone"... "Nobody's left out".... My statement that a government should "put people first" should be obvious.... The governement is elected by the people, and is supposed to represent the people who elected them... However, if those elected officials go down a path that harms large segements of the population in order to please business interests, I think we have a problem.... One simple example. Do you remember the Harris government's mean-spirited policy of reduction of aid to single mothers. When some of the "lefty" crowd pointed out that the goverment had cut their welfare benefits to below the levels that one could eat every day, the Harris goverment published a diet that these single mothers could eat and feed their kids with.... And they could meet the budget if two of their dinners were were "Pasta, cooked with no sauce".... I have a hard time thinking of a more mean-spirited government than Mike Harris's government.... He would have single mothers starve so he could give a larger tax return to the millionaires of the province....

I have to wonder if your boss isn't paying you too well... Because if they dropped your wage to the minimum, then your boss would surely drop the price of his goods to everyone, sales would go up, and he could hire a few more minimum wage workers... Would you like that to happen to your job... I think not... I'm a big believer in "do unto others". Otherwise, if you don't want the same thing to happen to you, then you are risking a position of hypocracy..... Do you really think that removing the LCBO in favour of corner store liquor sales is going to provide a huge drop in the price of alcohol, or that the province is going to reap the same kind of income on such a system.??? I think that corner store owners will make more money, but prices won't come down.... Many people employed at the LCBO would lose their "good jobs", and the people who were paid a pittance to work at the corner store.... well, they'll still be paid a pittance. What's more, is that the selection of alcohol will be decimated, as small stores will not have the huge purchasing power that the LCBO has... ( The LCBO is the largest single purchaser of wine in the world). So, lets tally up the benefits.... Loss of job good jobs (whose tax deduction is at least half of the corner store employee's wages). Less provincial income (requiring an income tax hike) Less selection of product, Essentially no reduction in price (as small stores don't have the purchasing power to get the prices that our giant purchaser has) If I were to put all these together, and include your point, quoted at the top, it seems that privatization of the LCBO would be a very foolish thing to do....

Maybe they should target your job... You're probably overpaid, since you have so much time off to hang out on these chat lines... Or do we have to be a little bit hypocritical when it come to your wages.... Good point!! I think most of the readers of this forum will relate to how someone making $17/hour is really like the NHL players.... making a million dollars per year... Really good point

The National Post, The Globe and Mail, The Toronto Sun... The Financial Post.. Anything that Conrad Black owned: Accorging to the CBC, "By the 1990s Hollinger controlled 60 per cent of Canadian newspaper titles, as well as hundreds of dailies in the U.S., England, Australia and Israel. " However, I don't recomend that you read them, as their obvious bias and distortion of facts could have you leaning to the right.... I recommend the Toronto Star....

Spain, France, Germany and Britian until Thatcher fixed the place. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> When you say "Thatcher fixed the place", I take it to mean the same kind of fixing that a veteranarian does to a female dog ??? I have British relatives who would tell you of the havoc that Thatcher played on their economy... making all of the working class poorer... privatizing gas, electricity, rail service with the result of massive escalation in cost of living.... making the divide between the rich and the rest much larger... Spain, France, and Germany all treat all of their people much better than you would have our government treat ours. Their child care programs are outstanding compared to anything in North America (Ask Hilary Clinton who authored a report to the US government saying so) They have true universal health care - everyone is covered. They have family allowance plans, where every family receives so much money per child. For instance, in Germany, 10 years ago, a family with three children would receive about $350/month in family allowance (a rich family would only get $228/month). These countries pay between 90 and 100% of wages for maternity leave for up to a year... In short, these European countries treat their people very well. They have excellent support systems so nobody left out. They have health care, income protection, housing allowances, and so much more that we do. Granted, they don't have as many SUVs, or ATVs. They don't work around the clock to afford the toys that North Americans need to prove to their neighbours that they are successful. But they don't have the millions living in abject poverty that North America has..... poverty that comes with right-wing, conservative-type success-driven ideology.... Maybe they have smaller GNP's, but they live better than the average North American...

I think fair market value is has been determined by our provincial government and its unions. What you call an inflated wage is, as I think I've already expressed, certainly not enough to live comfortably by... Why should they live in poverty... just because some variety store owners makes their employees live that way... I'll agree with you about doctors though... I think they should be better paid. I was suprised at how little my GP makes when he told me... What I think we need is a more honest government who, when they say the're putting more money into health care, aren't just giving a construction contract to one of their cronies (as seems to be the regular procedure in Ontario).

I want a goverment that puts its people first.... Mike Harris's regime was nothing like this. He took from Ontario's citizens to give to the people who needed it least. I hope Ontario learns for more than just a few years that conservative politics only hurt citizens.... But one thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.... and we'll probably be back down that path again....

Wow, it's amazing that you can pretend that you don't understand that unions represent workers... (yep, the people that work in factories, etc...)... The NDP also puts other special interest groups (like the poor, the citizens of Canada, etc..) before corporate interests. And that's how it should be. Government should represent its citizen's first. It's hard to comprehend your ridiculous claims that the NDP see enterpreneurs and business as inherently evil.... Did you come up with that all by yourself??? The right-wing parties, and people with ridiculous redneck opinions would have the public believe that the NDP could not run a government, because they are ignorant of the conservative ways.... Big money wants supports this, because they don't want the country's wealth distributed more evenly.... But when you think of it.... the NDP (then CCF) got us health care, unemployment insurance, and old age pensions... The right wing parties fought these "commie" ideas as being "anti-business"... Aren't you glad that not all Canadians are rednecks, so the left-wing parties get enough seats to have a chance to implement (or force a minority government) to implement these types of policies. And, your claims about Europe... how about naming a country... (You can look up Europe on Google).

Unions certainly have their place, and have brought up the standard of living for a great percentage of North Americans. And it's not like General Motors has been suffering for all these years.... The economy, and specifically the cost of oil, has had more to do with weak auto sales recently than anything else.... In "socialist" Canada, as you would probably describe it, the climate is more favourable than in the almighty USA for manufacturing cars.... The explanation was previously expressed (above).... or was your head in the sand for that one too. Note that in countries like Indonesia, they don't have labour unions.... And what is the standard of living in those countries... how about the working conditions.....

From the numbers that Renegade quoted on the previous page, an LCBO employee is paid $34.5K/yr, going up to $40K/yr after 5 years of service. I don't know about you, but I don't consider these wages to be excessive. In fact, with $34K/year, your take-home pay would be in the range of $25.5K/year, or about $2000 per month. I don't know how much money you live on, but I don't think this is excessive. If this person is from a single income household, and owns a vehicle, they are probably not doing very well... and you begrudge this level of wage... I don't understand... The LCBO is an incredibly well run store. They are always impeccably clean, well stocked, and should you need assistance, they are always professional and courteous. I think they are doing a great job, and I don't begrudge them making enough money to pay their rent... (notice, I said rent, because on that wage, you'd be hard pressed to purchase a house without a significant other)

Who's saying tht we should "give in" to the grievances of the murderers. Why not try to understand why they do what they do.... You can choose to stick your head in the sand and believe that they "hate freedom".... or you can recognize that what they really hate is "American Foriegn Policy"... Here's another way of looking at the Iraqi war... It was originally going to be called Operation Iraqi Liberation But that spells too close to the truth, so they had to change the last word to Freedom...