Bob

What in the world is wrong with Obama and his crew? Here's the CNN article. Here's a video of SoS Clinton on Spanish television, stating that the administration wants to challenge the new law: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkhDqKAlFgY I can't find the video, but Hillary Clinton's press secretary stood by her words at a later press conference asking for more details. What in the world is wrong with Obama? Looks to me like he's pandering to an extremist political constituency, those who are opposed to any concept of borders and want to live in a global village. Certainly there is a strong and vocal component of the Hispanic community that is also sympathetic and supportive of illegal immigration from Mexico. More frightening, is if Obama in his heart of hearts is opposed to this bill on a moral level.

I have spent thousand of hours. You haven't spent the tiniest fraction of that time on this subject. Seriously, though... why would you? It's not like you care and these issues have no meaning to you. You have no stake in these matters and I'm sure you've got more important and relevant things to learn about in your free time. Your ignorance is completely understandable.

What "Arabian security" are you talking about? Do you not know who was in control of surrounding territories in the years leading up to Israel's formation? More specifically, the land actually being talked about - the Palestine Mandate? Israel's posed no threat whatsoever to the surrounding nations. However, as soon as Israel declared independence, it was invaded by its Arab neighbours with the clear aim of the destruction of the state and liquidation of Jews. You're supremely ignorant of history. As usual, you've got it backwards. Israeli security was, and remains, threatened by its neighbours. Its establishment was in no way shape or form a threat to its neighbours, as neither the Jewish states words or deeds illustrated any security threat to its neighbours. What Israel did, however, was offend Muslim and Arab honour and machismo, which felt dissed having a Jewish independent state in its midst. Again, the moral equivalence police advocate on behalf of hostile dictatorship Arab states at the expense of democratic Israel. What in the world are you talking about? All Israeli citizens enjoy equal rights. Palestinians under occupation are not Israeli citizens. Are you suggesting that Israel give citizenship to occupied Palestinians? What the hell does this have to do with anything? You think Jews living outside of Israel aren't Zionists, or that all Zionist Jews of the diaspora must take it upon themselves to move to Israel Pure ignorance. And even though you're wrong (Jews are more targeted than any other group on the planet, bar none, by terrorists), it's irrelevant. Even though other identifiable groups are at risk doesn't lessen the justification of a state as a tool towards self-defense. If First Nations were at risk of being murdered and discriminated against, it would add credence to a hypothetical popular movement towards independence. Again, supreme ignorance of history. I can no longer continue a conversation about this subject with someone who's not so much read a book about these matters. Keep on wallowing in ignorance.

Follow the thread and you'll see how we arrived here. Let's not pretend that this thread is a vacuum within which none of us are still engaged in other overlapping talks connected to other threads.

Get back to me when you've spent thousands of hours reading history books, memoirs, articles, attending lectures and debates, and watching documentaries and other media. Until then, don't get at me with your ignorant suppositions about this conflict. Be honest with yourself and admit your own ignorance. The Israeli-Arab conflict doesn't fit into the biased paradigm of your worldview pitting the "haves" against the "have-nots".

They both deserve equal what? Within what limits? What in the world are you talking about? Most importantly, why am I even trying to talk to someone who can't even maintain coherence...?

Well, you're completely ignorant of Israeli and Zionist history, so of course you'd say something like that. All of these questions, and many more, were struggled with by many involved parties leading up to the creation of Israel. This includes Israel's entire leadership, from inception through to today. Even within Israel, as in any free democratic society committed to self-improvement, struggles with internal questions about fairness to all people, in order to balance core values with Israel's Jewish character. Look in the mirror and ask yourself honestly, what do you know about Israeli and Zionist history? Do you know what the White Paper of 1939 was? DO you know what the Peel Commission was? Do you know what the Exodus of 1947 was? Do you even know who Benny Morris and Avi Shlaim are? Can you name Israel's early leadership? Have you ever even read a single book regarding the origins of Israel and the Zionist movement? Maybe even a documentary? Clearly you haven't. You and I know you're not equipped for a discussion of Israeli history - don't feel bad, you have no stake in these matters so of course you're not very motivated to educated yourself and cease your ignorance. I am ignorant of many things, but I also don't jump into conversations regarding subjects about which I know nothing without a lot of humility. Why are you even participating in this discussion when you don't have any tools with which to use? You should stay out of it until you've learned something.

So cultures aren't equal but people are. Where does the culture end and the person begin? Where the person end and the culture begin? So Nazism isn't equal to the Liberal Party of Canada, but is Hitler equal to Ignatieff as a person? Hitler and Ignatieff are the same because, in your own idiotic words, "all people are the same"? What in the world are you talking about? Give me a straight answer and we can then proceed. Keep waffling and you only make yourself look like more of an idiot.

I am absolutely opposed to Palestinian self-determination, because Palestinian self-determination is intent on the destruction of Israel and mass murder of Jews. When the Palestinian and broader Arab and Muslim society sincerely recognize Israel's existence to fulfill Jewish self-determination, in both actions and deeds, then we can talk. Until then, I will not apologize to being opposed to the full autonomy of a people who seek my destruction. The right to Palestinian self-determination does not come at the expense of Israel's security or existence. Until the society changes, and it hasn't moderated in any significant way (as an example, Abu Mazen, the "moderate", still refuses to acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state), it cannot be reconciled with and at best can only be managed. You have no idea what you're talking about. Be honest, you know nothing about Palestinians. You know nothing about Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO, the PA, Fatah, or any other terrorist group. Have you ever read ONE article on the various congresses they've had? What their stated objectives and resolutions are that are determined at these congresses? Ever watch an interview with Khaled Mashaal? You probably can't even name one of the thousands of terrorist attacks Israel has endured at the hands of its enemies, let alone the thousands of murders of Jews abroad at the hands of Islamic terrorists. You probably can't even name five Hamas or PA officials. Yet you know the name of Operation Cast Lead and whitephosphorous. You know about the fauxtilla incident. You don't know the first thing about the people you claim to advocate on behalf of. You advocate for murders who do not wish for coexistence based on your ignorant perspective that we're all alike. It's this mental disorder that you and many others suffer from that wishes to see the world in a way you wish it was, rather than the way it really is.

Answer this question - are all cultures, communities, religions, societies, etc equal?

Muslims behaving violently and murdering one another? Are we supposed to be surprised?

One more point, this story most certainly WILL NOT dominate any headlines for even a day. It certainly will not get even a tiny fraction of the airtime and attention within the media of the fauxtilla controversy.

The point remains - the UN is a vehicle through which irrelevant countries gain increased prominence. It's a forum in which those who have no credibility on any issues regarding human rights (95% of the countries of the world) are given a platform and symbolic credibility which they shouldn't have. This is evidenced by the UN's lopsided focus on Israeli-Arab conflict (virtually always coming down on an anti-Israel position), while paying much less attention to real problems around the world. Of course this is related to the prominence of the global Muslim community, about one and half billion of them and about twenty states which are virtually exclusively Islamic (and anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, and anti-semitic), as well as global ignorance of the Israeli-Arab conflict and pervasive anti-semitism. That's the point. That's the reality. Whether or not you want to recognize this is unimportant.

Stop lying. Israel never supported or encouraged Hamas. You think you can spread your lies in here without anyone calling you on your bullshit?

How many more articles will we find among the websites of the UN, HRW, Amnesty, and major media outlets around the world regarding the fauxtilla than compared to these unfolding events in Kyrgyzstan? Without a doubt the UN will use more of its "intellectual" and "political" resources towards resolving the fauxtilla controversy than these events in Kyrgyzstan. This is jbg's obvious point which you're ignoring.

It just sunk in... GostHacked just told me that most Jews aren't Zionist by linking three unknown websites... All I can say is wow. I never thought you were particularly intelligent to begin with, but now you've really gone off the deep end.

Would a First Nations state come at the expense of Canadian security? Would equal freedoms and protections (within reason) be extended to all who live in the potential First Nations state? Are the majority of First Nations communities calling for independence? Are First Nations in imminent threat of discrimination and murder? Are there other options to fulfil First Nations self-determination that we might consider? There are legitimate questions to be asked here, but of course it's not like you're interested in context.

Listen. You schmuck. You moron. You idiot. You think you know more about the Jewish community than me? You think Google searching obscure websites that nobody's ever heard of suggests that Zionism isn't an integral part of the global Jewish community, aside from some of its detractors (who may or may not be represented by these ridiculous websites)? How arrogant and idiotic are you to talk to me about my own people? If you had any sense or genuine desire to understand the Jewish perspective of this conflict and Zionism's role in the Jewish community, you'd be asking me and other Jewish board members questions and not coming at me with fringe websites nobody's ever heard of. The funniest thing about the modern internet is now everyone thinks they're an expert on everything. Not only that, but the real idiots go to the most lunatic websites for information of "proof" of their ignorant positions. Funnier still, is that you know someone is angry and desperate when they start linking fringe websites as support for any argument.

I wonder if we'll see protests and passionate demonstrations in Istanbul or Beirut, just as we saw over the fauxtilla?

Yeah, I saw it this morning. These animals are pure jihadists, to them it's clearly a religious war. Hatred of Jews and Israel is a core belief to them. To me, the untold story of the Fauxtilla is how moronic the IDF must be to send soldiers onto a boat, ONE AT A TIME, with PAINTBALL GUNS, onto a clearly hostile boat. We know from experience that terrorists and extremists always wrap themselves up in the cloak of "peace activism", with the goals of killing us. Yet we sent in nineteen-year-olds ONE AT A TIME, with instructions NOT TO SHOOT, and misinformation about the true violent intentions of those aboard. After the events, the soldiers said they were "surprised" by the viciousness of the violence they endured. Why were they surprised? That's who these people are! What kind of leadership tells it soldiers not to expect serious danger from terrorists and agitators? The most sickening part - only once they're assaulted, stabbed, shot, and beaten, do they radio back TO ASK FOR PERMISSION TO DEFEND THEMSELVES and protect their lives. This is insanity. Our boys are bleeding and dying so that we may appease liberal idiots thousands of kilometres away who hate us. Unsurprisingly, these same liberal idiots then criticize Israel for behaving too aggressively.

It's important to understand where people stand on the issue of Zionism. If one is opposed to Zionism, the debate's over - they're anti-semitic and opposed to Jewish self-determination. More than likely, they're opposed to all identities and wish to live a world where there are no group identities and all people are global citizens. They hate difference, often because they themselves have no identity beyond their individual personhood. Their ignorance of culture and identity contributes to their hostility towards all identities. They see expressions of difference as an insult to their unaffiliated existence. The bottom line is we need to know where a person stands on the issue of Zionism before we can even begin to move forward on a debate regarding Israel. If an individual is anti-Zionist, they are opposed to the fundamental fabric of Israeli society. Not only is Zionism within Israel's legal foundation, it's a part of its social foundation and lives in the hearts of most Israelis. It's not just on paper, it's in practice. Rejection of Zionism is a rejection of Israel as a Jewish state. Once that rejection is made clear, the debate's over. Forget about examining the details of hostilities between Israel and the Arabs, forget about the diplomatic process, forget about history, the problem lies in Israel character. To suggest that use of the term "Zionism" is simply rhetoric suggests massive ignorance of how fundamental this concept is to Israel and the broader Israeli-Arab conflict. Rejection of Zionism is largely at the heart of this conflict, it's not just rhetoric.

I must say I am shocked at the amount of understanding and support (rooted in real knowledge) for Israel that I'm seeing here in these forums. I've been to some other forums before, and the amount of pure ignorance, anti-Zionism and anti-semitism is abhorrent. Either you're all a bunch of Jews, or something, somewhere, has compelled you to make honest efforts to research and understand this conflict. Clearly the default and ignorant perspective on this issue is to view all people as the the same and equal, therefore the apparently downtrodden Palestinians and Arabs are victims of something (Israel and American support). It's the grade-school support-the-underdog mentality. When I see people supporting Israel's legitimate rights to live in security I always assume that this position was arrived at after serious research and and honest approach, contrary to the knee-jerk support of the apparent victims (Arabs) of the ignorant koombaya-chanters.

Exactly.

Can a person be an anti-Zionist without being an anti Semite? Absolutely yes. Zionism is a political creed and must be treated like any other. One can be anti-Communist without being anti-Chinese, anti- Capitalist without being anti American, anti-Globalist, anti-Anything. Yet, again, it is not always easy to draw the line, because real anti-Semites often pretend just to be "anti-Zionists". They should not be helped by erasing the distinction. Wrong, Zionism is much more than a "political creed", it is a nationalist movement for the emancipation of Jews from persecution around the world. It was a necessary movement to save Jewish lives. If you oppose Zionism, you oppose Jewish self-determination and liberation. History has proven to us that the world, on the whole, will not treat us equals and will not protect us when we are threatened. To be opposed to Zionism is to be complicit in discrimination against us (which has included, among other things, something called the Holocaust which murdered half of us). To be anti-democratic IS to be anti-American and anti-Canadian, as examples (and other countries, as well). To be a communist IS to be anti-American and anti-Canadian (and other countries, as well). The free-market (with many limits on it, of course) and democracy, as examples of political values, are inextricable from American and Canadian cultures. Is an Islamic fundamentalist not anti-American and anti-Canadian? The same is true for the ultra-religious Jews in Israel, they are anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist, and by extension anti-semitic (they hate other Jews who are not like them!). They are a threat to the very social fabric of Israel's secular nature. I don't know that most Chinese are hardline communists in their hearts of hearts, so I can't comment on that example. One must be a moron to pretend that political values, in some circumstances, are inextricable from the people on the whole. Zionism, on the whole, cannot be separate from Jewish identity. Can a person be an anti-Semite and a Zionist? Indeed, yes. The founder of modern Zionism, Theodor Herzl, already tried to enlist the support of notorious Russian anti-Semites, promising them to take the Jews off their hands. Before World War II, the Zionist underground organization IZL established military training camps in Poland under the auspices of the anti-Semitic generals, who also wanted to get rid of the Jews. Nowadays, the Zionist extreme Right receives and welcomes massive support from the American fundamentalist evangelists, whom the majority of American Jews, according to a poll published this week, consider profoundly anti-Semitic. Their theology prophesies that on the eve of the second coming of Christ, all Jews must convert to Christianity or be exterminated. Another moronic example from an idiotic liberal arts graduate completely ignorant of reality. To suggest that somehow anti-semites support Jewish self-determination via a Jewish state through these anecdotes illustrates that these despicable people fully supported Zionism's mission to provide a safe homeland and high quality of life for Jews is absurd. It's like saying that if a communist buys a product in America he's a capitalist because he engaged in capitalistic activity. Zionism's foundation is to save Jews from persecution and to preserve our culture from destruction. You think an anti-semite suddenly becomes a Zionist because he's interested in evicting Jews from his territory? This moronic idiot Jew then goes on to suggest that some of Israel's staunchest allies, Evangelical Christians in the USA (one of the most viciously attacked groups of people in America) are anti-semites by attaching beliefs to them to which they do not subscribe. This is typical of the suicidal liberal Jew who doesn't care about cultural survival. It seems to me that a huge portion of American Jews are idiots, anyways - they committed cultural suicide a long time ago. When a bunch of American Jews believe that a group of Evangelical Christians are anti-semitic (let's assume Uri's information is accurate), it doesn't make it accurate. Perhaps American Jews have been brainwashed by the campaign that's been going on for years against Evangelical Christians (and Christianity in a general sense) with the USA and Canada. If a majority of Muslims believe that America is at war with their religion, does it make it a fact? If a majority of Muslims believe that the CIA and Mossad were behind 9/11, does that make it accurate? Stop copying and pasting all this bullshit from blatantly anti-semitic and anti-Israel websites. It's so pathetic.

Hopefully, sometimes change can come from the top down. As you say, time will tell. The realist in me tells me that it's going to take a lot of time to change the Canadian ignorance on this issue - ideologically, this country leans heavily to the left, often in spite of its own best interests.