bud

it has to start somewhere just like any other place. the fact that they have never had a democracy shouldn't be an excuse to not support the will of the people.

extremist groups usually grow in support and power when all other moderate options are not available. if us doesn't support dictators and doesn't fuck around in the middle east, there wouldn't be support for extremist groups.

in majority of cases, money buys power. 95% of the elected presidents (i'm including bush jr. as elected as well) in the past have spent the most money (of all their rivals) during their campaigns to become presidents. gaza and egypt are different. hamas is running a prison cell and nothing else. i also wouldn't call their policies as religious. they're not like the taliban who subscribes to fundamental and extremist interpretation of islam. where girls are forbidden to go to school and women are killed for not covering their hair. hamas is a populist group which was elected due to its clean and efficient social programs. also, people were sick and tired of the extremely corrupt fatah government. that's why they received more votes than fatah in both gaza and west bank. it's too bad that they succumbed to vengeance and to the extremist factions and chose to take part in suicide attacks in the past. i'm willing to bet anyone that if israel was interested in a real and just peace and chose to talk to hamas, instead of making excuses, hamas would sit down and talk. they have already 'unofficially' accepted the 1967 border. but anyway... back to tunisia and egypt.

i'm a little more optimistic. the egyptians that i've come across usually have a pretty good understanding of politics and the system. a good percentage of them are also educated. i doubt they will allow this opportunity to go to waste. if it happens, lets just hope that their elected official is liked by US (and israel). otherwise, we could see another attempt to overthrow the elected government.

a lot of investment has gone into egypt in order to have a yes-man. this could be over very soon.

israel won't like what's happening in egypt. if it does happen in egypt, i highly doubt that the people will vote in extremists. i can see something like in the case of turkey.

i'm sticking with the topic that was being discussed before you went off on a tangent with your question. we are talking about israel's policy and the systematic ethnic cleansing of east jerusalem. i've provided statistics and numbers that show this. what you've provided is opinion and patting yourself on the back 'because you know everything and we don't'. you say there is no systematic discriminatory policy towards palestinians. however, when i show you the numbers and the statistics and the official policy, i am backing up the fact that ethnic cleansing is being done, you are unable to directly respond to them. it's your choice whether or not you want to respond to the information given to you that backs up israel's discriminatory policy.

the core issue is israel's policy of systematic ethnic cleansing of the palestinians and the land grab in east jerusalem. there is a difference between rhetoric and facts. i gave you numbers that show the systematic discrimination towards the palestinians. numbers that prove israel's discriminatory policy. israel's policy towards ethnic control, which is clearly stated by the city, aims at preventing the demographic changing from 70% jewish and 30% arab. yes. they actually have a stated policy and master plan. you are unable to respond to the statistics and facts so you're back to your 'you don't know.. blah blah'. instead of the tired old response, try something a little different and address the facts on the ground.

your question was responded to and you chose to say: i wrote about the facts on the ground. if you're going to sit there and deny that arab homes are being demolished and then jewish only homes are being built on top of them, then you are not here to discuss the truth. you're here to spread misinformation. here are some facts that you can choose to deal with: official statistics show that from 2000 - 2008, 670 east jerusalem homes were demolished. majority of them administrative demolitions. reason given for the demolition? lack of permit. so why are the palestinians building without permits? only between 50-100 housing permits are given to palestinian each year while there is a shortage of over 25,000 housing units for them. that's less than 1 in 250. suspicious? give them a jewish first name and last name and see what their chances will be. or maybe they can just move into the jewish only settlements in east jerusalem that continue to receive subsidies from the israeli government. this kind of behaviour by the government that administers this land goes against legal rules, moral rules and western culture ideals.

you should know the meaning of legal boundaries and borders. it's kind of important. your question does not make sense. however, if we're talking morality, then it could be argued that humanitarian laws can represent morality. many of israel's actions in the occupied territories, including gaza is both illegal and morally wrong. illegal: as an occupier, demolishing a palestinian home in east jerusalem and then setting up jewish only homes. morally wrong: demolishing a person's home, on his land to set up homes that do not allow that person to live there, because of his religious background.

cut it out with the bs. the homes that are being demolished by israel in east jerusalem to make room for jewish homes has nothing to do with 'security'.

no rue. again, no. this will be the last time i will address your irresponsible and inappropriate accusation. i support the state of israel within the legal and internationally recognized borders. what i do not support is the illegal occupation and annexation of land in the west bank and east jerusalem. an example of ethnic cleansing is taking a palestinian home, on palestinian land, demolishing it, building jewish only homes. all supported by the government. if you are unable to condemn that, then you are a supporter of ethnic cleansing as well.

when you don't condemn demolishing homes of a group of people in order to make homes for another group of people with a different religion, then you're supporting ethnic cleansing. there is no way around it. if you are also in the same boat as bob, then you're also a supporter of ethnic cleansing. i've already repeated this to you a few times, but for israel to annex palestinian land is wrong. there is no grey zone in this issue. it is both legally and morally wrong to steal another person's land.

bob supports ethnic cleansing.

at the expense of another long-winded post, here we go: err.. i guess thanks for acknowledging that criticism of israel is not anti-semitism. but then you go on to say the following: In fact people like you are never intentionally anti-semitic and that is what worries me the most so now you're saying that i am not intentionally anti-semitic? heh. most of your posts follow the same routine. you try to come off as the level-headed, balanced debater who acknowledges all wrongs, but then you're not really who you think you are. not on this selfish issue (although, i must give you points for another post where you've criticized the local radical leftist lawyer, jbg, for his continues racist and bigot comments towards muslims). why you are not balanced in your criticism? because you sneak in sentences like, which ultimately sends the same message that the type of person you say you are not: "not intentionally anti-semitic" or "Me I see two sets of people who were displaced through no fault of either, surrounded by a bunch of corupt, self-serving sharia law nations" again and again, you say you do, but you fail to acknowledge and confront the mistakes that israel has made. you try to equate the palestinians' victimization to that of israelis' and blame everything that has happened to them on 'the corrupt, self-serving sharia law nations'. you say that you're not here to judge because everyone is different, but then you continuously throw in sweeping remarks. i'm sure you have good intentions and you truly are feeling frustrated that people don't see things like you do. but if you, for once, stopped patting yourself on the back because 'you get it and we don't' and looked at your own comments as compared to the rules of good, balanced debating that you keep laying out for us, you'd also notice the hypocrisy that appear in each of your posts. not everything is black and white, but some things are. for example, terrorism against civilians committed by palestinian militants and by the israeli army. or the systematic land grab that continues on by israel. yes, gosthacked is correct to say that israel continues to expand its borders. he's not talking about the population, he's talking about the government funded and backed illegal settlements that fall outside of the state of israel's borders. you say you acknowledge and criticize israel, yet you fail to acknowledge one of the biggest obstacles that we have going towards a real and just peace, which is the expanding illegal settlements. give us statistics, numbers and facts, instead of your opinions which you feel should not be contested because you have deemed yourself as the fair and balanced zionist.

sounds like you don't really believe in democracy. such a shame. so why did they support those guys? because of corporations who make a lot more money when these dictators are in power. when a country is poor and it's ruled by dictators who are more than willing to take a cut of the money instead of serving their people, then you will have a government which will be friendly to its masters. you think the south american countries would attack the U.S. if they had a democratically elected government who served the people? because it is finally happening now and no such thing is happening. this is never about 'security'. it's all about corporations who don't give a shit about you or the country they are exploiting.

whitewashed history. expulsions and removals have been well-documented. it only makes you look bad and removes people's interest in what you have to say when you repeat lies like this. tell that to the hundreds of people who are losing homes in east jerusalem. tell that to the palestinians who are not given permits to build. tell that to the rabbis who have signed a declaration to keep the newly built homes on top of demolished arab homes, jews only.

you can't give something that is not yours. the gaza settlements were small and removed due to the high cost of maintaining them. it was useless to sharon. not only that, but the settlers were just moved to the west bank settlements. 'terrorism' by palestinians was non-existent for many years throughout the occupation years. israel has continued to increase its settlements every year. they promote it and give incentives to those who move to the areas. this is not called natural growth, it's systematic land grab.

bob.. your thoughts on the mayor of jerusalem and the recent demolishing of palestinians homes in arab neighbourhoods, including the demolishing of sheppard hotel. you mentioned settlements that are already established and have been for many years. however, what about the new settlements (and/or the paving of new settlements) in the arab neighbourhoods like the above-mentioned. do you find it acceptable?

good explanation but you're making one big error. i never insinuated that i believed all settlers are religious fanatics. i also understand the different types and the different reasons why they are in these settlements. in fact, the reason why i asked was because of the poll i posted. in the poll, the settlers' motives for living where they are, are as follows: 46% - personal wish for quality of life 31% - national or religious mission 15% - importance for the security of israel the above poll, reflects your explanation. what's interesting is what the perception of settlers' motives by settlers and the public: 26% - personal wish 48% - national or religious mission 13% - security the public (israeli) perception is similar with 55% perceive that the reason is national or religious.

the uprising is led by the labour movement and internet activists. curious to see how the U.S. will respond to this.

as a settler, i'm curious to know your view: why do settlers live in the settlements? what is their reason?

oh yeah! totally dude! you hit the nail on that one! totally the same thing man! east prussia.. east jerusalem.. so same thing! SO same thing! israel is a rogue state that continues to violate numerous international laws. the violations have nothing to do with its security but it does have to do with illegally expanding its borders. you're no different than a supporter of nazi germany expansionism. ooh. i just used hyperbole to get my point across. how you of me.

wow? yes. in that time, the government had numerous opportunities to at least 'freeze' the settlements and instead elected to feed the extremist right wingers in its coalition.

instead of representing the majority of the people, the israeli government continues to not only defy international law but also go against what majority of israelis want: A survey of the Israeli general public and Israeli settlers taken in early March shows three-fifths of the Israeli public (60%) support "dismantling most of the settlements in the territories as part of a peace agreement with the Palestinians." WPO Poll an example of how the government is controlled by the extremist settler groups. one false move against the settlements by bibi and his coalition will fall apart.