Bob

Can you ever make your own arguments or are you dependent on gimmick websites? Certainly you can make moronic arguments without the help of others? Let's tackle one of the problems in the assertions above, one apparently made by a law professor. SB 1070 specifically states that the bill itself cannot override or displace any federal law in its application. It's against federal law in the USA to do racial profiling. Thus, the logical conclusion is that law enforcement CANNOT form a racial profile of a group of people in order to go out and enforce this law. Furthermore, although "lawful contact" is a broad term an includes contacts between police and persons outside of simply dealing with those suspected of committing crimes, the police officer still must have reasonable suspicion that the person is in the USA illegally. Like any law with subjectivity, the details will be ironed out through future cases where there are disputes. More importantly, why is it so hard to prove your legal status in the country? Who in the world doesn't carry around documentation as soon as they leave the house? For those that don't normally carry around documentation when they're out of their homes (silly), perhaps they can make this simple adjustment to their daily routines given the new law and recognize the very real problem of illegal immigration that Arizona is facing? Yes, Huppenthal's suggestion isn't entirely accurate, but that doesn't discredit the legality or morality of this law.

Remember the vicious opposition e-verify with its 99% success rate? It's clear that the opponents of this bill, on the whole, are supporters of wholesale illegal immigration. They oppose every single effort, no matter how reasonable, to tackle the problem of illegal immigration. Not only do they attack the methods proposed and utilized, they even attack that illegal immigration is a problem to begin with. From illegal immigrants parading in the streets with Mexican flags espousing Mexican nationalist messages and contempt for America and its citizens, to false argumentation that illegal immigration is actually an economic benefit for the USA and that America is a benefactor from the exploitation of illegal immigrants... this debate, in many areas, has become pure insanity.

Your entire line of questioning is based on the flawed supposition that this law gives permission to law enforcement officers to arrest anyone who they suspect of being an illegal immigrant. What clause of the law gives this permission? Towards law enforcement efforts to identify and remove illegal immigrants, a little common sense goes a long way towards identifying what areas to target. Where do illegal immigrants congregate? Where do they work? Where do they live? Identify these areas and go to work.

You illustrate racism in this very post. "Most whites" won't do the jobs that the Mexicans are doing? What in the world are you suggesting? Do you really think some statistic (which is more than likely false) regarding the proportion of "low-skilled" workers is a sufficient volume of data upon which to come to a conclusion about the economic ramifications of illegal immigration? Let me guess, you avoided all technical subjected in high school, and continued to avoid them in university. Ever go beyond micro/macroeconomics 101? I'd expect more sense even from someone who *never* studied economics...

I actually find this part of the law somewhat ambiguous: A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES. Doesn't this imply that if a police officer believes that person is an illegal immigrant that the police officer can the arrest him or her? This seems redundant to an earlier clause in the law talking about "lawful contact".

Says you. Indeed, you support the terrorists.

Indeed Israel's existence is an atrocity.

So I just watched Jack Kevorkian on Larry King, it'll be replaying later tonight at midnight on CNN. Just a heads up to those interested in watching it. This man's a real hero. What a terrible thing that he was jailed for eight years.

Moral equivalence in action. Jews building homes for themselves is seen as an equivalent hostile act to the Arabs that blow them up.

I don't need the title. Neither do Jews in the broad sense. We don't sit on welfare and blame previous injustices. We don't commit crimes and blame previous hardships. We don't become alcoholics and drug addicts and play the victim card. We don't strap bombs to ourselves and commit mass murder around the world in the name of defense of our religion. On the whole, we do well for ourselves in free socieities. I guess that bothers you.

So the historic persecution of Jews is irrelevant to the history of Zionism and the culmination of the dream through the establishment of Israel? Are you this obtuse? Saying "lots of people get killed just for who they are" trivializes the Jewish experience of persecution. The statement isn't even true. No doubt part of your work towards delegitimizing Israel's foundation and Jewish character.

What's your point?

I understand your point. I also agree with the main point of this thread, though, that the world (governments, NGOs, media) all have a disproportionate focus on Israel and the Palestinians, at the expense of real attention being paid elsewhere.

I don't know about Romanis so I can't comment. Anti-semitism being more pervasive and penetrating more cultures doesn't lessen the suffering of other groups at the hand of their oppressors. This is not some contest where we need to compete for who has been oppressed the most. Jews don't view themselves as victims, anyways. There is no affront to other afflicted groups to recognize the unique severity of anti-semitism across history and even today. Jews are still murdered because of who they are in some parts of this world.

I was clear that I compared cultural trends of anti-semitism that are prevalent in the broader Arab and Muslim collection (which includes Palestinians) to a disease that threatens the lives of Israelis and Jews abroad. Anti-semitism is a social disease and it kills. Thousands of Jews and non-Jews alike are murdered by Islamic fundamentalists who are anti-semitic. When I compare that to a disease your sensibilities are somehow offended? I do not think Palestinians or their Arab and Muslim cousins are genetically inferior, I simply acknowledge the reality that it is common among them to hate Jews and Israel and glorify violence. I know some Arabs and Muslims who are Westernized and liberalized, but they themselves have confided in me that it is a generational progression, with much of their family remaining staunchly anti-semitic, anti-Zionist, and anti-Israel. Have a candid talk with an Arab or Muslim one day, ask them about what the political dialogue looked like growing up within their family and broader cultural circle. It's not hard to discover this. It's not deeply buried within them. Even easier - how about going to any Islamic website and reading their articles on the Israeli-Arab conflict? What do you think the perspectives of CAIR are on this matter? Go to any Islamic-activist website and show me one article that explicitly recognizes Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state without precondition. Show me an Islamic activist website that supports Zionism's successful goal of creating a safe-haven for Jews in Israel, and to permit Jewish self-determination. You know you won't do this, because it would then alleviate some of the ignorance to which you're addicted.

More lies. Go to any Holocaust Museum (all of which virtually entirely funded by Jewish and Zionist philanthropy), and there is thorough documentation on the Nazi victimization of many groups. Still, no other group was as targeted as the Jews in Nazi Europe. Whether it be the billboards and posters likening Jews to insects destroying to world, the yellow star imposed on those identified as Jews, the focus of Hilter's and other Nazi officials' speeches, or the shutdowns and destruction of Jewish businesses and communities. No other identifiable group went through the same degree and focus of Nazi persecution. Again, you are supremely ignorant of the Holocaust, and sickeningly try to suggest that Zionism has gone out of its way to exploit the Holocaust. Indeed, Zionism was around for many decades before the Holocaust, and Herzl himself had made harrowing and accurate predictions of what was coming to the Jews in Europe. Rather than being a movement for the emancipation of persecuted Jewry in Europe and the Middle East, in your twisted world Zionism was a profiteer from the Holocaust. Zionism sought to save Jews from the growing anti-semitism throughout Europe that manifested itself in the Holocaust, and Zionist Jews have been the leaders of research into the events of the Holocaust. No worthwhile Holocaust museum (the Holocaust Museum in Washington, Yad Vashem in Jerusalem, The Jewish Museum in Berlin) glosses over the broad scope of catastrophe of the entirety of WWII. You've never been to any of these museums, let alone read a book about the Holocaust - yet you pretend to know how Zionists have recorded the events of the Holocaust. You are a very disturbed individual, get help.

Israel's legitimacy is not dependent on the UN. If tomorrow the UN didn't recognize Israel, Israel would still exist. With respect to majority wishes, the majority of the resident population of the Middle East wants the Jewish state destroyed and the Jewish population liquidated. Thankfully, the UN and some in the international community are opposed to these wishes. Clearly, you are a supporter of Islamic dictatorships. How honourable of you.

No it isn't. It's a challenge from the Obama administration of the constitutionality of the new law. Clearly Obama and his crew feel that this law abrogates civil liberties beyond what they're willing to accept towards the objective of reducing the presence of illegal immigrants in Arizona. Put another way, the Obama administration agrees with the morons that suggest that this new law will lead to racial profiling and discrimination of Hispanics and some other ethnic groups. I'm not making this up, these are the words of Obama and his team. My take on this is that Obama is either a) deliberately trying to appeal to the worst of his supporters (the moronic extreme left) and/or he sincerely believes that this law is an affront to personal liberties. Your suggestion is ridiculous, unless of course you think Obama and his team are lying about their real intentions, and that for them it's an issue of "turf" - and that they wanna control this issue.

Earlier than that, had the Arabs and their Islamic perspective allowed them to views Jews as equal and not as subhumans, there might have been a difference in the subsequent conflict. Unfortunately, cultural evils die hard. Muslim society has not liberalized to the point that anti-semitism is a fringe trend, rather than the cultural norm. Absolutely. TrueMetis' perspectives on this issue were a joke as soon as started posting. Being the most hated enemy of Islamic fundamentalists (and other anti-semites) isn't a fact of life I enjoy, it's not like we're trying to win some award for being so hated by so many.

It's in every thread. When you see someone condemn Zionism, they're condemning Israel's foundation and ongoing development.

What's extreme about my views? Acknowledging that Arabs are a threat to Israel in words and actions? That makes me extreme? You think Haaretz and JStreet represent mainstream Israeli public opinion?

So Morris, Shlaim, Oren, Finkelstein, Dershowitz, Carter, Miller, Ross, Carter, Dayan, etc, etc, etc have all indoctrinated me? When I read Haaretz I'm indoctrinating myself? Get back to me when you've actually read something. ' Keep on linking us to dishonest fringe websites to support your misrepresentations of Israeli history and Zionism.

So? She's wrong.

I'm a Jewish accountant, and as a result still know much more about these matters than a liberal arts grad who took a couple of courses in Middle Eastern history taught by some professor named Abdul Aziz Muhammad from an anti-Israel perspective. As I already said, I'm not here to try and make friends. I long ago lost my patience for ignorance, so I'm not gonna walk around on eggshells and be accommodating to those who spread lies and misinformation.

I'm not your friend, and I'm not on Israel's PR payroll. I'm not here to make friends or sell anything. My demeanor doesn't alter the content of my posts. I've got quite a bit of free time on my hands before I leave for Israel and I came to this forum. I don't feel compelled to put my diplomatic hat on and "tolerate" your ignorance for the sake of getting bonus marks for good behaviour. Your desperate attempts to try and disparage my character don't mask your lack of responses to anything I've said, and your constant false statements. Really, it all boils down to you not caring. If you don't care, why would you be compelled to learn? And why do you feel bad about your own ignorance on these matters? I care, so I've spent thousands of hours learning about this in my free time, outside of growing up in an environment that learned about these matter (Jewish day-school, Jewish community events, Jewish friends, family in Israel, etc). It shouldn't offend you that my environment has compelled me to educate myself on these matter while for you it's a trivial matter to philosophize about casually in ignorance. You're not Jewish, you have no stake in these affairs, why should you feel that ignorance on these matters is something to be embarrassed about? Just admit it and be done with it. Post with a lot more humility going forward, stop talking about things you don't know. Maybe you'll learn something if you're honest enough to open yourself up to the truth rather than the propaganda that reinforces your false perspective of Palestinian victimhood at the hands of the oppressive Israeli war-machine?. Anything is possible.