KeyStone

Hamas was formed at a time when Israel was attacking Palestine and their charter reflects an 'at war' attitude. However, Hamas has backed away from that and has come close to making several agreements with Israel. They just haven't updated their paper yet. You're kidding right? Here is the Wikipedia entry for celebratory gunfire. "Celebratory gunfire is the shooting of a firearm into the air in celebration. It is culturally accepted in the Balkans, the Middle East, South Asian regions Pakistan and Afganistan and in Latin American regions like Puerto Rico as well as some areas of the United States." Not sure what you are patting yourself on the back for, but there seems to be a misunderstanding. I did not mean to imply that the santions against Hamas occured as a result of the most recent rocketfire. I'm saying the international community didn't ignore it. Of course, when a country ignores as many UN resolutions as Israel, they don't have quite as much credibility when they whine to the UN. Israel and the West encouraged Hamas to become a political party and engage people through a democratic process. Then when they do, and win, the West decides to cut of all the funding? Phenomenal. So, its ok to be an obscure political party, but not Ok to actually have any influence or power. Any proof that Hamas is controlled by Iran? The IDF have killed A LOT more children than Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah and Al-Aqsa martyrs brigade combined. But, oh, they wear uniforms. Big friggin' deal.

Well, unlike Bull, Vanunun wasn't showing other countries how to build weapons. His only crime was exposing Israel's lies (that they didn't have nuclear weapons) to the world. This is how much Israel thinks of free speech. 18 years in prison, can't leave the country, and can't talk to journalists. Quite a nation of freedoms. I don't want to invest 25 minutes so that I can respond to an online post. If there is something important in the film, just spit it out man. Yes, thinking that Israelis would care about human life is stupid.

The alleged fraud that you cite is interesting. First of all, when Israel occupies or invades, their standard practice is to ban all foreign media. Then, the only media getting out is Israeli media and the occasional home movie. These home movies for the most part are Arabs showing dead and injured children. Since there doesn't seem to be any dispute about the fact that children are dying, you have to ask yourself why Lebanon or Palestine would feel a need to make fake videos of dead children? Obviously, they show the children to put international pressure on Israel to stop the killing. But, why fake it, why not use real footage? There are no shortage of bodies of children? a) The bodies are destroyed beyond recognition? It is too dangerous to retrieve the bodies? c) Children aren't really dying. It is just an Arab trick. They are playing happily in a grassy meadow? d) Israel tries to discredit each and every video coming out of there (real or not), so that people won't feel sorry for the Arabs What do you think the real answer is?

Do you really have any proof of Arabs false news industry? Or, just a lot of Israelis spinning things? Who knows. There are hundreds of sites each way, claiming the other side is a liar. But, let's take a look at this Israeli free press that you are so supportive of. Do you remember an Israeli citizen by the name of Mordechai Vanunu? He told the world that Israel had been lying about nuclear weapons, and had developed them. Israel kidnapped him in Italy and made him serve 18 years in prison for his free speech. Even today, he is not allowed to speak to foreign press, and not allowed to leave Israel. I'm not watching a 25 minute film so that I can respond to your post. I get it. They dig tunnels to smuggle stuff in - mainly because of the sanctions against them that make it impossible to get the most basic goods. I saw the first few minutes, so what? Hey, if Israel wants to admit that they killed her because they didn't like her meddling and didn't care if she was killed.fine. But they don't. They stick to the story that they couldn't see the 23 year old woman in an orange fluorescent jacket with a megaphone. Just one of many examples of Israel's deplorable lies.

I think you're missing the point Sharkman, Israel already claims that they tell Hamas where they are going to attack. I'm saying, if Hamas already knows, then tell the rest of the world too so that there is no doubt as to Israel's intentions to warn people in advance. Who knows if Hamas even passes that info on to the people of Palestine? See the previous posts for the context. Please stop whining about the MSM hating Israel. It's just too ridiculous for words. You don't really think that Palestinians have more influence over the world media than Israelis do you? It's just beyond absurd. Surely, you can think of more creative lies than that to justify the murder of women and children. Shouldn't be hard, since the defenders of killing chidlren, recycle the same lies. It's a complicated situation, but if you really think that it's all one-sided and Israel is ever so innocent in all of this, then you are just being ridiculous.

You probably won't hear anyone bring it up until Ontario has a surplus. Now isn't really the time for Ontario to be slashing its coffers. Unless you find someone dumb enough to think that reducing taxes and spending is a good way to get Ontario out of a recession, but that's unlikely.

Well, I do agree that teachers shouldn't be asking for big raises, or other benefits now. They should be asking to stay where they are, and maybe have their wage raises tied to inflation. However, this nonsense that teachers work 4.5 hours a day, and have a super cushy position is nonsense. You look at any corporate sector, where you have someone go in and train the employees. These people are often getting 100k a year. Name one non-government teacher/instructor that makes less than what teachers get. They also don't make 80k. That's the top salary - if they are the head of a department, have a masters degree, and 15 years of experience. Teaching is not as easy as you think it is. You can't goof off, and surf the Internet and debate on political forums for instance. All this teacher hate is ridiculous. They are smart people that work hard and they deserve a decent salary.

I figured there would be plenty enough people to call Drea on it. Obviously, nuking Israel would be wrong, and would be a terrible mistake for whoever did it. That would be a disproportionate escalation of violence, much like how the Israelis have had a disproportionate escalation of violence. Both actions are wrong, although a nuke, would be even more wrong. This isn't anti-semitism. This is anti-Israel, but regardless, it is a flagrant disrespect for life. There are plenty of posters on these boards, who display an equal level of disrespect for the lives of Palestinians.

This whole topic is foolish. Are there some gays who chase the bug? Probably at least one, maybe even as much as 0.000001 % of the gay community. Are there some gays who willfully infect others, hoping to spread the virus? Probably a few. Are there some gays, who know they have aids, but still want to sleep around and have unprotected sex? Sure, just like heterosexuals. My point is, there are always crazies, and people who are irresponsible. It's reckless to associate an entire community with the actions of a few individuals. For instance, there are white people who want to see all the black people killed or enslaved. Does that mean we should brand all white people with the same brush, and make gross generalizations about white people? No. There are 'Christian' ministers, who actively campaign for the deaths of gays, and go to gay funerals and cheer. Does this mean we should accuse all Christian ministers of such behaviour? Of course not. Let's try to be grown-ups instead of presuming that the token nutjob is an accurate representation of the entire community.

Well, if you are in Canada, and you are wearing a bright orange jacket and screaming with a megaphone, and you still get run over by a bulldozer - they don't call it in industrial accident - they call it murder.

Well, setting up a scale of how employable someone is, is one way. Another is just to accept that there will always be people who can't work for one way or another. Ensure that they have the very basics - food and shelter - regardless. Whatever their problem is, I don't envy someone getting $550/month to live on, even if it's a 'free ride'. Then, creative incentives for people, such that they can earn up to an additional $200 per month if they: - Apply to a certain number of jobs - Attend training courses - Attend lifeskills workshops etc. In other words, you get them to jump through some hoops so that they can enable themselves to get back on track. If a person hasn't had a job for a couple of years, they need a lot of help, to get back on track. You can't just write them a cheque, and expect things to turn around.

Do you think that's common? Do you think lots of teenage girls dream about getting pregnant and staying home to look after kids while getting the 'free ride' of $800/month for themselves and their child? There are always scammers, and you cut down on them as much as you can, but ultimately, I would rather see one person cheat the system and get a 'free ride' then see one person in need of legitimate help get denied. I lived in Alberta for a brief period of time in the 90's. I met 17 year old boys who had no job and nowhere to live. They couldn't get welfare. They couldn't get jobs. Instead, they tried to hide in the malls so that they would have a place to sleep, and would sit in coffee shops without buying anything until someone kicked them out. Klein's great idea then was to give them bus tickets to BC. It's sort of like raking the leaves off of your lawn and dumping them on your neighbours. That's not really a solution, and not a Canada that I can be proud of. Well, there are different types of unemployable people. There are people that have mental illnesses of different sorts. There are people with addiction to drugs or alcohol. There are people with no living skills, and no hygiene. But more, there are people that are just discouraged. They have failed to find work, or they have found work only to get fired within a short time. So what do you do with them? Just throw them out on the street and tell them to find a job or starve? Or do you let the compassionate shoulder a much greater proportion of the burden than they already do?

Hey, I'm agreeing with you. I am just trying to understand the rationalization for this witch hunt. Generally, everyone seems to think that punishing deviant 'pedophiles' - and the definition of pedophile seems to keep expanding is heroic, whereas there are very few people willing to actively defend 'pedophiles'. I can tell you right now that I would never publicly weigh in, on the side of the pedophile. There is too much hate towards them, and anyone who associates with them, or defends them.

Well, getting involved with Israel/Palestine is really out of their jurisdiction. However, backing the coalition makes sense, and is acting in the best interests of the union and its members given that Harper's bill that he wanted to bludgeon through would have removed the workers right to strike.

Maybe, maybe not. Israel has all kinds of reasons for knocking down homes - many of which are created after the fact. The fact is Rachel Corrie, an Amiercan citizen had a bright orange jacket and a megaphone, and the driver claims he couldn't see or hear her. If his vision and hearing are that obscured, perhaps he should not be driving into a civilian area then?

Well, if they tell Hamas, why not tell the whole world, so that they can prove that they let Hamas know in advance. Just make a press statement and say" Tomorrow, we are going to bomb the UN school. The day after that, we'll take out a couple of hospitals. Why not make it public, so that they can really prove how sincere they are in avoiding civilian casualties? It doesn't make any sense to me, but Israeli supporters are so fervent in their belief, that the lies don't even have to be remotely plausible to be believed.

Well, of course Rachel is responsible for her own death. After all, she risked her life to try and stop Israelis from bulldozing homes. So she is responsible for her own death, in the same way that Canadian soldiers are responsible for their own deaths by signing up to the military, and police officers are responsible for their own deaths for signing up to protect people.

Well, alright, there are the people who can obviously not provide for themselves - such as the handicapped. Then there are other groups: An 80 year old woman - do we make her get a job at Mcdonalds? Do we say that she should have saved her money? I realize we have Old Age pensions, but I am looking at this in a broader context. What about those with poor skills, looking for a job but unable to find one? Do we just dismiss them and tell them that they should try harder because there are jobs out there? What about those with various mental illnesses that are hard to diagnose? Depression, chronic-fatigue, anxiety? Do we just assume that all those healthy people without jobs, just don't want to work? Well, it's like this. Currently, I think welfare in Ontario pays around $550. With that amount of money, you live in a dive, with a roommate, eat Ichiban noodles 3 times a week, and have no entertainment budget. You'll never buy a car, go on vacation, or in the case of men, never really be able to take a lady out on a date. Is that really something that appeals to many of us? Would we trade in our $4000/month incomes for that, so that we can avoid working? Obviously, if welfare is so high, that it is similar to the wages someone can produce, we have created a disincentive to work. However, I see nothing wrong in raising welfare rates to a level, where people can have a place to live, decent food, and some quality of life. Look even a minimum wage job pays $1400/month - of which about $1300 is take home pay. Even if we raised welfare to $650, it's still double the amount they would get on welfare.

Obviously, I have no way of knowing either. However, as for Israel's motives, there are a few considerations. 1) Although they pay lip service to being extremely careful with their targeting, the number of schools, hospitals and women/children they have killed would seem to say otherwise. Perhaps these are just mistakes, and Israel is covering up by saying that rockets were fired from them, in the same way that a cop who shoots a civilian, would say that he thought they were pulling a gun on him. 2) Collective punishment is nothing new for Israel. They have demolished orchards, homes, and generally waged an economic war on Gaza. It isn't that much of a stretch for them to kill women and children intentionally, to send a message to Hamas. Kill our women and children, and we will kill yours. If you target our civilians, we will target theirs. 3) Perhaps they want to kill the terrorists only, but don't know how since the missile launchers don't stand around in a field waving a big Hamas flag. So instead, they basically kill anything they can find and send the message that if they can't figure out who did it, they'll just punish everyone, kind of like the teacher who keeps the whole class after school because she can't figure out who fired the spitball. Hamas might be doing it, because they wrongly assumed that Israel had enough respect for human life that they wouldn't bomb a school. Or, as you say, they might be doing it, hoping to see a school blown up for propaganda reasons, although I find this unbelieveable. Now, neither you nor I nor anyone on this board, can say definitively whether Hamas is firing rockets from schools and hospitals. It's possible. However, when you have two sides in a conflict and only one side is telling the truth, a good indication of who is lying is the side trying to block international observers and foreign journalists. Here are some examples: If you are trying to decide who is lying between Mugabe and Tsangarai. - it is Mugabe blocking foreign journalists. If you are trying to decide who is lying between North and South Korea - it is North Korea that bans foreign journalists. So, if you are trying to decide who is lying betwen Israel and Palestine - do a search on 'banning foreign journalists' and see whose name comes up most prominently. If it's Palestine, then it would seem that the Palestinians have something to hide. If it's Israel, then it would seem that Israel has something to hide.

I would agree with that. The other countries don't particularly care about the plight of the Palestinians, as evidenced by the number of refugees they take in. A lot of their support of Palestine, is a way for them to fight Israel by proxy, and get non-Arabs out of the Holy lands.

Let me ask you a question. How do you know that Hamas is firing rockets beside school and hospitals?

Right. I'm sure that the Israelis dance with glee in the streets whenever the Palestinians kill an Israeli child, since it gives them an excuse to kill as many Palestinians as they like.

Well, I would certainly not be impressed with Iran if this was true. However, 1) Your source is a site that you must admit is biased towards Israel. 2) The alleged source is an unnamed official from Egypt. So, I can't give it that much credibility. Israel has been trying to manufacture an excuse to take out Iran's nuclear facilities for some time.

Right? And you have fact to back that up? You are of course aware that Israel does everything it can to confiscate cameras, and deny the UN presence and foreign journalists in Palestine? But hey, don't ask questions why, just believe what the Israeli media and their supporters tell you. I wouldn't say that we all do. There seem plenty here who don't seem to care how many children are killed. Israelis lie. They lie about everything in regards to Palestine. They try to block as much information from Palestine as they can. They deny any information that comes from Palestine that does not have evidence. Even when there is evidence, Israelis lie, and claim that it is faked footage etc. There are so many dupes out there willing to believe every word Israelis say, that Palestinians now have to stack the bodies of children together side by side, so that the Israelis can not claim that they are just dragging one body around and re-shooting it. We know that a lot of children are dying and we know that many of them are dying in painful, grotesque ways. The Palestinans are trying to show that to the world so that somebody helps them, so that the international community puts pressure on Israel to stop. But Israel finds a way to even turn that against them - calling every video that they produce a lie and a distortion.

OK, when in Rome..fair enough. I'll stick to making gross generalizations, and telling offensive lies instead. I guess that analogy would make sense, if you think that Nazis are innocent.