Jonsa

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I won't get into detail, but I still have trouble with circular logic and the source of what you state as fact. The knowing of God's will and intention and even his condesension. If I understand you correctly God didn't create evil - then who did? Regardless, I respect your right to your belief, even if I can't agree.

Its all spelled out in the Qu'ran. For judgement day to arrive, the world must be dar-al-salaam (house of peace) and all within must submit to the will of Allah. that's what ALL pious muslims believe or they aren't muslim. The radical Islamists believe the path to that is thru violence. The wahabbis also beleive this and are not adverse to violence when applied strategically. (those staunch american allies the Saudis are particularly to blame for the spread of that school of Islamic thought). So it is not incorrect to say that Islam as a religion envisages an end game where the world is muslim. Now you have to say to yourself, is this a practical and achievable goal? Certainly not before Islam goes through its own reformation and reconciliation. And not bloody likely even then. It makes sense to keep an eye on the loonies, but it aint worth being afraid of them.

Its stems from over 30 years of providing military hardware and training. With providing a healthy acquisition budget for the Egyptian military (you know how much boys luv their toys) and the subsequent schmoozing to ensure that they spend those bucks on US approved military suppliers creates pretty strong relationships. Then there is the cadre of trainers that accompany the hardware. then there are the lecturers at Egyptian military colleges and the exchange programs for Egyptian officers. Then there is the bi-annual Operation Bright Star the joint war games that started back in 1981. this all adds up to the observation that the US and Egyptian military are tight.

You do realize that the military has been in charge since the overthrow of Farouk, don't you. You seem to think that the power structure i.e. relationship between government and military, is the same as in western countries. Not even close. The military's bread might be buttered by the US, but they could just as easily use oil (Saudis). This "revolution" has been cheap. As for human nature, over the years I have repeatedly witnessed the anger of a people being placated by a few cosmetic political and economic scraps with the foundation of the power structure they revolted against remaining in place. I don't think that the democracy that emerges from this is going to be anything like "western style". they are very aware of the advantages but their muslim upbringing also makes them very aware of the disadvantages and those will weigh more heavily in their political development. Oh you mean, the small cadre of 325000 secret police, the thousands of officers in the military, the hundreds of top level bureaucrats, the hundreds of judges and lawyers, the business people who employ roughly 30% of the work force. Nah, you're right he didn't need many people to keep him in power over the 30 years. Please learn some facts. The 1.3 billion in US military aid - (used to buy US weapons, not finance operations), is about 20% of what the Egyptians spend on their armed forces. Saudi Arabia has already stated that if the US cuts off the dough, they'll ante up, although I'd rather have the US as an ally than the Saudis. And the small fry bureaucrats might have joined in the revolt (how do you know a significant number joined?) they are still tarred with the same corruption brush. I'd hope so too.

Hee hee. You really do go round in circles. Even when somebody agrees with you, you can't seem to take it in stride. You were the one that raised the issue of building pipelines etc without american money and when its pointed out that it can be accomplished rather easily, you respond with more sarcastic denigration. And yes Canada will continue to sign economic agreements with the US to the benefit of both parties. But I forgot, when election time comes around in the US there isn't any chest beating, or fear mongering or jingoistic flag waving that borders on the obscene. Yep, you must be proud to live in a country where the shit don't stink.

Apart from Mubarak leaving, what other changes have there been to the existing power structure? The Military is still in charge. Sulieman stays on as VP until the election as does the cabinet. The secret police, police etc are still run by the same guys. There's something like 325,000 "plain clothes" security police like the ones that attacked the protestors. The judges and prosecutors who turned a blind eye to the excesses and crimes of the power elite are still in place. For all the hopey changy thing those are the facts. Does anyone here actually beleive that these guys are just going to yield the power they have accumulated over the past 30 years without a real fight? They served up Mubarek to placate the mobs and get them back to work. Let's see if in the next few weeks they release all those political prisoners, allow more freedom of the press and enable opposition parties to form and organize. That will be the bellwether of real change.

absolutely right, we can't win a trade war with the US. OTOH, we've been known to build a pipeline or two and even the odd refinery. And you can't possibly think that we couldn't find a non-american source of capital to develop all that oil and gas? It might even go over big in the states - you know reduce dependence on foreign oil.

You watch too much Glen Beck. If you had any proof whatsoever, I'm sure the Republicans would luv to have it. But of course, truth isn't in very good supply in American Politics these days.

You mean another president that flaunts the consitution and breaks a bunch of laws?

Been watching the Egyptian "crisis" unfold like most of you. Flipping between Fox, CNN, MSNBC, BBC, CBC, CTV, AlJezeera. Seems that there are a lot of Republicans (including most of the talking heads on Fox) who beleive that Obama et al are doing a really lousy job. That mubarak leaving would most likely have disasterous effects on US interests and that the MB's acension to power would almost be guaranteed and that would really screw the US. While not coming out and blatantly stating it, but by heaping criticism and by fear mongering (forget facts) the Right seems to saying that continuing support of repressive regimes is better that democratic choice because change could be risky and the people could be exploited. (where they got that idea.....) Mindless conservatism from hypocritical constitution wavers.

I believe that all recreational drugs should be legalized and distribution controlled and taxed. DOPEC is bigger that OPEC. Of course there would have to be a number of laws to complement this such as those concerning alcohol. (driving, equipment operation, etc). There would be huge savings in law enforcement. Tax revenues would also be huge. These monies could then be channeled into health care and education with lots left over for say, reducing our national debt. I am of the opinion that all "vice" should be legalized, controlled and taxed. With the iron clad exceptions of anything that involves children or physical harm to others in which case stomp on the bastards. Don't know why we make it so lucrative for bad guys and scum. We could eliminate a very large percentage of the criminal element by legalization. We could increase government revenue astronomically. We could improve health care and education. We could focus our legal and penal systems on really bad guys and really bad crimes. But why be rational when righteous feels so much better.

sytem of what? I stand corrected. Yes it is. that does not however preclude Supreme court remedies. And there have been a few. Meaning that none of that land is "private" property. although the courts have recently held that for legal purposes leases are the equivalent of deeds. Sneaky bastards. imagine controlling the land and maneuvering to benefit jews in a jewish state. Only an idiot would not consider certain laws in Israel to be discriminatory against non-jews. As for it not being democratic, I'm think you must have a rather limited perspective on the scope of democratic government processes, structure and definitions. So Israel with its various discriminatory laws remains a vibrant democratic state. It is a representative democracy with rule of law. It has freedom of the press/speech and political expression. I shamefacedly have to agree. My bad.

I am aware of the schisms within Islam. It mirrors the Catholic/Protestant schism before the reformation but is more fundamental. The Amidyah take it farther than most shia sects. I'm not sure what you mean by progressive muslim. The MB is not a sect, if you read its bylaws you see that it is a political organization. while there are many members who consider shias to be apostates, there have been siginificant efforts on MB's part to mitigate that prejudice over the past few years. Particularly because they can see themselves politically aligned with Iran. http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=909 Wow that's a lot too chew on. Lets start with Muslim Intersectarian religious wars. Er, when and where did these take place in the last two centuries? And no, Iran/Iraq was not a religious war. Okay now spreading islam through war. Chechnya, Gaza, West Bank, Lebannon, Morocco, Libya, Algeria, Iran all have populations over 90% muslim to begin with. Philipines, China and Sudan (70% muslim) are independence movements. Politically motivated conflict, not religious. World War I? I am unclear as to what you are referring to here. The Arab Israeli wars? ENTIRELY politically motivated. I'd have to say that the Jews fleeing from Europe, weren't fleeing colonialism. I'd have to say that the 900,000 Jews expelled from arab nations weren't fleeing colonialism at all. I have to say that your interpretation is rather simplistic and imprecise. I will agree however that the roughly 200,000 immigrants from "eastern europe" and the Czech arms were absolutely critical in the war. I am not familiar with this at all. do you have a reference or link? Interesting little rant there. An interpretation of facts that I don't necessarily agree with. Don't disagree that realpolitik is opportunistic - this is no great revelation. To claim that that is the only kind political ideology is nonsensical. The definitions of colonialist, imperialist, left wing and right wing are rather precise and appropriate useage of them provide the reader/listener with clear information. I think that perhaps you take umbrage at the fact that for propaganda purposes terms are misused or twisted and hence meaningless in both content and context. (fox news are masters at this) Okay, I can see that, but I always try to use words accurately and contextually. "Colonialism is the establishment, maintenance, acquisition and expansion of colonies in one territory by people from another territory. Colonialism is a process whereby sovereignty over the colony is claimed by the metropole and the social structure, government, and economics of the colony are changed by colonists - people from the metropole. Colonialism is a set of unequal relationships: between the metropole and the colony, and between the colonists and the indigenous population." "Imperialism, n. 1. The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations. 2. The system, policies, or practices of such a government."

Specious comparison. Are you saying that retrogressive discrimination is a form of government? Jews are not an ethnicity. You'll have to rethink your definition. You really have drunk the koolaid. It is clear that discrimination exists in Israel just like it exists in pretty well every other place on the planet. In democracies, the balance and protection against that discrimination is the legal system. The JNF owns roughly 13% of Israeli land. The JNF is not the Israeli government and the lands it holds in trust are specifically to be leased to jews only - hence the name JEWISH NATIONAL FUND. The ILA administers the JNF lands. There is only about 7% of Israeli land that is available for sale. You don't seem to know exactly what the real estate structure is nor, what the laws or supreme court rulings actually say. Non-jews do not have the same access to lease any of the available land, but they do have access to most of it. They have equal access to privately owned land should it come up for sale. Of course, jews in Israel don't face the death penalty if they sell their land or their lease to an arab. I'll agree that Israel has a problem with discrimination within its society. As a matter of degree, I'd argue its not nearly as bad as the discrimination that occurs in other regional states and that Israeli victims of discrimination have recourse thru the courts. I wouldn't want to be an armenian or a kurd in turkey or a christian in Saudi Arabia or a jew in - oh wait a minute they're really hard to find in arab countries these days.

Binnie and his gang of religious maniacs give a lot of excuses for the actions and few real reasons. It all comes down to religious interpretation (thank Zawahiri for radicalizing religious fanatics). In the end its all about dar-al-salaam, a world embracing Islam paving the way for judgement day. Its pretty simple really and spelled out in detail in their book. You think Binnie cares about democracy? No he just doesn't like the existing dictators - none are worthy of being Caliph and he particularly doesn't like the Saudi Royalty, viewing them as the ultimate hypocrites corrupted by money and the West. Binnie could care less how Israel treats palestinians. there aren't many arab nations (if any) that care about the palestinians, but they sure hate Israel. Its Israel's existance (nation of jews) and the fact that what was part of the ummah is no longer. Also that pride thing of arabs getting their asses handed to them constantly by lowly jews. Western attacks on muslims is another red herring.Didn't the west defend muslims in the Balkans and in Kuwait? AQ has killed way way more muslims than they have christians or jews. AQ attacks muslims claiming they either aren't muslim enough or they are apostates. Believe AQ justifications if you will. Now the MB essentially want the same thing as AQ. However, they do not beleive that violence is the appropriate means of attaining the Islamic World. The caliphate as defined by history (or glen beck) isn't the end game, simple geography informs us its merely a step.

so you agree that Israel is not a theocracy. Wanna start another thread about Israeli Land ownership laws and issues, be my guest. I'd be really concerned about Israel's land laws except for one little tiny glitch in the rampant "discrimination" you like to see. Its called the Israeli Supreme Court. Perhaps you can look up some of their rulings on challenges and the remedies imposed.

I have studied the path. I'm not looking for any revealed truth, I;m looking to understand faith.

Far out man. excellent post. PS. don't take the brown acid.

It is egalitarian within Islam. I am well aware dhimmitude. Its not imperialism. Within the caliphate there would be only equality for all muslims. And, while Islam was spread by wars, that pretty much ended by the 19th century. Interesting perspective. My take on the history of zionism and Israel doesn't remotely conclude that the jews were refugees from colonialism. How so? Completely and totally different. The Japanese expanded to acquire material wealth and ruled by subjugation of entire populations. The vision of the Caliphate is expansion to achieve religious objectives and ruled thru established religous hierarchical autocratic mechanisms. To me words have particularly important meaning. The fact that many of lexically challenged misuse and abuse words does not change the word's actual meaning. Take the misuse of the word "socialism" in american politics today. I doubt that 20% of those that use it know what it means, but their audiences do know its something to FEAR.

Israel is a democracy. If it was a theocracy it would not allow muslims to vote or sit in parliment and would be ruled by jewish religious law. And exactly how do you arrive at this conclusion?

True.

You might not be serious either. At least I hope you're not because if you are you've drunk the koolaid. Utter nonsense.

\Over the course of 40 years I've spoken to a number of priests, ministers, imams and rabbis. I've been adivsed to open my heart and talk to god, study HIS word etc. etc. For all of that, I have acquired a fair degree of knowledge about the objects of religious faith, but still cannot fathom this thing called faith. It seems I can't get over the suspension of reality required to accept the supernatural and most definitely reject mythology as literal truth. I have come to the conclusion that God exists only between one's ears. God is solely an individual construct. If God is necessary to an individual to provide "meaning" to their life - great, if not - great.

I was surfing and hit upon Hannity which I find is always good for a laugh or piss off. He had Luntz (an evil genius btw) with the Ohio republican caucaus. there were about 30 of them and Luntz was doing his thing asking them opinions of various topics. He asked if anyone thought Obama was a Muslim. About HALF of these people raised their hands! These are the people who supposedly vote for candidates, help run local campaigns etc. etc. Luntz said "do you realize what you are saying?" to which he got a chorus of nods. And then something astonishing happened - when luntz went to move on Hannity interjected and said, I cant leave this controversy - I have no problem with Obama being a Christian - he a member of rev wrights radical liberation church, but he is a christian. I wasn't astonished at the unbelieveable ignorance of these supposedly political astute individuals. I was astonished that Hannity was actually embarassed and had to say something about it. Will wonders never cease. Another example of American exceptionalism at its worst.

The MB is not facist if one uses the classical definition of facsism. while there are a number of common "planks", there are some major differences. The MB are certainly not corporatists but they are "nationalists" in that they desire the return of the caliphate. The MB are not imperialists. The MB do not share any kind of economic philosophy with Fascism. The MB are egalitarians where the facists weren't anything like that. The MB are religiously orthodox, true facists were secular. Both are authoritarian, and one can equivocate MB's view of Islam with a form of Facsisms nationalism/racism beliefts. Facists certainly couldn't be accused of being charitible, one of the five pillars of Islam. I think jack is absolutely correct. Facism and Islamofacism are rather different animals. Now, as to MB origins, they had nothing to do with fascism. And their alignment with the Nazis had much much more to do with colonialism and loss of muslim lands (palestine). Shared emnity towards jews was the cherry on top. I reviewed your list of sites and most of them are rather unflinchingly biased. I mean no insult to shoaeducation or the jvl. But daniel pipes and arabracismislamofascism let alone the american spectator quoting that all american racist hannity who hasn't yet found a muslim, socialist, black president or democrat he likes? I'd like to say that nothing is black and white in realpolitik and one shoudl strive to be "fair and balanced", but unfortunately the phrase has been hijacked by FOXNews.