Army Guy

Charles Anthony: Actually those comments made by Retired Maj Gen Lewis MacKenzie were taken from a E-mail that the Maj Hess-von Kruedener ( the CDN that was killed) Had wrote to the CBC, whom was on the ground in fact he had been on the ground for over 9 months , so he may have known what he was talking about. The fact that he mentions that the UN outpost was being targeted out of tactical nessicity means that there had to have been hezbullah around that postion. KEEP IN MIND this was for the press and and he could not come out and state the Hezbullah postions. As that would not be keeping with the neutrality that being a UN observer requires. My Webpage The more i read your post the more i am convinced that you are talking out your ass. The entire nation was a huge cold war wpns storage facility. The was and still is more than enough wpns and munitions in that country to have 10 wars. Yes the serbs grab a majority of that but all sides had enough equipment and arms to kill each other many times over. Yes, the Serbs controlled a vast amount of the military equipment, but you failed how did the crotian and muslim forces arm themselfs. thru the same military warehouse as the serbs. My Webpage My Webpage The UN did not run away, that BN at srcbrenica was full of Dutch logistical pers not soldiers. they did what they could or what they were capable of. It's easy after many years to put the blame on someone. but one has to remember these troops were surrounded by thousands of cold blooded serbs whom were more than willing to kill everyone including the UN pers. The dutch vidio everything that happened at the camp, and those logistical troops were ready to fight in fact alot of them were disarmed by thier own NCO's and officers, so not to give the serbs an excuse to slaughter them all. Which they proved by taking hundreds of UN pers hostage and practice that all sides caught on to. And to top it all off the UN "rules of egagement" did not allow UN per to directly confront anyone but just to observe. The UN left unarmed civilians in Srebrenica when Serbs over-ran the town. Everybody knows the UN ran away and left them to be slaughtered. I did. Right after he comes back from Bosnia, he went a speaking tour by Serbs. He said he did not know who paid him. That does not make him a reliable and unbiased source to me. Sorry, I do not trust his word. Again you talking half truths bending facts to suit your argument, The UN was drastically under manned ,operating under retarded ROE, and regulations, that tied both hands of every sodier over there ...when your under manned over worked you don't go and spread your forces even thinner in a active combat zone full of drunken Yugoslavians with automatic wpns.So yes there was a problem was there not. Like i said i completed 3 tours with the Canadian Military in Bosina, 1 with the UN and 2 with NATO and saw war crimes committed by all the groups involved. in fact i've complete a tour in Afgan as well and have yet to have seen the brutality i seen in bosina. So beware where you piont your finger as there is usally one pionting right back at you. He commanded an entire UN contingent of thousands of troops in a war torn country, that was ripping itself apart, and could have been alot worse if not for his direct intervention. He did all this with a price on his head, Backed up by a toothless organization that had no more control over the situation than you or i. He did this because he was a soldier and his country asked him for his services. So yes they are dramactic words. Have you served your country ? Has your country asked you for your services. SO why are you judging him when you are providing no facts to back your argument. In the military we call that talking out your ass. you can call it slander. How is your tax dollars funding Gen Mackenzie, just a few posts ago it was funded by the serbs so which is it ?

jdobbin: Your pretty quick to pull that trigger on harper, perhaps you can explain what the liberals had done in thier 12 years in office , or perhaps the NDP take on what thier policies are in regards to this matter. But if i had to compare the parties i'd have to say harper is way ahead of anthting the liberals did or want to do.

Give me a break, The Kadrs are but one example, because the kid is in a wheel chair, and requires medical attention. He is allowed to remain in Canada, and openly support terrorism, and collect his benifits...this kid is a terrorist plain and simple and should be escorted to the airport and flown to Afgan. to continue his fight Here is what a former member of the Canadian Immigration and Refugee Board commented on when asked the question ?A lot of people are saying that Canada has become a safe haven for terrorists. Do you believe that? Yes...I think many countries look upon Canada as being a welcoming country for terrorists, war criminals and so on. and then there is this from, david harris former chief of strategic planning for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) Is Canada generally becoming a safe haven for terrorists? I think there is a dire risk that is happening. We are already playing a significant role in international terrorism funding. We have 50 terrorist organizations of a variety of descriptions here, and a good number of those are the so-called the world class ones. So I think that we can no longer afford to be naïve, and we need to see the political will to take some more control of the situation. My Webpage So to answer your question ? Is Canada letting them off the hook , i would answer yes, there is very little being done to say they are making it difficult for terrorist to operate in Canada.

Thats not what i was impling, what i was saying is that we should be cleaning these orgs out of Canada, and send them back to where they came from.

I think most have forgot that Canada has joined the WAR on terror, last time i checked Canada has declared the Hezbullah a terrorist organization. It's not a big deal, but it should be checked into. I agree that Canada needs to clean out it's own backyard, that means shipping out all these terrorist bastards, and thier fund raising cronies back to where they came from.

Geoffrey: Those actions are to contain the Hezbullah, make it very difficult for them to be resupplied, to move around etc.. The bombings of car convoys I agree with you they are counter productive to everthing. If one was to look at a Sat image of these towns one would find that selective targets have be destroyed, entire cities and towns have not been razed to the ground, as the hezbullah would suggest.. Compared to what, Compared to the dresden bombings during WWII, compared to the Cambodian killings, compared to the genicide in Rwanda, Dafur etc. ( there are many dozens more ) Why is it that a few hundred lebanonese die and the world screams , and kicks it feet demanding that these Jewish killers be stopped NOW...They've gone to far... Could it be that the Hezbullah has a highly tuned PR department, and is posting pictures of the dead on every media network available...And we in the west get sick to our stomachs at the sight of a dozens dead lebanonese children, So WHY this cause, why are we in the west so concerned and demanding imediate action ? When the west sat down a debated for weeks on end over the Rwanda crisies, hell we are still debating Dafur. Perhaps we should see the problem for what it really is, most of Lebanons military (est strength just over 70,000) is based in the north. WHY is that, to fend off Syria, NO, To control the northern christian population perhaps, or is it that the south already has a recongized militant miltia called the Hezbullah to defend lebanons southern borders ? I say recongized because that is what the government of lebanon has stated, So why is it that a recongized militia of lebanon allowed to wage war with Israel, and then act shocked when Israel decides to punish a country that has attacked them. When lebanon offically recongized them as a military force there actions became thier actions of lebanon, with the support of it's government, it's people. Can't have your cake and eat it to, You can't have a recongized military force engage in terrorist activities then claim they have no control over them... They (The Governmant) have the miliatry force and capibilities to police them, they just perfer not to, made clear by thier absolute lack of action, be it for not wanting a civil war, or betting that Israel would not re-occupy them. Lebanon has made a clear choice and have publically stated they would defend thier Hezbullah brothers if Israel invaded. My Webpage

jdobbin: There will be an investiagation, conducted by everyone and his dog, what will it prove. Yes the building was targeted, yes, it was destroyed by Israelis airforces. Will it answer the question Was it delibertly targetted with the intention of killing Un observers...NO...will it clearly define who is at fault, be it the UN for not pulling out its troops or Israelis for not firing on that grid square, or the hezbullah for building defensive postions around the UN complex...NO...NO...and NO... What the investagation will reveil is the events that lead up to the tragic death of one of our Soldiers, and perhaps why this tragic accident happened. It's a little late to be covering up thier asses now is it not, why now, why did Soldiers have to die before they took action... OK, that is her opinion, just like yours, and others on this board, But let me ask you this WHY is it that the MAJ himself did not believe this, he was on the ground, had over 9 months experiance doing that very job, has other combat experiance, has done plenty of other UN and NATO Missions WHY is it he does not believe that the UN OP was deliberatly targeted to kill UN observers. UN does not report back to our goverment on a regular basis on exactly where each one of it's troops are, and what they are doing. In fact our soldiers that are part of a UN mission are responseable to an entire different chain of command of which our goverment is not part of. So why would our goverment know his exact postion or his exact mission ?. Now your saying that because the government does not read the papers there at fault ? Now your making assumptions again, picture your self in a modern fighter a/c traveling over 600 MPH in a dive your only concern is lining up the target on the black and white monitor, while checking for other threats such AA,AAA, ground fire, once that is done you release your bombs at a minimum alt of 5000 ft and then pull out, meaning that the alt you pick out the target is 3 times that....You still think there is no room for human error...what can you see from 15,000 feet can you make out colors, can you see a 3 foot high markings with UN printed on it. But your saying he should have been able to ID the color of the building and the UN markings. Your full of it...this is not a vidio game but the real thing...

Charles Anthony: Maybe you should read the quote again, It was not deliberate targeting of the UN post, but rather of Tactical necessity meaning the hezbullah have strong postions around the UN OP, suggesting that the Hezbullah was in fact using it as a form of shield. Perhaps you can show me and the others were your proof of the BS you are posting here. Show us where is neutrality and credibility is broken.. Because he has spoken out to the world and saying that the serbs were not the only people commiting war crimes, to correct a perception of what the world has ,including yourself. No where does he say that the serbs did not commit any crimes just that they were not the only ones. I spent 3 tours of duty in Bosina and served under Retired Maj General Mackenzie for one of them. Unless you served in Bosina and seen first hand what the facts are then your comments are coming out your ass. Even to suggest that his neutrality and credibility are questionable is unproven slander of a man whom has served his country with honour and pride.

Im finding it hard to still believe that you guys are still questioning "WHO"S at fault". Ive post the below link twice already and i'll post it again. It was written by The Very Canadian soldier whom was tragically killed. Whom do we believe, the guy on the ground, or the current media hype, or speculation of those on this board. My Webpage for those of you whom can't work the link button: I think his statement answers a few questions, Like was it deliberate not according to the Major it was not. Why were they there, There Observation post is on the high ground, so they can observe any violations to the UN accords regarding Lebanon and Israel. Unforutunaly the high ground was also where the Hezbullah had built up thier defenses, which would explain the many close calls the UN OP had had. Which brings us to this piont, Why did the UN OP not just pull out ? Because the UN did not order or arrange to have them pulled out that is why. Instead they continued to inform someone in the Israelis chain of command that there were numerous close calls and could they stop attacking that specific grid square. But whom in the Israelis chain of command did they speak with, obviously not the Israelis forward observers, ( the guys calling in airsrikes, arty strikes making corrections "the guys on the ground"etc) but instead some higher formation which would have taken some time to relay this info down to the Israelis units on the ground. Which could have taken some time, as they were in the middle of conducting a massive amount of troops. which leads to this question Did the UN request to the Isrealis to have the UN guys removed ? As this has happened many times before, That the Israelis goverment had warned the UN of the up coming attack and told the UN to remove it's observers, or the have gone into areas and forcable removed UN observers in order to ensure there safety. The piont i'm making is these UN soldiers safety does not lie with the Israelis, Nor with our goverment, but with the UN chain of command. Recording violations to an accord that was clearly a mout piont at the time of the attack on the outpost. I know it is difficult to understand unless you have experianced combat, and all the confusion it creates but incidents like these are common in a war zone, an accidents like these are bound to happen. a good example is the targeting of Canadian soldiers by an US F-16 in afgan.

To all you non believers: Here is an E-mail from the Canadian Maj sent days before his death. He is an infantry officer whom has plenty of combat experiance, and UN experiance. Another piont to note, there post is to observe violations to the orginal UN peace accords, to record history. In that regard Israel had made thier mission kind of a mout piont with thier current operations. What we did not know is why thier post was not evacuated or pulled back, perhaps the UN wanted eyes on the ground. The UN chain of command knew everything that was going on and could have pulled these guys out at any time, but chose not to ,These are the guys that are responsable for thier safety. My Webpage

CNN is this not the same media outlet that had reported there was WMD in Iraq. There is the proof CNN has reported it. It must be true. The fact that the UN outpost had reported 14 close calls since tues, was not a sign to the UN commander to pull this outpost into safety or atleast move it. Acidents happen in war, all of them tragic your report is nothing more than here say. Here is another link written by a Canadian Maj on the ground. and he says it ws not intentional. to whom do we believe. My Webpage

kindred: What is the differance between Dafur or Afganistan, are one people worth more than the other. alot of canadians are making decisions on afgan based on what they concieve as an American operation. And don't give a rats ass about the afgans that are being helped. Canadians have no one to blame but themselfs when it comes to the lack of resources to send support to multi countries at the same time. very few even raised an eyebrow when the Military was been slashed, to pay for our social programs and PM legacy projects. Canadians don't give rats ass about anything that does not effect them personal," OH yes the new generation of Canadians we are very vocal, peace loving, and very polite, very anti american. But when shown the costs of thier complaints, whines and bulbbering they quickly sit down and shut up. In fact our current PM has done more for the military than any party has in the last 20 years.

BD: I think people tend to forget that the Hizbullah is an terrorist org, which has been attacking Israel on a regular basis, and lebanon refuses to comply with any of the UN resolutions that brought about the Israelis withdrawal in the first place. If the UN was not just a powerless org, they could have enforced those resolutions. Your suggesting that Israel set up some form of payment to get lebanon to comply. then what do you think the Lebanese gov't will have a change of heart, and make the bad men go away. Actually the Hezbullah have won all 23 seats in southern lebanon, and they make very clear of there objectives. My Webpage Are you kidding me, how does a group win all the seats available, and the mass of southern lebanese not fully support there activities. They may not apply to all but the majority yes. These terroists need to be hunted down and destroyed, before there is any chance of peace. lebanon has forced that option on Israel through there lack of action on UN resolutions, and by there support of the Hez. Lebanon, has to take responsiabilty for it's own inactions, and creating this situation, they are getting what they sow, but ya they can act in thier own defense, in fact the more the better. Good come back, lets not hold the lebanese gov't responsable because they have just taken power. In fact they never even addressed the issue, instead they have shown thier support for the Hizbullah. In fact members of the hez actually control all the seats in southern lebanon, and are recongized as the ligimate freedom fighting force. and when they act or terrorize they act as the lebanonese gov't. How many acts of war does Israel have to endure until the west finally say OK you can punish them. Or is it all right to send suicide bombers into another country, or launch rockets into thier cities. Moral division, lets talk about moral division shall we. what did the west say or do when Russia used chemical warfare on chechen rebels, killing thousands. what did the west do when thousands of rwandians were killed with machettes. and yet a years later nobody cares. So why when Israel acts everyone is in shock and gasps "those damn jews" look what they are doing to those poor terrorists, and thier supporters, we need to do something about that. Yes we do need to do something, we in the west need to sit down a figure out just how far we need to go to wiping out terrorists and then do it. show them that if you or your group commits terrorist acts this is what is going to happen.

Sorry double post.

BD: I disagree, paying a bribe for peace is blackmail. I mean that is what it is ,is it not "for peace we will give you x amount in economic aid". To a people you have vowed to push all the jews into the sea... I will agree with you that Israel military actions todate have not produce many results...but i personally believe it's because they have not gone far enough, due to western perception and restraints. Your right, they are sympathetic to the Hizbulluh, this is very evident when thier goverment has refused to take action against them, has publically said they will assist the terrorist if lebanon is invaded. In other words they have made thier choice already. That being said they did have the choice to disarm them to aviod a full invasion, and have peace with Isreal. below is what Israel had asked for and the basis for UN resolution 425: you tell me if they were asking for to much. My Webpage Well the Hizbulluh has alot of time to prepare for such an invasion, "The IDF discovered that Hizbullah has established a Viet-Cong-style network of tunnels and trenches close to the Israeli border, providing shelter for its operatives and their weapons" something you don't do unless your actually expecting a full invasion, alluding that a full invasion was something they were working towards gording Israel into. And then there is this statement made by Israelis defense pers: My Webpage I don't know if this link will work but if you want i can provide the entire art, it's out of Janes defense weekly. And another piont to note is that the Israelis army has yet to cross the border in force, and have not really engaged these troops with all their mech forces but rather foot patrols supported with a few tanks. They are all the same, all palestinians all working towards the same goal.

BD: How many times do you do this, when do you step it up when it shows no results, how many times have we read in the papers that Israel has bombed targets in lebanon. And what exactly do you mean as carrot, what do you offer them, a slice of Israel, they'll have to get in line... Do you truely believe Israel has not done this already. You keep saying this, perhaps the will is not there, I'm sure they will find the will to defend themselfs again'st Israel tho. Lebanon has a standing army of just over 75,000, somewhat larger than ours...then again everyone's army is larger....But more than capable of taking out a few thousand terrorist. My Webpage If they are sympathetic for the PLO then they have clearly stated thier postion as they have done on TV already. They have decided that the PLO is worth defending. making thier country a target for Israelis gunners. So where does this leave Israel "whom needs to defend it's citizens from further attacks" , Lebanon has drawn the line in the sand, and said we will fight on the PLO side. and the PLO must be eliminated to stop the attacks on Israel. Does not leave much room for carrot does it. SO what does Israel do. and better yet, how do you think an lebanon invasion will effect the gaza strip. perhaps Israel will move on both.

Kindred: Just one question for you how does this relate to my question of perhaps you can show us a link on how Israel was carved out of lebanese territory... you have yet established how Isreal was created out lebanese territory, The british mandate was the beginings of the state of Israel and the French mandate was the creation of lebanon around the same time. so how could Isreal been carved out Lebanon. Did you even read the history lesson you posted. Try this link and tell me if both are related. My Webpage

Flea bag: This is not really my Speciality, but there is some unclassified military info available, unfortunatly not much different than what is available on the net. According to my sources The MTHEL proto type has not been produced due to funding cuts. What has been developed is the THEL a non mobile version ( it has very limited mobility). it's size is extremily large and it must be lacated next a large power source. This project is Co owned by Isreal and the US. It's main problem is the US has cut funding to it in 2004 so when an MTHEL proto type is available for deployment is unknown at this time. What my sources do say is Israel is using the radar to use as a warning system but no laser , no mention if Israel is continuing research on it's own .. Sorry can give you any links to my sources., but here is some data on it i found on the net, My Webpage My Webpage

BD: Perhaps you can name one that has not been tried, and has shown results. Results for both sides. Not that the military one has produced any results either, but it seems this is the only one the palestinains understand. Do you not think that an independant,and stable democratic state, first responsabilty is to ensure that it stayed that way.( i mean this is what they want is peace right) ...but knowing that Isreal has warned them countless times to control them or face Israel direct military action, in fact sign treaties with them to control the PLO. So if the lebanese have chosen the lesser of to evils , then i guess they made the wrong choose, let me ask you this, would you as leader of that nation decide to take on the PLO or Israel. There must be a pay out it is why everone makes decisions,(starting to sound like DR Phil) lets face it Israel is not very popular in the middle east, so a guy running for office could pick up alot votes for taking a stand against israel,maintianing the status Quo (a big risk) except now they are faced with the reality that Israel is now piosed for an invasion. No doubt many turned a blind eye to Hizbullah's action in the south, not anticipating hat Israel would punish all of Lebanon for that organizations actions. In addition, Hizbullah is the only active militia organization in Lebanon and only armed force outside of the majority Shiite national army. So not only was there a lack of will to do anything about Hizbullah (its harrassment of Israel being preferable to civil war), but there's a lack of ability.

BD: It's not revelant is it, it's not revelant to this debate, it's not revelant because it's an emotional rant based on only half the story and a few pictures. As you suggested below it solves nothing The Hamas and Hezbullah are one and the same people they are palestinians,or PLO, masters of of twisting the truth, but then again so is Israel and the rest of the middle east. whoms to blame this is the question everyone wants to know, better yet what is the solution, history has already shown us there is NO way the palestinians are going to live in peace next to israel no matter what concessions Israel makes. And now we act as if we are shocked when Israel takes the only remaining solution left, give me a break. Why is it agains't the law to aid and abed a criminal in the west. Terrorist are criminals are they not, So why is it so hard for Canadians to two and two together. The country of lebanon has done nothing to expell or control PLO gangs of thugs that operate freely within it's borders agains't Israel. A country with an elected goverment by lebanese citizens that has a sizable army that could counter this problem....Do you think lebanon is not aiding them, protecting them under the national flag of lebanon...These are the same people who are shocked by Israelis actions, condemning them, condemning them for what protecting thier own citizens from rocket attacks, sucide bombers.

Kindred: Where did you get this info ? perhaps you can show us a link on how Israel was carved out of lebanese territory... Maybe you should do alittle research on lebanon or for that matter Israel. My Webpage This is your personal opinion, of course if you were actually an Israelis citizen living in fear of rocket attacks or sucide bombers you'd have another opinon. Here in Canada we forget all the advantages we take for granted on a daily basis, sending your kids off to school and not having to worry if they will return alive, or just going to the mall without fear of being blown up. It's easy for us to judge Israel from our armchairs here in Canada. You have not shown anything other than an emotional response ,nor have you gather all the facts. Yes you've seen a few pictures of dead lebanese children, and they have done what they were intended to do , invoke an emotional response from us that live in the west. But what of the dead Israelis children, those killed in rocket attacks or sucide bombings did they not invoke a response. There is always two sides of the story, any journalist knows this, and all you've down so far is prove that a journalist your not. What is your piont are you saying Lebanon has not recieve backing from Syria, or any other arab country ? Are you saying that even after over 200 US marines were killed by terrorists operating in lebanon that the Lebanonese gov't was suppose to control, that lebanon would be on top of the aid list. Give me a break, they should be happy with the amount of Aid the US does send them. Another well thought out decision made by a teenager. Who cares, the lebanese have already made that decision years ago, by allowing the Hez to set up shop, even allowing them to kill of thousands of lebanese citizens. and still they do nothing to control them or to expell them. They are as guilty as the hez themselfs for sitting idle and doing nothing but watching these terrorist run wild. Now they will have a front row seat once again as Israelis army knocks on thier door. perhaps this time Israel will drive the hez into the extinct column of mankind.

Machinations: Lets start from the beginning shall we. Yes Lebanon has absorbed large qtys of palestians from Isreal, But that is not what caused the civil war as you suggested, in fact Jordan expelled more palestinians into lebanon at the time than Isreal could have ever do. And it was jordans actions that were the start of lebanons problems... Yes Israel did invade in 1982, but again this conflict was well under way before this date, and if you had read the link i gave you Israel was responding to attacks agains't it juast like today.... You fail to mention that Israel does not absorb them either - even with its discrimnatory, two-tier society, Israel wishes to take their land, not the people on it.

Machinations: This country is not the 4th most powerful military nation in the world. a couple of sites does not make Isreal the 4 th most powerful military in the world, especially when your links don't work. My Webpage[/url My Webpage in fact Isreal does not even make the top 10

Geoffrey: No, but my father was involved with the canadian military operations , which did hunt them down, see there is the difference our country did take action. We did not sit by and do nothing. And yes i do think it is my personal responsiabilty to fight terrorism (but i'm a member of our miltary) not only here in Canada but overseas as well, by end month i will be departing for my 2 and tour in afgan. So let me ask you this geoffrey, would you not defend this country from terrorists, would you protect your family and what is yours. I would hope you would, i would hope all canadians would. History is full of countries that did just that, i mean hey if those damn frenchmen from France can do it, surely we could as canadians. Perhaps i'm full of shit, but as a soldier that serves his country i truely believe that other canadians would also answer the call, as our history proudly shows us we have done in the past. Yes, that is exactly what i'm saying. There are many ways to take action, just reporting terrorist activity to the authorities is taking action. And if the our government is unable to take action because it is inept, or taken over then i think that some Canadians would take matters into thier own hands in some matter. Not all action requires violence or killing.

Machinations: this is not Iran it is lebanon, they have access to travel, Home or no home i personal would not risk the safety of my family by raising them in a war torn country. come to think of it if a had a dual citizenship that decission would be an easy on would it not...It's funny how now of the newly arrived refugees have stated that they could not escape or were not permitted to travel. I may ask you the same thing professor, i hope this is not your major, i really hope history is not your job. This is the only correct statement you have made in your post But you failed to mention that Jordan orginally drove the PLO and large numbers of palistinians into lebanon when Jordan purged them from thier country. you also failed to mention that the lebanese excepted them with open arms.... My Webpage 100,000 in 12 years, how many have to be killed before the lebanese act. sounds like a place i'd like to raise a family. Below is why the civil started, "see i have google to" My Webpage The spark that ignited the war occurred in Beirut on April 13, 1975, when gunmen killed four Phalangists during an attempt on Pierre Jumayyil's life. Perhaps believing the assassins to have been Palestinian, the Phalangists retaliated later that day by attacking a bus carrying Palestinian passengers across a Christian neighborhood, killing about twenty-six of the occupants. The next day fighting erupted in earnest, with Phalangists pitted against Palestinian militiamen (thought by some observers to be from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine). The confessional layout of Beirut's various quarters facilitated random killing. Most residents of Beirut stayed inside their homes during these early days of battle, and few imagined that the street fighting they were witnessing was the beginning of a war that was to devastate their city and divide the country Perhaps you can enlighten us all on just where your getting your facts, or are you making history up as you go.