CAMP

Well it's been almost a year since the beginnings of the Canadian Alternative Members Party (CAMP) started up and now has amalgamated with the Democracy Party of Canada. We are well on our way to having our endorsements necessary to obtain party status. Now our big problem is finding a Chief Agent for the party. Does anyone know anyone who might be interested in that kind of work? Seems it's near impossilbe to find anyone. Any help appreciated. Tom

So I gather you're in favour of PR?

Really I don't think so. You should start investigating Independents. CAMP is forming them into a party that will become a political force as time moves forward. The best part about it is most Independents don't want the 1.95 and have no tax subs anyways because of the discrimination that exists in the Elections Canada act. Independents are true Canadians and finally are about to bloom into reality in a big way... just hang onto your hat and watch! Next online conference for them is March 27th. Last conference it was agreed that an association would be started that would be able to seamlessly morph into a registered party. All regions of Canada were present at the last conference as it lasted nearly 4 hours and covered a lot of ground. This is political history in the making for Canada!

I disagree whole heatedly with your analysis of a cop out . This is a simple case of not understanding the situation we as Canadians exist in. Yes there have been many political parties in the past and in fact there are approx 16 registered parties now... but the majority are fringe parties that get very little of the vote. FPTP worked fairly well when we mainly had 2 main parties. Even with 3 main parties it wasn't too bad. But now you have the BQ and Greens along with the NDP sucking up votes. These 5 parties are the main parties really, all others baring scrape the surface of obtaining votes as of yet. It is clear the more parties to split the vote up the more likely there could be a majority created with 30% or less of the popular vote, a poor democratic model for sure. PR fixes the system and creates a better democratic system. Just look at the power struggle in Ottawa between the parties now. PR would definetely cause them to have to work together better in coalition style and they know they would have no choice even if another election was called.

You are logically correct saying FPTP ensures that every region has at least one rep in parliment, however because of partisan politics and party towing the line you actually have no representation in many areas, and that is fact. Proportional rep would at least ensure some input from everywhere.

Canada has been fortunate thus far to mainly have two political parties namely Conservatives, and Liberals. This is why we enjoy a half decent country to live in. With the NDP along for the ride we have enjoyed for the most part a democratic situation in 4 year increments. With the addition of the block and the Greens and now the CAMP and the old boys Conservative Party called the PC's, we now are into a situation where the First past the post voting system doesn't work properly anymore. The more parties you have the more the vote is diluted and then less people wind up having voted for a party that may manage to gain a majority government. In fact it is quite possible now that a party could have 30% or slightly less and form a majority government. This just simply put is wrong. This situation goes against a truly democratic society’s philosophy. The only answer is to use some form of proportional representation. Other countries such as Ireland, Australia and many more where more than two parties sprang up decided to change from first past the post voting methods to proportional representation to get back to or closer to proper democratic philosophy. We need proportional representation in Canada badly now... REALLY!

. Hmmm interesting so you feel that the majority of Canadians wouldn't participate in the polling perhaps, or if they do they would be self centered egotistical types. I don't know what country or place in the country you’re living in, but most every one I chat with is fairly normal and able to handle answering a poll with reasonable wisdom. Also notice if you haven't read the methods, that there would be a period of fact gathering and educating the public on each issue both online and in the newspapers, so they can make a wise decision when they vote/poll. You’re assuming Canadians would not want to be involved, and you may be right, (but let's hope not). Those that do will have their voice heard and for those who prefer not to due to laziness or other reasons we have addressed this issue.. For those Canadians who don't want to bother with polling and getting involved in their countries political decisions other than to vote once every 4 years ( more like every year now) (both accounts sad really) There is an exclusion to proxy there polling inputs to they’re MP. So essentially those numbers who do not participate because they trust they're MP can do so by relinquishing their right to poll in-between mandates. At any rate get ready for one more political party at least and possibly a few more to dilute the vote even further and cause even more problems for our antiquated system.

I can go into how proportional representation works but I think it would be best to study the WIKI site for that so you will understand the types that exist. The two main ones are mixed member proportional (MMP) and single transferable vote (STV) go to the WIKI site ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation to read up. Please realize I can't put everything on the CAMP site and explain it in detail, this would just cause the website to get too large and cumbersome. As far as education and installing it, this must be done via the provincial governments (because they are responsible for education). Obviously federal and provincial governments would have to consult as to getting this done. Dynamic Democracy is explained in a straight forward manner how the system would work. I think the problem here is the website holds a wealth of information to digest and have it understood. I will be adding audio to each page in the near future and revamp the website to a more modern looking site. To register a party in Canada you need 250 endorsements filled out and at least one person to run in any riding in Canada along with a few officers. Presently we have approx 35 people who have run before as Independents and some who would like to run in the next election along with many other Canadians who want change.. When we are ready (and it will be soon) we'd like to have 500 members. Once that is achieved we will fill out the endorsements and then register the party. Elections Canada scrutinizes each endorsement, they will eliminate any they can't verify. 500 endorsements pretty much guarantees registration. We are slowly organizing the Independent candidates that ran in the last election that were normal candidates and not crack pots. (There are some strange people who run as independents) To run as an Independent all you need is 100 endorsements and 1000 bucks, so anyone with the gumption may run. Everything from pot legalizers to out right idiots have done this and have given a bad rap to the real Independents who don't want to be stuck in a partisan party, yet are real Canadians who want to represent their riding. (W CAMP is set up to eliminate partisan politics. I have two audio clips of an online radio station available for your listening found on the CAMP website under the CAMP NEWS page that explains the discrimination that Independents face vs being in a party. After you listen to the rules parties have made up to their benefit you may realize just how democracy becomes eroded with out the main population knowing.

I think everyone in this thread needs to study the Elections Canada act for federal parties if they truly want to understand what amount of democracy you have and how the partie we now have have skewed our elections. The main stream parties in Canada hijack your democratic system on a regular basis. The only true politicians are the ones that do what their riding desires. No towing the party line or having to listen to a small group of people (the elite bosses) that run the party. No matter Liberal or Conservative, NDP, Green or otherwise at the moment are different. They all reek of partisan politics. Canada will suffer year after year until the people finally get fed up enough to do something about it. When we had two main parties Canada did relatively well because democracy more or less prevailed in 4 year increments. Our system is no longer working in this nature because of the number of parties gathering up votes. Presently we are stuck with the first past the post voting system which causes a large sector of the population living with a government they did not elect, and in fact we may see a majority Conservative government or Liberal with as little as 30% of the popular vote. Proportional representation addresses this issue at least. I will say your true politician is an Independent who isn't off the wall and who could be conservative, liberal or otherwise. At least they represent their riding instead of being a pawn of a party and democracy prevails with them.

Generally from the posts on here I have met most of this criticism before. Criticism is good, not complaining. CAMP is a straight forward method of creating change in how our system operates with out dismantling it. Rather we would work with in it. Online voting as well as proportional representation will cause a more democratic result on any issue being put through the house. In fact we would also be taking the oppositions riding’s results and blending them in with our riding results on any polling to give a democratic answer. This party is set up to deal with the issues that Canadians actually want our country to deal with and also Canadians want input into. It eliminates partisan politics, which some here seem to relish living in or putting up with. Polling the public via the internet and phone in is a direct feed back method to insure that the public can push the government in the direction it desires. This party has a primary goal of improving Canada in an on going fashion. The 5 issue cycle would have a time frame that would allow public input, polling, and then democratic results. Notice also that the policies are clear (see policy #3 in CAMP POLICY page) about not forming a coalition with any party that does not up hold the constitution in a minority government. I'm really surprised no one commented on that one. I get the vague platform criticism often yet our platform would be dynamic. First we would establish the static portion initially such as Electronic voting using both phone in and computer, and then proportional representation. Education of our youth and any one else would also be established. After that the dynamic portion kicks in, just think about this for a moment. How many issues could be dealt with and cleared up in a 4 year mandate? I see a lot more items addressed than any other party who usually only deals with their few platform promises that in many cases don't even get implemented. (Campaign lies). In essence our platform is ever changing as to the will of the people and dealt with democratically. No more elite group of a few men doing their bidding with in their partisan power struggles that tend to cripple Canada and will continue to more into the future. Change is good. And good change is even better.

Well FYI there is a new political party gathering steam right now. Go check out www.canadian-alternative.com Read over the website and see what you think... you can listen to the radio broadcasts that two of the members have created and listen in. We are having an online conference March 27th at 8:30 in the evening all you need is Skype (free to download and use) and a microphone and speakers. Register for the conference on the CAMP NEWS page. Thomas

Still time to get registered, I'm on SKYPE and the conference is filling in nicely.

Also I will remain online here at the Mapleleaf if you need assistance in getting set up with software or hardware. Just wait I will be refreshing for messages here every five minutes or so... Tom

There will be an online conference today Saturday at 6 until 8 perhaps longer depending on involvement of people. The conference will be all about how to become an independent candidate and what's involved. Also I will be introducing CAMP the new political party for independent candidates and the advantages. This will be a very informative conference on the subject. If you've ever thought about running for office and want to know what's involved then join in. All you have to do is download Skype and have speakers to listen and if you want to speak or ask questions then also have a mike. Skype is free to download and everyone who has skype can talk just llike a phone with video to anyone else who has it on their computer. If you want to join the conference here is the information guy to contact now so you will be ready for the conference at 6 pm. Skype Conference call - message us with your skpe id and you will receive a call at 6:00 p.m. Time: 6:00 p.m. to whenever Participation is free - help spread the word. Your sponsor and organizer: http://www.independentcandidates.ca What’s The Independents Convention About? The Independents Convention will provide both networking and educational opportunities. It will be: Educational – History, constitution, etc. Motivational – Winning requires the will to prepare to win! Logistical – How the heck do I get started? Whether you are a past, present or future candidate you are urged to attend this event. The day will provide an opportunity for networking (being an Independent can be lonely) and education. We will update our speakers list as it becomes available. To learn more click here: http://independentcandidates.wordpress.com/about/ Contact us at: - [email protected] - http://independentcandidates.wordpress.com Registration: Pre-payment is not required, but pre-registration is required. In order to register please either: - email: [email protected] (name, address, phone number) - register for this event here.

Hi Molly, 1. Well there is no reason why online voting can't be considered safe. Online banking is done every day. In fact even if you walk into your bank or use a banking machine the whole banking system is online everyday all day long. So security is not an issue that they have a problem with transacting billions of dollars. Some how you seem to think someone can hi jack an online voting system. This is simply not true. The system software would incorporate checks that only allow one vote per person. No one is going to be able to place a 50,000 vote input or something silly like that. At worst it's basically the same... someone could if devious enough figure out a way to perhaps vote twice or steal someone's pin and figure out a personal question to be able to vote more than once, but that's about it. A computer system and it's software can be implemented that would be able to be scrutinized by human watchdogs. the internet is able to be tracked much tighter than you realize perhaps. Anyone can be traced right down to their exact location if necessary. 2. Electronic voting either by phone or computer would only enhance the walk in regular everyday way. There is no intention of eliminating one for the other. 3. Abstention is a valid act if done with thought or wisely. But it is obvious that 40 % of our population is not really doing this wisely. They don't vote for a wide variety of reasons. Electronic voting would address any of those reasons about time issues, getting there issues etc. 4. It is proven that electronic voting does increase voter turn out. There is no disputing this fact. 5. Therefore people would vote. If it's as you say they are just bingo voters and the votes would be spread all over, (which I highly doubt) at least it would plant the seeds of thought for paying attention to the news and their political surroundings more throughout the political term, and cause even more wise voting. 6. Democracy in Canada is declining. The only way to fix it is to get more people involved. Electronic voting is one sure way to do this.

But Molly your assuming that the 40% who don't vote now are incapable of making a wise decision. That's simply an assumption on your part. Most of these non voters are just fed up with the system and don't want to bother with it anymore. Democracy is the will of the majority of the people. You don't have that now and your slipping fast into what I would say is a 4 year dictatorship system (assuming a majority gov't). When as low as 30% of the vote can turn into a majority government that doesn't say much for our so called democracy. And now what you have is 3 or 4 major parties all trying to capture that 30%. No one can trust any group of politicians any more. Partisan politics has increased. Even lower voter turnout, a frozen government that will have trouble coping with issues. So some how it is your saying that unless you can walk to a polling booth your vote is just not worth casting. I say that is a prejudicial thinking

But if you think about it Molly when you do the walk in vote, you are still able to be scammed out of your vote. Whole boxes have been lost on previous elections. It is easy to cause issues with the main system now. Did you know that the people who run the polling stations are recommended by the incumbent who won the previous election in that area. I'm not saying anything about polling people who are above board, but anyone who chooses to can cause issues by getting into key areas and manipulate the situation to their advantage. Someone has to decide if a ballot is spoiled. Also with the online voting I wouldn't want a hard copy to keep. Just one more piece of paper that is confidential and able to be lost or stolen. The important thing to remember about this topic is what you gain in achieving online voting. A 30% increase in voter turn out! This will help our democratic situation greatly. Anyone who argues that laziness or somehow these extra 30% are uneducated and likely to vote unwisely are just unfounded assumptions.

Bingo Jerry, you have hit the nail right on the head in so many ways. Big partisan partyies and their leaders are deathly afraid of bringing in online voting because they know it will erode their strangle hold on government and put democracy back in the hands of the people. When as low as 30% of the popular vote can control a whole country and call it democracy there is something really wrong. The only federal party in formation I know of (correct me if I'm wrong) is the Canadian Alternative Members Party CAMP www.canadian-alternative.com and I'm definetly supporting them from now on.

The problem lays in the fact that if your moving around for whatever reason, you are on and off lists for voting purposes no matter walk in voting or online voting. The point is mute in relation to online voting. With either system it is still the personal responsibility to look after your right to vote.

Well then let's hope for your sake that it's a late fall election when the Chalet is giving away those yummy chocolates with their Christmas deal!

Well Bill no one is ever going to solve the problem of personal security in regards to women and their husbands. If a husband is as controlling as you say, chances are she's staying home and not voting at all then. As far as security of the actual vote. All I can say is here's how it would shake down. You would be on a list just like you are now and get a card and pin number in the mail. The second part would be the security question part which could be as simple as entering your birthdate or more complicated question. Either way you must have the pin number and be able to answer a personal question to be able to cast an electronic vote. So there is the main difference from a walk in vote where you show ID and vote privately behind the little cardboard stand. I guess it could be said that anyone could use your ID to go vote in a walk in election also. So as long as you keep your pin number on your person like you do your bank pin and know your personal question it's secure. Of course theft either voting method erases security. Now as for keeping your vote a personal secret... that's up to you.. vote electronically on your own, don't do it at a bar in front of everyone. As far as security of the system electronically that the information won't be tampered with... that's up to the human element again. The walk in ballot is the same, anyone can corrupt the system and in fact probably more people could do that system in many easier ways because it is so simple, doesn't require a hacker with special knowledge, just someone slippery enough to find a way to do it. And there has been slippery times with our regular method in the past. As far as recount or audit, the computer system can give real time statistics and be monitored directly by a human monitor (s) and is also backed up on more than one computer system. The electonic voting would occur 7 days prior to the walk in vote so all online voting would be kept strickly confidential to the auditory board. It's secure as the walk in vote. I live in Kitchener so I know all about Toronto people, travel there quite often. And small world but I use to supply a company that makes vacuum tube guitar amps with wire harnesses a few years ago Yorkville Sound. I use to fix TV's stereos and all sorts of electronic gear so details are my specialty also. You will be very surprised as to when electronic voting begins provicially. It's not that far away.

Well said. Like anything new there will always be opponents to change. They try and find every excuse and possible dream senerios of corruption. Paper ballot walk in voting has many ways it could be compromised also. There is a human factor that sorts out spoiled ballots, whole boxes known to be lost. etc. I could sit here and dream up even more scenerios, but why. It's obvious that online voting will happen and in fact I can tell you it is well under way in provicial election circles. The advantages are exactly as you speak, and I know of a party that is well under way in establishing registration to use online voting in a powerful way in the future. In the future you will see more Independent candidates and parties. Eventually proportional representation will prevail and partisan politicians will be history. Thank god.

Well Wild Bill, sorry if I offended you. Some on here assume because your able to have many more people vote that would use electronic voting that they would not vote wisely. That is just an asumption with no basis. As far as male dominated cultures are concerned.. well I guess we have some of that. So I ask what's to stop their wives from even showing up then. Obviously if they are that controlling they most likely would say stay home and watch the kids. Just another excuse. An online vote is still a secret ballot vote. It is private and secure. The truth is we will have online voting in the near future ... no stopping it. Oh and just joking Bill... I got you beat... I programmed PDP11's for IBM long before PC's even existed... chances are I can call you sonny boy... hehehe