Bob

naomiglover - What do you propose Israel do to defend itself from rockets? You always add a token reference stating that Israel has a right to defend itself, always alongside a condemnation of everything Israel does. So what should it do in the face of rockets and others acts of terrorism (suicide bombings, shooting and stabbing murders of its citizens, etc)? If not the blockade and Cast Lead, what is Israel to do? Let me ask you a fundamental question (I'm quite sure I know your answer): 1) Does Israel have a right to exist as Jewish state - in other words, do you accept Jewish nationalism?

In all seriousness, you're a laughing stock of this forum. You're in no position to crticize American Woman's conduct or posts on any matter. She's honest and thoughtful in her posts, you most certainly are not. I'm not sure what's happened to you that warped your perspective of these matter so much, especially considering that you have some form of Jewish heritage (right?) - although I'll presume that you've thrown away most or all of your Jewish identity. Tell me, do you identify yourself as Jewish? You've said you were born and spent your early years in Israel, but you've never identified yourself as Jewish. I'm certain that it is not by accident that you've omitted this detail. Am I correct? Either a) you've thrown away your Jewish identity thinking its modernizes you and is the path of liberal enlightenment, or you're not Jewish at all (you're and Arab or something else). Regardless, perhaps you're just young and naive. You've stated yourself that your position on these issues (virulently anti-Israel) was developed in school in Canada. I also took some political science electives in university (many of my university friends were into politics, most of them heavily leaning left) and have a reasonable sense of the leftist, warped perspectives that are prevalent among university communities. Something must have happened there and some light-switch went off in your mind, "Ah ha! I now know everything I'll ever need to know about the conflict!" And so you go on shaping every single development in the Middle East into your anti-Israel and pro-terrorist perspective. Maybe in time you'll have another awakening bringing you somewhere closer to reality.

There's nothing fascistic about my position on any Israel-Arab issue. I wonder if you've ever used that term to describe the positions of the countless Islamic organizations out there committed to Israel's destruction?

No, actually I don't advocate mass murder of Muslims around the world and I don't advocate the annihilation of all Muslim countries. All I'm saying, which isn't an original concept, is that forceful expulsion of Arabs (which are pretty much a fifth column in Israel, they openly declare allegiance to anti-Israel and anti-Zionist and anti-semitic movements) would've saved Israel a lot of internal strife and saved lives in the short and long term. The Arab parties in Israel are go as close to the line as being anti-Zionist as they can without breaking the law. If you are anti-Zionist, you may as well call yourself an anti-semite.

Jews were second class citizens and discriminated against in the Arab and Muslim world as second-class citizens. It doesn't say much that the type of discrimination Jews experienced in the Muslim world wasn't as bad as pogroms and the Holocaust. It seems as if we Jews should be thankful if we're not being murdered. We don't want' "relative peace", we want self-determination and full autonomy. Go fuck yourself when you suggest that Zionism is racism.

Wow, what a moron he is. Could you tell me where he's written that?

Definitely. Trying to see the world the way she wants to see it rather than the way it really is.

That's simply not true. Gazans (and other Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims) have been murdering Jews around the world LONG BEFORE '67, and certainly long before the 2006 blockade of Gaza. Israel is dealing with the control of Hamas the way it should, by sealing Gaza off and reducing the likelihood of them acquiring weaponds to murder more Israelis. Even with the blockade, they still manage to acquire weapons and carry out terrorism.

That's assuming she knows the difference between '48 and '67. It seems to me she doesn't. I don't think she knows what she's saying.

Did I say that? No, I didn't. If Gazans want to have commerce with Israel (vital to their economic security), then they need to accept Israel as a Jewish state and stop their hostility, violence, and incitement. Is that too much to ask for? Apparently it is.

How is that? He asked her about her position on some issues, none of his question were loaded or biased. She got agitated because of her own ignorance. She has taken a passionate position that is clearly anti-Israel, and when asked for details her own ignorance led to her getting flustered. Full stop on your bullshit. Nothing the kid asked was loaded or misleading. His questions were broad, and if she didn't know details she could admit it more readily. Her excuse for her ignorance "I"m not there"... well, if you need to be there to have an opinion, why is she commenting at all?

Wounded? Care to provide some context to that? Wounded how and why? More generally, the hardship people experience in Israel is the fault of Gazans and their supporters. End of story.

M. Dancer I think the title is misleading, as I don't think this Davies lady knows the difference between '48 and '67. This video merely illustrates her ignorance (and by extension, the extreme ignorance of many in the anti-Israel camp) of the subject.

Palestinian children have food. Her visits to the West Bank and Gaza are well-orchestrated propaganda affairs, of which she is a willing participant.

The videographer was asking her softball question. There was nothing disingenuous about his line of questioning. The point of the video is that there is such profound ignorance among a politician who is vocal towing the anti-Israeli line of propaganda. She knows nothing about the conflict, and should admit to her own ignorance.

Spare me the holier-than-thou sermon. If this decision would've been made, thousands of lives woudl've been saved. Clearly the Arab and ewish populations in the Middle East aren't ready for coexistence.

Are you serious? You think Russia and China have ever had creditiblity on this issue? Or any humanitarian issue? Do you not see the political motivations behind China and Russia's regular hostility to Israel? How can you be this obtuse?

You should try a reading a book sometime. I have Carter's "Peace not Apartheid" audiobook if you're interested...

So you support ethnically cleansing a future Palestinian state of Jews through dismantling of "settlements"? Deal, let's first start with deporting all Arabs and Muslims from Israel to some other country in the form of a population exchange.

Take a look at the blatant anti-semitism in the replies/comments to the video. Sounds like a slightly more candid version of some of the posts I see in this forum. To those who suggest that Israel doesn't face an existential threat and extreme hatred and animosity from its enemies (Arabs and Muslims who hate Jews, plain and simple), the writing's on the wall.

Gazans aren't starving, naomiglover continues to perpetuate lies about Gazans starving and needing the tunnels to "survive" the blockade.

How much better the situation would now be if Israel has simply forcefully deported all of them. A two-state solution is entirely possible if the Arabs and Muslims accept it. They turned it down in 1947, and the turned it down in 1993. They don't want a two-state solution - they want a one-state solution - yet another Islamic state.

Yes, how offensive it must have been to a bystander like yourself who has no stake in this conflict, nor has ever read a book about it. You exemplify passion and ignorance as a bad combination.

Her basic premise, which I agree with, is that the concept of the two-state solution is flawed for several reasons. Primarily, the two-state solution is founded on the false premise the the Israeli-Arab conflict is rooted in Israel's occupation of territory seized after the Six-Day War - Gaza (only a semi-occupation now, after Israel's withdrawal and dismantling of Israeli residences), the West Bank, and East Jerusalem. If this premise was true, then why have Arabs and Muslims been murdering Jews and calling for the destruction of the Zionist entity in the later 19th century, and calling for the destruction of Israel as soon as Israel was declared a state (wars of '48, '56', and '67 occurred before any "occupation" took place)? Basically, this conflict is primarily ideological, and not territorial. As long as the Arabs and Muslims reject Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state (denying Jewish self-determination), the conflict will perpetuate itself. In other words, the Arabs and Muslims need to reconcile themselves with Israel's existence as a Jewish state (and accept Jewish self-determination). There's much more to the video, for example how "moderates" like Fatah still deny Israel's character and endorse terrorism (which they describe as "armed struggle" and "noble resistance"). The examples of Arab and Muslim belligerence and hostility to Israel (murdering thousands of Jews in Israel and abroad over many decades) let us know exactly what kind of people we're dealing with. through their words and their deeds, Israel's enemies have made it clear over a century that they do not want peace... their idea of peace is the Helen Thomas solution.

Israel has no legal or moral obligation to ensure that chocolate and jam and delivered to a territory ruled by an organization (with popular support from the public) that is openly hostile to Israel with words and actions. Not only is Hamas open about its desire for the destruction of Israel and the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Israel, they act upon with acts of murder via rockets and other terrorist acts. Hamas itself wants nothing to do with Israel with respect to commerece (effectively shutting out ~30% of the Gazan economy pre-blockade). If there was no blockade on Gaza via its borders with Israel, Hamas would not permit any crossing of goods or people into Israel, but would try to do things via the sea border and Egypt, which would still harm Gazans and lead to shortages of non-essentials. There is no international law being broken. Israel has a legal and moral obligation to protect itself from its enemies, hence the blockade. There has never been a blockade this soft in human history, with Israel still taking upon itself the burden of allowing necessities into Gaza. When has this ever happened in the history of war (outside of American and coalition humanitarian aid to its enemies of the past in some ways). Lastly, Israel is not in a position where it can always differentiate Hamas and its affiliates from the "civilian" population. The longer the list of permitted goods and the more flexible the rules for the transferring of people, the greater the material burden and security risk to Israel. If Gaza can demonstrate itself to NOT be openly hostile (i.e. constant statements AND acts of murder against Israel), then we can talk. Israel's pre-condition for desiring recognition prior to serious negotiations isn't too much to ask. Stop killing us and inciting others to kill us, and we can talk. What a thought!