Shwa

Of course I have a choice. But what I ultimately choose is not to succumb to fear and negatively over something that has proved to be very, very beneficial to Canada over the past 100 years or so. Look at the OP; the author has completely failed to show exactly how Immigrants should "Become Canadians" when the fact of the matter is, immigrants ultimately do anyways. They have to fit in here in Canada, because they have to walk down the street too.

Of course you are wholly referring to the Avro Arrow yes? You know, the advanced Canadian fighter jet that was going to be manufactured right here in Canada? Is that what you mean when you ask why do the Liberals want to destroy something of pride to Canada? Oops, it wasn't the Liberals. Remember the Arrow!

Threadscat?

Do you watch sports at all - in person or on TV?

Ahhh, I see what you are getting at, good point. But... but... Do you not think that it would be a better method to introduce change as a choice, then educate, but at the same time allowing the folks to choose for themselves? I mean, despite all the xenophobic reactions - where there are some - the crucifix remains in the Assembly. And it was only put there in 1936.

So then the question really boils down to who can stomach the gore which will be necessary to fight the CPC on their own terms? I am thinking Dom has the chops now. I am not as confident in Trudeau at this point and his pedigree might be a bit of a distraction. It is interesting that this over-conciliatory and over-diplomatic ethic has filtered down, at least in our local ridings, to the grassroots and is very troubling. I know quite a few formerly active old timer Libs who simply don't fit in anymore because they are still willing to scrap. We might call that old-school and some folks might point and say, 'oh, look at that church-like religious zeal for Trudeau,' but what they are missing is that those Trudeau era Liberals would take you on - pick your corner. Nowadays too many of them want to intellectualize everything and it comes off as simple-minded excuse making. The tough fight in Durham is that we have recently elected a whack of conservative city councils and their austerity-at-all costs horsehit attitudes. It's creepy and sad. The only way around that is to put 'em up and dance.

Well, here's the thing, especially for Toronto, then the GTA, then TROC: Toronto - Demographics: UK-centric in the Toronto and the GTA is a thing of the past. And I believe the percentages have tipped by now, that Toronto is more immigrant than UK-centric. By your logic, if immigrants want to fit in, they should immitate, well, immigrants. And you just know it is only a matter of a few years and Georgetown will be swallowed up by the Brampton hegemony. Just a matter of time now. Hide your teacups!

Likely the same negatives contained in "most Canadians abide by the law." But I am still going to walk down the street nevertheless.

I'm not Ken Dryden either. But yeah I am a card-less Liberal at this point. (I refuse to get a card because our local candidates have been as useful as... well, Ken Dryden) I am sure he is a smart, amiable man. My experience of him comes through other channels and he came across as bewildered and clumsy. Very Dion-like. Mind you, since that experience - which I wrote him off as potential PM material - I haven't bothered with him. That was a few years ago. I'll keep an open mind and check out his website. Hopefully there will be some killer instinct there, which was completely missing last time around and is completely missing from the LPC today. We don't need anymore cerebral pussycats.

Yeah sure, Justin Trudeau so long as his last name isn't a stigma of posh and privledge. Maybe in 10 years. However, now - today - Dom Leblanc is the man. He's done the work, he has the experience, he knows how to deal. A *new* Liberal, without all the baggage. However, Ken Dryden is completely useless. There is no chance of him being elected Liberal Party leader. Ever.

So you see no difference between a single complaint and many?

So true, so true. As Canadian a response as there is GH.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I mean, it is an interesting article and has relevance to a certain degree here, but hardly applicable to Canada in any meaningful way other than marginal influence which comes through opinion related news programming from the US. If could be that 'the right' in Canada is in conflict with 'all liberals and leftwingers' but it is hardly anything close to be called a war. As a nation we are a all very, very liberal and the few neocon types referred to in the OP are so far and few between in Canada it is hardly a contest at all. Heck, the lack of intelligent rebuttal from said neocons on this very board is an indication of how limp those folks really are in Canada. In the US, there is a reasoned response because there needs to be. In Canada, there is no need and thus no real skill developed towards those sorts of arguments all they have are weak one-liners or irrelvant slogans. The rightest we got in the mainstream in recent years was the early Reform Party and they had to merge with the Progressive Conservatives to even be viable to form a minority government. And, of course, once they get power their entire platform is as centrist - and liberal - as the damned Liberal Party. I suppose the piece is a nice contrast and can be used as such, but fails as an insight into the Canadian body politic. Chretien saying 'no' to Iraq II is more of an insight in my mind.

One would hope so, but Igantieff et al could have really driven the knife in deep with this one and decided to meekly persue Oda in Parliament instead. Which is sort of like a rubber knife. With no blade and no will to wield it. The issue has traction in the media now, but will it play with the same effectiveness in an attack ad in a few months? I dunno. Trudeau and Chretien would have gutted the Tories over this. Perhaps Iggy is a little more gentlemanly; sensitive and a heck of alot more hopeful.

Yes, and here is where we return to the question of the OP, and I am still wondering. We KNOW that, likely over hundreds of years of practice and display, that the prayer and symbols is a de facto mandate from the people to continue the practice and display, no harm, no foul. It's origins shrouded in tradition, we can't be sure if such practice and display was - at one time - some sort of plank, or even if it came up for discussion during the Quiet Revolution. Whether municipalities should have a prayer or display of religious symbols is one issue, and really I am neither here nor there on the issue. I don't really care either way. To me the larger issue of special interest groups driving change in this way is problematic. I mean, I have nothing against change so long as the target population has a right to - or a right to speak to - determining their own wishes. It seems to me that the people of Saugenay are being treated like they are collectively stupid or unimportant in the decision making process.

I'd disagree since you modified the word 'outcry' with the word 'public' thus changing the signification of the actual concept. One person stepping out could be construed as 'outcry' of course, but certainly not 'public outcry.' Unless you mean 'public' referring to a sense of place and not people. In which case a pedophile publically advocating for the lowering of the age of consent to, say, 8 year olds, fully expecting harrassment and even assault, constitutes 'public outcry.' The use of pedophile as an example is extreme and a bit cheap, I admit. But there it is.

Mine is Dr. Colin Carrie, a Roman Catholic chiropractor. He is firmly situated between Ministers Bev Oda and Jim Flaherty, so he gets the nod for some Parliamentary Secretary gigs. Plus he knows his way around a spine. Every once in a while we get a pamphlet in the mail from his constituency office. Nice guys finish last, and he really is a nice guy even though I didn't vote for him. The last couple of elections in the Shwa have been Cons versus NDP, the Liberals being a complete waste of time in this riding. Did I say the Liberals were a complete waste of time in this riding? Oh, right, I did. I just wanted to make sure it was understood.

As long as they can flip burgers or give change, they are trainable for our economy. Plus, it is useful if prospective immigrants have the skills and dexterity to zip up a parka. The cold assimilates.

Yes, and this is hilarious and really shows the complete lack of political savvy that Ignatieff and his cadre are all about. No killer instinct whatsoever. He is the Inge Hammarstrom of Canadian politics.

How do we do this and, better yet, how would we know it was done?

Then there is no mandate for change either, which is the point since there is no "enforcing" what is already accepted as a normal practice. And a fairly benign one too it would appear.

A single citizen is an example of "public outcry?" Huh. I want to own the city to give me the parkland in my neighbourhood. Do you think they should if I make a request to them and create a "public outcry?" MLQ - Quebec Secular Movement Now it could be that there are many "folks from Saguenay" that belong to the MLQ, but if that were the case then you would think that the "public outcry" would be a few more than "a" single person. Wouldn't you? I would.

LOFL! Yeah, maybe the STFU-and-go-pump-some-oil members would object.

Well not quite. There are plenty of municpal issues that can - and usually are - resolved without the requirement for it to be voted on like a referendum. I am sure that if there were enough outcry from the citizens, the council would be considering removal of the prayer and symbols. The fact that there hasn't been an outcry for all these years would lend a strong probability to the citizens deeming the prayer entirely appropriate. But I dunno, maybe they are all apathetic over there in Saguenay. Very good point, however, the recitation of the prayer or hanging of the religious symbols is not a unilateral decision by the mayor since the city has a council and citizins that could - if they wanted to - have those things removed. There doesn't seem to be any of that or even a hint of it thus far, although it might come up now that has become news.

Well said.