Bob

I guess it's one of the consequences of being an ultra-minority that doesn't proselytize or expand greatly.... and of having half of us murdered in the Holocaust.

AND... they would DEMAND that their government do everything possible to protect them. With Israel, though, apparently it's different!

As DogOnPorch has already said, the Arabs (including the Palestinians, of course) have received massive amounts of money from various countries. Most notably the Soviet Union prior to its collapse. It's flat out false to .suggest that only Israel has received large amounts of foreign aid. It's also devoid of any context, as it ignores all the reasons for the grants Israel has received from the USA.

How can you possibly lump Israel into the same basket and Iran and North Korea? How do expect you anyone in here to ever take a word you say seriously when you say such incredibly stupid things?

Do you think that Europe's pandering to the leftist, anti-Israel demographic overlaps with its rapidly growing Arab and Muslim populations? Sometimes I think that certain European elements are trying to appeal to this ethnic group, which we all know is overwhelmingly anti-Israel (and largely anti-semitic).

Are you suggesting that the FLQ is a viable alternative to the Liberal party in this hypothetical scenario? What's next, are we supposed to empathize with the supporters of Nazi Germany because they were undergoing a degree of economic hardship and hurt national pride at the time of their election of The National Socialist Party? Come on, get real.

Well, Palestinian politics are far more complex and nuanced than I could ever understand. Of course I am oversimplifying greatly, but it's a necessity with such a complex issue in an online discussion forum. Still, responsibility lies with the population for the actions of its government. This applies to Gaza. Regardless of Fatah's ills an ineptitudes, Hamas is an openly hostile terrorist organization that isn't subtle about it's anti-Israeli and anti-semitic policies. Please do not pretend that Gazans do not bear large responsibility for the reaction of Israel towards this election, i.e. the blockade and the 2009 Gaza war. Hamas didn't promise one thing during its campaign and become something else after being elected - it's violent and hostile attitude was well-known to all observers, and it acted upon promises of resistance and violence. The hostilities of Hamas in recent years are not surprising to anyone, neither is the reaction of Israel. The fact that Gazans are in a tough spot doesn't absolve them of their responsibility for voting into power an organization such as Hamas. End of story. Let's not pretend that Hamas and Gazans are two entirely separate entities, either. Hamas IS Gazan. There is a huge overlap, here. Of course not all Gazans support Hamas (I hope), but according to Jimmy Carter and many other, it was victorious is a legitimate election. Israel always has a choice over whether or not to talk to Hamas. Although not directly talking to Hamas, indirect talks have been ongoing through third-parties, primarily Egypt. Still, what do you expect Israel to do? How can serious talks take place with a party such as Hamas? Only a person who knows nothing about Hamas could suggest that serious talks between it and Israel could likely yield anything positive. I also never said that Gazans are all "valid targets". It seems to me that you're interpreting my position to be that Israel can legitimately attack all Gazans. This is certainly not my position nor is it Israel's position. I never said anything remotely resembling that. I have little sympathy, though, on a general level, towards the group of people in Gaza who elected an openly anti-semitic and anti-Israel organization. These people and their supporters hate me for who I am and make endless efforts to harm and murder other Jews in Israel and abroad. It's like asking a black person to feel significant compassion for a large group of underprivileged people that want to reinstate Jim Crow laws. I'm human, not Jesus. Israel fulfils a minimum level of influx of goods into Gaza, which is the softest blockade the world's ever seen from one belligerent to another - let's not forget that.

Another post that makes no sense. You're on a roll!

Do you ever ask that question with respect to why there is animosity towards the Arab and Muslim world from Israel? Obviously you do not. Either way, it's just another attempt from an amateur like yourself to dumb this conflict down to a "who started it" line-of-thinking. After the first grade, pointing the finger and proclaiming "he started it!" doesn't work anymore. It's an irrelevant question regardless of who you're asking it about: why is there resentment and mistrust between two sides is the honest question. Honesty isn't one of your strong suits, apparently....

I don't really know why I'm wasting my time talking to you, but if you're interested in this developing story (I doubt you are, as it's clear you'd rather just mold this story into your growing repertoire of false anti-Israel anecdotes), then you might want to read about talks between Israel and the EU, as well as Turkey, towards the end of loosening the restrictions of the blockade, while giving some degree of the responsibility of the monitoring of the transfer of goods and people into and out of Gaza in the hands of the EU and/or Turkey. If Israel can trust others to manage some of this blockade process, then it could alleviate a burden off of Israel - it's not easy or cheap to manage this blockade. Generally speaking, every way you slice it, Palestinians are a burden on Israel.

Clearly it's never occurred to you that Israel needs to take upon itself the responsibility and costs for inspecting what travels into and out of Gaza. Given the very real threat of hostility from Gaza, the looser the restrictions on movement of goods and people into and out of the strip, the greater the responsibility and costs borne by Israel. As the list of permissible goods into Gaza grows, for instance, so do the resources required to inspect this greater volume of items. The risk of something being overlooked or a mistake being made also grows with looser restrictions, increasing the risk to Israel's security. I've said it before and I'll say it again, one cannot reasonably expect Israel to put imports of jam and chocolate into Gaza on its list of priorities, given Gaza's very real hostility to Israel. Imagine if Canada was experiencing hostility from Quebec, and that Canada and Quebec were in a state of belligerency - would you be crying about Canada not permitting in chocolate and jam into Quebec? imagine that the majority of Quebec voted into power an anti-Canadian, violent political (terrorist) group responsible for, and vowing to continue, murdering Canadians. How would you feel about a blockade on Quebec for Canada's security?

There's plenty of footage on YouTube available for you to see which was shot by "activists" on the boats, including the Mavi Marmara. None of it contradicts the IDF position. How could you possibly contradict video, anyways? As I've already said, the IDF videos give us quite a bit of context into what happened. What are you expecting to see, video footage showing something else? If you have a video camera and I have a video camera and we shoot the same thing, do you think your camera will show something different than my own? Let's not pretend we don't know the type of people that go on these 'activist' tours. Let's also not pretend that there wasn't a preparation for violence among the passengers of the Mavi Marmara in anticipation of the IDF arrival on the ship resulting from the ship's non-compliance with instructions from the Israeli navy. They were psyching themselves up and making prayers for the violent altercation "against the Jews) they planned from the start. Forget about the fact that Israeli soldiers were stabbed and shot as part of the vicious attack. This is all documented - interviews with the and other people present on the Mavi Marmara. This matter isn't one of controversy. If we want to examining Israeli acts that deserve criticism we should look at Israeli government duplicity regarding expansionism/settlement building. How about the double standards when dealing with Arab protesters and Jewish protesters (guess which group gets dealt with more harshly...)? This story is a fabricated controversy entirely contrived by Israel's enemies. The "Free Gaza" and "Freedom Flotilla" is a one-sided, anti-Israel, anti-semitic collective of people. Pure and simple. They do not advance any positive cause or message.

If you really are concerned about the well-being of Gazans, and the broader Palestinian body of people, you'd focus on Hamas and its support among Gazans. Beyond that, you'd recognize the various terrorist factions within the Palestinian politic that need to be dealt with. Hamas has gotten what it wanted - not to have anything to do with Israel. Do you think Hamas wants open borders with Israel? Certainly not. Hamas's policies intentionally close Gaza off from what was once approximately 30% of the Gazan economy - commerce with Israel. Do you think open sea ports would fill this 30% void? You think Gazans can take a ferry every day to go work in Greece or Turkey? Does this seem like a wise judgment from Hamas with respect to the well-being of Gazans? If Gaza is to have economic security and an improvement in its quality of life it MUST deal with Israel. How can that ever take place if its people and leadership hold such animosity towards Israel? If you really want the quality of life of Gazans to improve, you'd concern yourself with Hamas and its people's position towards Israel (and Jews). What about the animosity between Hamas and the PA? What about Abbas' tacit support for the blockade (he supports easing the blockade, but not its entire lifting)? There is much more to say about this issue, but looking at your endless one-sidedness, there is not even one-inch of responsibility for this which you will allocate to Hamas, other terrorist organizations or even the Gazan public. To you, everything starts and ends with Israel. It's dogma at its finest.

I haven't said a thing against any of these organizations. I am rejecting your suggestion that people in Gaza are dying as a result of the blockade. You cannot back up this position, even the organizations you claim support you do not back up this assertion. Nobody is denying that life in Gaza is difficult, especially from our comfortable Canadian frame-of-reference. A humanitarian crisis, however, it most certainly is not. You can wrap yourself up in phrases like "international law" and "justice" all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you are brutally one-sided and dishonest. You do not acknowledge Israeli needs and concerns. People like yourself do nothing to advance the dialogue of these issues, rather, you perpetuate the animosity. Quite simply, you're a generic agitator. Hopefully in time you'll mature and evolve.

I certainly do not take anyone's word for it "just because". The concept that somehow the ICRC is to be trusted more than an involved party simply because they are "neutral" holds no water. This is a complicated conflict, and from much of the important (but not very well-known) information regarding this conflict, specifically with respect to the blockade on Gaza, is absent from this ICRC position. There is not a single acknowledgement of legitimate Israeli security needs. If there is no acknowledgement of these Israeli needs, given the thousands of rockets shot into Israel from Gaza only in the last few years (forget about the past century of anti-Jewish/anti-Israeli hostility from Arabs and Muslims in the region and abroad), then this report in effect is one-sided and ignores relevant context. Call the ICRC "neutral" as much as you want, this report you've presented from their website is anything but neutral.

The West gives "blanket support" of Israel's policies? Another falsehood. There are countless examples of diplomatic and political disputes between the West and Israel. You're also conflating the falsehood of America supporting Israeli policies down the board with "blanket support" from The West. Is America the entirety of the West? No. Please try to be more accurate with your suggestions, even when you're wrong. If you really are interested in learning about this issue, especially with respect to America's (which you confuse as "the West") role in Israeli-Arab diplomacy, why not read the memoirs of the parties involved in the negotiations? Kissinger, Baker, Aaron Miller, Dennis Ross, Brzezinski, Carter, and many others have written books and given interviews about this matter. Clearly you haven't read any of them. If you're interested I can hook you up with some of the audiobooks. The USA (and certainly not the West as a whole) has not given Israel "blanket support" over the years, contrary to your assertion. Much of the money the anti-Israel team hates that Israel receives from America was given towards supporting humanitarian work and rescuing diaspora Jews from persecution (although certainly some of this went to Israeli expansionism, which America has always opposed). Anyways, you have a lot to learn. Instead of listening to what I imagine are left-leaning professors in school (I took some poli-sci electives in university, also), learn from those who are much more involved and knowledgeable - you'll learn facts much more than skewed opinions.

You don't even read the sources you claim support your bias. One of your earlier posts implied that the WHO is in agreement with your suggestion that people are starving and dying in Gaza as a result of the blockade. That's simply not true. Yes, life in Gaza is uncomfortable - widespread unemployment, a huge dependence on foreign aid, scarcity of many non-essential items and services, etc. Is it a humanitarian crisis? Hell no. Please don't suggest that people in Gaza are dealing with even a fraction of the hardship that others deal with in examples such as the Haitian earthquake, the 2004 Indonesian earthquake, the war in Darfur, etc... This is to say nothing of the relevant context of the reasons for the blockade - Israeli security. One cannot expect Israel to prioritize the arrival of chocolate and jam into a hostile territory, let alone allocate more of it scarce human and material resources to inspection of a longer and longer list of permissible goods into Gaza.

That statement is a far cry from stating that people in Gaza are starving. You were the one who suggested that people in Gaza are dying due to the blockade. Perhaps some have died as a result of not having specific medical tools available, but that kind of thing even happens in Canada when people are put on long waiting lists. People aren't starving and aren't deprived of basic necessities in Gaza. It may not be comfortable, but it's by far the softest blockade the world has ever seen imposed on one belligerent by another.

I do not give Israel blanket praise, nor do I give Palestinians blanket condemnation. I acknowledge needs and shortcomings on both sides. I may not be perfectly objective, but I am always trying. I certainly cannot be put in the same category as someone like naomiglover. With respect to you, I didn't need to read many of your posts to realize that you're a newcomer to this issue, and you don't seem to have a genuine curiosity to learn about this conflict. That is of course your own personal choice, what you choose to learn about, but don't come in here and pretend to know what you're talking about regarding these issues when you haven't spent the time learning the relevant history. As far as I've seen, you're not in any position to be speaking with confidence on these matters. For instance, I recall you stating that Iran hasn't been a "troublemaker" in the Middle East. It takes quite a large amount of ignorance to make such a statement. I'm sure in time I'll have more opportunities to read more of your amateur-hour political analysis.

Care to elaborate? Your post makes no sense to me.

As I've already said, we can't have a perfect accounting here of social/cultural trends. Don't try to be smart with me by acknowledging the obvious - that we can't perfectly quantify these things. I well aware of this fact. There is such a thing as collective responsibility, though. I think we, as Canadians, are collectively responsible for out government's actions. This means we can take pride in what's done right, and feel bad about what's done wrong. On the whole, obviously, Canadians have a lot to be proud of - we have an amazing country that's on the extremely short list of the best places in the world to live. If a large organization is engaging in illegal activity, we can deal with the organization, even if not all members were participating in the activity. Obviously this is an oversimplified analogy to the much larger and more complex Muslim world, but let's not pretend that there aren't problems (political, cultural, social) present in the Muslim world that need to be dealt with, as they are a risk to our way of life.

Look, let's not pretend that there is some easy cookie-cutter answer to this dilemma. Of course if there is a problem with a particular group, there will be members of the group who are not a part of the problem. No social problem or cultural ill is uniform among all members of a given group of people. I feel that some condemnations I've seen from Muslim groups, for example CAIR, denounce terrorism in one breath and then blame American foreign policy in the next breath. Never is there a clear denunciation of the warped perspective of politics held among the perpetrators, supporters, and apologists for terrorism that shapes how they view American policy. To these messed up people, everything America (and its allies) ever does is immoral and an affront to their Muslim or Arab communities. Therein lies the problem. This troubles me.

So because the ICRC says so, it must be true? There's no room for disputing this matter, as the ICRC has the final say on what is and isn't legal? Get real. Beyond that, what's right, and wrong, moral and immoral, these concepts transcend legalities and pieces of paper. I care about right and wrong more than I care about the positions of an individual (legal expert or otherwise) in a some office. You need to drop your obsession with the term "international law". It's as if you can't wait to use it in every thread you get involved in, you fetishize the term so much, without ever acknowledging its subjectivity and frequent shortcomings. Nevermind the fact that international law is broken on a daily basis in Palestinian territories. Let's talk to one another as normal people, and examine issues as they are, and not constantly appeal to the positions of others that support our prejudices. You don't paint a positive picture of yourself when you constantly circle the anti-Israel bandwagon waving your "international law" flag.

All of them. Seriously, naomiglover, you are tiring to talk to. I initially thought about replying to this post, but what's the point? You're not an honest or balanced participant in these discussions. Reading your positions and rhetoric gets really old, really fast. All I'm going to get from you is dishonest stonewalling and more of your anti-Israel diatribes. I actually care about what happens in Israel and the Palestinian territories, and I know that a big part of the problem is people like you who become cheerleaders for one side. As soon as you choose a side in this conflict, you've given up all hope of ever working towards a manageable solution that takes into account the needs of both sides. I know Israel has its share of responsibility for this conflict, as does the Palestinian and Arab side, but lies about Gazans being starved doesn't enhance the dialogue.

I thought you said the WHO said Gazans were starving. Show me proof to back up that there are shortages of essential foods in Gaza, or that Gazans aren't getting the calories they need.