bud

china what? show me proof of these agents and spies from china? tell me about the chinese lobby group(s). because i enjoy correcting people. really now? that's what patraeus is saying. the unconditional support for israel is harming u.s. shouldn't u.s. stop harming itself with its unconditional support for this rogue state? you're ridiculous. do you know the penalty for spying? let me give you a clue; it's not "oh hey. no worries! we all do it!" alright. so you understand how it's wrong that AIPAC not only spies for israel, but also plants agents in the government and also, through giving money and doing political favours, gets u.s. politicians to reduce charges for spies that have been caught. by the way, guess what one of the convicted israeli spy ended up receiving for punishment? it went down from 10 years to 2 months house arrest. it's all good though, right?

what are you babbling about now? jbg was wondering why israel is getting air time with the UN and libya is not. i showed him that libya is on top of the UN security council agenda. is there really a need to post something irrelevant like you usually do? wtf does muslim brotherhood have anything to do with this, skippy?

when will you comprehend that the illegal settlements are just that, illegal and not part of israel. so being against the illegal settlements is not delegitimizing israel. make an effort and understand the simple point above so it doesn't have to be explained to you again.

the illegal settlements have been illegal for decades. the libya situation is less than a month old. but yeah, anyway, mr. radical leftist lawyer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12589658 The UN Security Council has agreed a package of sanctions against the Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi and members of his family and close associates, including international travel bans and the freezing of assets. The unanimous vote also approved the immediate referral of Libya to the International Criminal court over alleged abuses during the current violence, and a complete arms embargo on Libya.

other lobby groups are planting their agents in the government (as stated by the former head of AIPAC) and spying on the government? do tell, which other lobby group does this? who cares what you believe. this unconditional support for israel is: Petraeus: Israel is putting American lives at risk i guess it's what you 'believe' and what general patraeus and many other professionals believe. oh yeah. it's hypocritical to condemn someone who has spied. you're such a pragmatist. i suppose that you believe there is nothing wrong with this either: A U.S. government investigation of Israeli spying caught a prominent Democratic congresswoman discussing what is alleged to be a "quid pro quo" deal involving the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), Washington’s powerful, hawkish pro-Israel lobby. Rep. Jane Harman of California was recorded in 2005 on a National Security Administration (NSA) wiretap promising a suspected Israeli agent that she would intervene on behalf of two AIPAC staffers accused of passing classified information to the Israeli government, and her interlocutor responded by promising to help get Harman appointed to a top congressional intelligence post, according to an article published Sunday by Congressional Quarterly (CQ). really now. you're such a pragmatist.

you don't see a system? when a lobby group systematically pays towards politicians that will push their agenda, then it's called a system. when the leader of this lobby group admits that his lobby group pushes and gets people connected to the lobby group into the government over and over again in order to push their agenda, then it's called a system. really? pushing another country's agenda at the expense of american security is not a bad thing? not responding to a valid argument, like, a lobby group being caught spying for another country with really bad humour is weak. you had a moment at the beginning where you came off as someone who was interested in being honest and logical about what is happening, but then when we got deeper into the conversation, your true colours are coming out. you're not interested in an honest debate, you're here making excuses and cheering for your tribe. that's too bad.

you're an emotional and fearful person. you're so deep in your victimhood mentality that you seem to be unable to accept that the reason why so many people are concerned about israel is not because they're jewish, but because israel is treating a group of people the way they are.

Intentionalists vs. functionalists Mein Kampf has assumed a key place in the functionalism versus intentionalism debate. Intentionalists insist that the passage stating that if 12,000–15,000 Jews were gassed, then "the sacrifice of millions of soldiers would not have been in vain," proves quite clearly that Hitler had a master plan for the genocide of the Jewish people all along. Functionalists deny this assertion, noting that the passage does not call for the destruction of the entire Jewish people and note that although Mein Kampf is suffused with an extreme anti-Semitism, it is the only time in the entire book that Hitler ever explicitly refers to the murder of Jews. Given that Mein Kampf is 694 pages long, Functionalist historians have accused the Intentionalists of making too much out of one sentence. Functionalist historians have argued that the memorandum written by Heinrich Himmler to Hitler on May 25, 1940, regarding the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question", whose proposals Hitler accepted, proves that there was no master plan for genocide which stemmed back to the 1920s. In the memorandum, Himmler rejects genocide under the grounds that one must reject "...the Bolshevik method of physical extermination of a people out of inner conviction as un-German and impossible." He goes on to argue that something similar to the "Madagascar Plan" be the preferred "territorial solution" to the "Jewish Question".

i don't see this as a religious issue. i think you overuse and are too concerned over this whole 'islamofascist' crap. these people realize the injustice the palestinians are experiencing just like most others around the world. they know mubarak's co-operation has helped the situation and are voicing their opinion. with the rise of the people in the middle east, israel will have a hard time continuing the status quo. something needs to be changed soon.

according to al jazeera: this is a sign of things to come. this is the reason many zionists preferred to have a dictator and a yesman ruling egypt, as opposed to a democratically elected government. people of the world realize the injustice the palestinians are experiencing in the hands of the israeli government. the middle east domino effect will be hitting the occupied territories very soon.

don't play stupid. here is some truth that you should consider before denying: Steiner resignation In 1992, AIPAC president David Steiner was forced to resign after he was recorded boasting about his political influence in obtaining aid for Israel. Steiner also claimed that he had met with (then Bush U.S. Secretary of State) Jim Baker and I cut a deal with him. I got, besides the $3 billion, you know they're looking for the Jewish votes, and I'll tell him whatever he wants to hear ... Besides the $10 billion in loan guarantees which was a fabulous thing, $3 billion in foreign, in military aid, and I got almost a billion dollars in other goodies that people don't even know about. Steiner also claimed to be "negotiating" with the incoming Clinton administration over who Clinton would appoint as Secretary of State and Secretary of the National Security Agency. Steiner stated that AIPAC had "a dozen people in [the Clinton] campaign, in the headquarters... in Little Rock, and they're all going to get big jobs."[31] NY real estate developer Haim Katz told The Washington Times that he taped the conversation because "as someone Jewish, I am concerned when a small group has a disproportionate power. I think that hurts everyone, including Jews. If David Steiner wants to talk about the incredible, disproportionate clout AIPAC has, the public should know about it."[32] at the expense of america's security and the lives of americans? gee, i had no clue that this was okay in some people's world. there was no overstating as everything he said was happening and happened. you can pretend that the influence the israeli lobby has over the american politicians is nothing but anyone who isn't here with pompom's cheering for his tribe, would disagree. besides the information from the former head of AIPAC there are also the numerous AIPAC or AIPAC connected spies who have been charged with espionage. i guess a foreign backed lobby group spying for another country is okay in your books as well.

the u.s. just vetoed another resolution. all 14 security council members backed the resolution and the u.s. came out with another expected veto. the u.s. political system and its foreign policy is heavily influenced by israel. anyone who says otherwise is either lying or has no clue. i'm still waiting to hear from someone, anyone, about the former AIPAC president and his comments in regards to the influence AIPAC/israel has over american politicians. the only person who has responded to it was the resident, jewish settler who called the former AIPAC head's comments, "imagined influence".

i will tell you why it is. because many of the pro-israeli supporters condemn the methods they themselves used in order to create their state. not only that, but jewish/israeli terrorism didn't stop after the 40's. as mentioned, one of the most active terrorist groups in the 80's was the jdl. jewish/israeli terrorism has carried into 90's and into the new millennium. many acts committed by jewish settlers are considered terrorism. there has been numerous attacks by jewish settlers on palestinians and their properties. terrorism by these groups have mostly been a reaction to the brutal occupation which you have a hard time discussing. what you're also failing to bring up into the equation is the constant violations of international law. aka, war crimes committed by the israeli military. never said they didn't. uh oh. again. you have elected not to mention the 'major' reasons for the failure for their struggles. when you have the majority of the western governments (not the people, but the governments) politically, suffocating the palestinians plead for justice and standing silent when documented war crimes are being committed by the occupier, (like the gaza strip), then we should take that into account. this is all relevant. israel's inability to accept a fair and just palestinian state is the main problem here. everything else is an accessory. all i asked when this topic started in this thread was for you to acknowledge the terrorism committed by jews and israelis. you chose to use arafat, who has been dead for many years and you chose to name him as the father of terrorism, yet you failed to mention the other side. this is called misinformation. first of all, you brought up the past and arafat, who you believe to be the father of terrorism. so why not stop changing what your message is. here is what you said: Pro palestinians ignore that fact that the PLO was formed to destroy Israel, and that Arafat was a terrorist and gangster perhaps you should try to focus a little more on what you're trying to debate and how you conveniently change your tune when i called you on your comment about the formation of PLO and the history of palestinian terrorism. second, the occupation did not start today and in order to have a healthy and honest debate, all information should be taken into consideration. any information that has to do with the formation of israel is relevant to the topic.

it isn't? really jonsa? many jewish/israeli groups used terrorism to drive not only the british out but also the native palestinians. many of those who were part of the terrorist groups ended up becoming part of the israeli government and the military. this is pretty much the same as some of the palestinian groups. arafat, a supporter of terrorism became the biggest figure in palestinian quest for independence. hamas, best known for its suicide attacks became a serious political party who was actually voted in democratically by the palestinians. they have for the most part abandoned their old habits due to natural political evolution and of course from outside forces. so you don't really see the relevance and the similarity between israel's method of creation and what the palestinians are going through? and you only feel like mentioning one side of the coin and choose to try to convince us that israel should not be part of the debate? so the terrorist attacks by palestinians will be okay once a palestinian state is created?

Jonsa, my response goes for you as well: really? what about the fact that shamir, the israeli prime minister whose terrorist organization assassinated british envoy lord moyne, and swedish united nations peace mediator count folke-bernadotte in the 1940's? are you justifying israeli terrorism or are you against it? lets be clear on this. what about other israeli/jewish terrorist groups and organizations, like meir kahane and the jewish defense league? regarded as one of the most active terrorist organizations in the 80's? what about gush emunim underground? lets not forget israeli prime minister, menachem begin the leader of the irgun terrorist organization?

lol. there you go again, for some bizarre reason, mentioning something about canada that is irrelevant to the topic. what's your angle buddy? what does that have to do with anything?

well that's quite generous of you to magically give one group's history in terrorism a pass while condemning another's. bob would be proud of you. shouldn't the father label go to groups that started the whole thing in the region? like the the jewish terrorist group that a former israeli prime minister was a leader of? i never said arafat and palestinian terrorism shouldn't be in the equation. i just reminded you that you somehow believe jewish terrorism and many other acts that you fail to mention shouldn't really be part of the debate. like somehow, a group of people are above a moral line that we have created. no kidding. all those rockets and missiles pointed at him and all those sexy mossad agents with poison on their lips and he still made it pretty far. oh yeah, answer me this: which one of these groups (PLO or likud), has vowed to never allow/accept a state for the other side? here is a clue and here is another.

america's foreign policy effect the whole world. now go on and be a good citizen and pay more money to israel instead of fixing your roads.

irgun and the stern gang ring a bell? if not, they were one of the most prominent jewish terrorist organizations which helped to create the state of israel. what about yitzhak shamir a former leader of the stern gang who became the prime minister of israel? do you not know about these things or do you just choose not to put them into the equation?

when a lobby group has success in putting another country's agenda above america's and in turn, ends up hurting americans' safety and security, then it's safe to say that it's a problem. let us go down the list of some of the things that are wrong with having a lobby group like AIPAC: here is a report by two self-hating jewish professors AIPAC's agenda puts America's security at risk: AIPAC spies for a foreign country: so go on and deny the problem and continue declaring that this is all okay. the only americans who would be okay with something like that have more loyalty towards israel and this loyalty trumps america's security.

weak. you've lowered yourself.

an american who cares for his/her country's security would. Petraeus: Israel is putting American lives at risk General Petraeus’s Centcom Statement before the Senate Armed Services Committee – 16th March 2010 (56pp .pdf) Page 12: Insufficient progress toward a comprehensive Middle East peace. The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests in the AOR [area of responsibility]. Israeli-Palestinian tensions often flare into violence and large-scale armed confrontations. The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel. Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the AOR and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support. The conflict also gives Iran influence in the Arab world through its clients, Lebanese Hizballah and Hamas. Page 33: A credible U.S. effort on Arab-Israeli issues that provides regional governments and populations a way to achieve a comprehensive settlement of the disputes would undercut Iran’s policy of militant “resistance,” which the Iranian regime and insurgent groups have been free to exploit. Page 38: The Levant and Egypt sub-region is the traditional political, social, and intellectual heart of the Arab world and is vital to security and stability in the CENTCOM AOR. Because of its history as a primary battleground between rival ideologies, the dynamics of this sub-region, particularly with regard to Israel, influence the internal and external politics of states outside the region as well. In addition, U.S. policy and actions in the Levant affect the strength of our relationships with partners in the AOR. As such, progress toward resolving the political disputes in the Levant, particularly the Arab-Israeli conflict, is a major concern for CENTCOM. In Paul Woodward’s take, he writes of Petraeus’s statements: If such a statement was being made outside the American political arena, it could be regarded as a rather bland expression of what has long been utterly obvious. Yet from the lips of a celebrated general, regarded by many as a potential future president, these words come as a bombshell. Neoconservatives and the Israel lobby have worked hard and long to obscure the deeply corrosive regional impact of a conflict that successive Israeli leaders have either been unwilling or seemingly incapable of resolving. Others, who earlier said what Petraeus now says, have either been dismissed as poorly informed or worse, branded as anti-Israeli or by insinuation, anti-Semitic. No such charge will stick to Petraeus. Indeed, if the Israel lobby was so foolhardy as to try and go after an American general who sometimes gets treated like a latterday Eisenhower, the lobby will be at dire risk of being visited by its own greatest fear: being branded as anti-American.

uhm. it's a lobby group for israel. not for america.

an american lobby group that works towards the best interest of not u.s.a. but of another country. as professor mearsheimer and Hprofessor walt have said: AIPAC's success is due to its ability to reward legislators and congressional candidates who support its agenda, and to punish those who challenge it. ... AIPAC makes sure that its friends get strong financial support from the myriad pro-Israel PACs. Those seen as hostile to Israel, on the other hand, can be sure that AIPAC will direct campaign contributions to their political opponents. ... The bottom line is that AIPAC, which is a de facto agent for a foreign government, has a stranglehold on the U.S. Congress. Open debate about U.S. policy towards Israel does not occur there, even though that policy has important consequences for the entire world. we get it, you're okay with the disproportional influence of another country on your government. an influence that puts america and americans in more danger. but most real americans who care about the well-being of america do not.

it doesn't work that way, dawg. that is such an awful justification. rules are rules and it doesn't matter if the arabs lost the war. israel, as a member of u.n. must abide by its rules of land and borders. what israel is doing is what a rogue state does. countless resolutions against their illegal actions, international court rulings and human rights reports that outline its numerous violations are a clear indication that israel is a rogue state with no respect for human rights and international law/agreements.