Moonbox
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Posts posted by Moonbox
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Any "valid points" (imported from the U.S.) have been countered with the reality of firm contracts, continued development testing, and low-rate production. Are there any "valid points" to be offered with a truly Canadian context?
That most contracts, particularly non-US ones, are not at all firm, and as we saw with the Raptor and we are seeing already with the F-35, production numbers can end up being MUCH lower than previously expected.
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What are you doing? See the pointy finger reference.....
I'm commenting on your trolling. Waldo hasn't been trolling you. He's been trying to have a conversation and you guys have really just been baiting and mocking him when he's brought up valid points.
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Add to the equation the number of of NDP 'r's being elected from la belle province and "NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair has support from 41 per cent of Quebeccers, according to a Forum Research poll."
It is indeed an interesting time to be a Canadian who is interested in politics.
The big question we have to ask, I think, is whether Quebec is all of the sudden on board with the NDP, or if instead it is hijacking the NDP altogether. If the NDP can remain a truly federal party, things might be looking up. If, however, the NDP turns into the new Quebec-centric party, the CPC is going to be in charge of things for quite some time (barring a revival of the Liberals).
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A further demonstration of people not taking you seriously Waldo?
Not really. You're not taking him seriously because you're trolling him.
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Le Manuel d'exploitation de la CF-35 pour les membres du NPD
Étape 1. Entre.
Étape 2. Démarre l'avion.
Étape 3. Frappe le gaz.
Étape 4. Chante Alouette, dis vos prières, plaigne très fort.
Étape 5. Décolle. Note : poussant sur le bâton vous fait descendre, pas monter.
Sorry for the crappy French.
No problem! Slightly corrected hopefully...but I'm like 12 years out of French school so I'm sure it's still not perfect.
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I think it moved.
okay THAT was really funny.
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It seems they are irrelevant right now - already. TROC cares not what Quebec wants (for whatever reasons please them).
So, you see the answer to thier irrelevancy is to elect liberals/Conservatives thus becoming relevant again. Then they can
get the stuff they want!
Kind of circular argument isnt it? Become relevant by voting conservative then become irrelevant by getting what they want.
That's not the argument at all. The argument is that Quebec should abandon their petulant "Our way or we vote Bloc" mentality and realize that the country doesn't revolve around their protesting. Alberta figured it out when they transitioned from Reform to Alliance to CPC, and look what happened. They moderated, they accomodated and they won Ontario and a majority for Harper. A lot of people out West are still frothing at the mouth that abortion and gay marriage are legal, but they kept their cool and still voted Conservative.
Edit to add: Also there is the third option: vote BQ/PQ etc and either achieve Soveriegnty or have the ROC parties pander to them. That works too.
All I have is a big *yawn* for the sovereignty argument. Montreal isn't interested. As for the Bloc, you missed the entire point. You don't need Quebec to win a majority, nor do you even need Quebec to run a minority. The Conservatives have proved that through several terms.
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I just reading a seperate thread and I came across an interesting post by wwildbill that I thought merited further discussion. I'm sorry if this is cross-posting or whatever, but regardless:
Quebec has left itself with no voice of power in Ottawa. That leaves them with only the perpetual threat of separation as a lever. That situation has changed as well, with large portions of TROC now believing that losing Quebec would save them much money, in a time when money is very tight.
Bill started off talking about how strict supply-chain management for things like dairy etc is in danger of being eliminated, and he brought up how strongly Quebec has always supported this type of protectionism. At any rate, with governments in the past, there was always a strong element of pandering towards Quebec (Chretien Liberals and even Harper in the early days are recent examples). Quebec was always seen as necessary to winning a majority government in Canada, and although their desires seemed to differ strongly from anglo-Canada, governments often caved to them for their support.
This time, however, Harper won a majority with barely a whiff of support from Quebec, and he's not likely to improve that anytime soon. He's in a unique position now, where no other PM has ever been, to start dismantling the 'panderism' that Quebec's enjoyed for a long time. He couldn't care less what Quebec wants/demands, because as far as he's concerned it's a political wasteland.
We've talked about it a fair bit before, but Canada has never been more 'regionalized' in my lifetime than it is now. A lot of people will blame Harper for this, which I guess they can, but what I think it has more to do with is the fact that what Quebec demands from the federal government is so far divorced from what anglo-Canada wants that this was a pre-determined conclusion. As long as this divide continues, the situation isn't going to improve. As English-Canada becomes increasingly more and more pre-eminent, this is only going to get worse for Quebec. It seems to me that they have two options. Either they can either continue down their current course, and become more and more irrelevant, or they can moderate a little and again make themselves part of the federation. The Bloc Quebecqois or any similar alternative is not going to help them moving forward. Let's see if they're smart enough to figure this out.
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now... if you don't know about the impending U.S. budget sequestration... and what it particularly might mean for U.S. defense spending,
waldo you and I are very rarely on the same side of an argument, but I'll give you some friendly advice for this thread regardless. They're not reading your references or cites, and they're certainly not interested in a reasonable argument. The F-35 is a debacle, it's clear to anyone who cares to look at how much the program is costing and how delayed it already is, and it's almost certain it will be delayed further. When most of the responses you're getting are stupid (not even funny) things like this:
NEWS FLASH
US Air Force disbands due to pressure by waldo.
"We've decided to play golf instead", claims Air Force spokesperson. "You're on your own."
you're better off not bothering to respond.
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Ding...ding...ding...ding! Thank you for proving our point. So how long does Canada want to wait...30 years?
Proving your point how? Libya's AA network would have been garbage 25 years ago and easily dismantled by the Americans even back then. Combining faulty and bargain Soviet tech with incompetent leadership and poorly trained operators is a proven recipe for failure. Add to this that Libya's armed forces were long the laughing stock of Africa (not the world - Africa...let that sink in), where rebels driving technicals were evenly matched against Libyan tanks, you start to get a picture of their efficacy. Adding 30 years of obsolesence to an already useless armed forces just took them from 2% effective to 1.5% effective.
What the Americans spend or don't spend really isn't your worry, until you wish they had.
Except Amerrrica doesn't exist in a vacuum, like a lot of you seem to think.
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You're right. Expensive. Trouble is, in the air combat biz, 2nd best doesn't get silver.
The Americans are already so far ahead of the game it's not even funny and will continue to be for some time, with or without the F-35.
So what? Some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. The Americans are going to do what they have always done, and that means more investment in "battlespace dominance". Remember that little dance in Libya last year? Guess who destroyed most of the air defense network with...ummm...errr..."unique capabilities"?
So what? Libya was running a large, but dilapitated AA network that hadn't been upgraded for 20-25 years. That's the wack-a-mole I was talking about.
Allies who get it are buying the same technology to keep up...or get left behind.
Yeah we already went over that.
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Whoopy. It's still going to cost $150-200M, or more, per plane. People have started calling the F-35 a flying piano, which is pretty funny.
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Justin Trudeau would probably be the best choice for the Liberals. I'd never vote for him, because his father was Canada's worst PM ever as far as I'm concerned, but I bet he could single-handedly throw the NDP back 15 years in the polls and get young people to vote for him.
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Seeing that the Americans can do both of the above already, why did they develop this C&C system?
because they wanted to fit too many things into one plane. Unfortunately, it's turned out to be way more expensive than it was supposed to be.
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Combined with the Multifunction Advanced Data Link, this capability will enable a F-35 to not only track an ICBM launch, but share tracking data in real-time with an AEGIS Destroyer/Cruiser to launch ICBM interceptors (SM-6s) but also forward target locations to cruise missile armed subs, a B-2 filled with JDAMs or a 155mm Howitzer loaded with an Excalibur……….
A couple of things...first, ICBM launches can be detected by satellite from outer space. Second, nobody needs $150M/unit recon planes. That's what drones are so good for.
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In the end, the Americans and other buyers with firm contracts will have new stealthy strike fighters...and others won't. Billions more is also being spent on the next generation of tactical aircraft.
Congratulations. You'll end up having spent probably 2-3x as much money as originally budgeted and have fewer planes than you originally projected. We'll probably be joining you too. I'll give you a high five when we get to the party...
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Canada can do whatever the hell it wants to, but the F-35 program will not be canceled, just curtailed and stretched out.
Obviously. At this point, however, the program is ridiculously far off the original mark that it probably should be cancelled, and people knew that years ago. In the end putting all their eggs into this one basket seems to have been a mistake, and it's too late, too expensive and too embarrassing now to back out of it.
The F-22 program was not canceled per se....production was stopped at 187 units. The "program" continues to this day for spares and upgrades.
Yeah thanks. I know...
Or....not, since the flyway cost is still estimated to be about $75M.
Smallc, I usually find you're one of the more sane posters on this forum, but sometimes you really stick your head in the sand. Virtually nobody, aside from Harper and the Tories, are estimating a $75M flyaway cost. Defense analysts aren't, the Pentagon and DoD aren't, foreign governments aren't and anyone that can follow the numbers aren't. Get real.
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Yes ... buyouts/severance, another cost to add to the mix that looks more and more like political pandering than 'savings'.
All environmental services have been targeted as well as any other personal dislikes Harper wants to get rid of.
It's not financial/economic: It's Harper paying off his backers.
Buyouts/severance are still far cheaper in the long run than actually paying the contracts. Buyouts happen in the private sector all of the time. It saves the companies money.
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But, if Canada really wants to play the NATO game, we'll need the right gear. Since I already know you view the F-35 as a failure (thus pointless to 'debate it' w/ you), what aircraft do you have in mind that Canada could use for its NATO operations?
Maybe spending ~$200M flyaway cost/unit so that we can play wack-a-mole bullying third world militaries isn't worth it. At this point, it's starting to look like everyone would be better off flying gen 4.5 aircraft, at 1/2 to 1/3 the price, for the next 15 years until someone competent comes out with a more reasonable platform. Canada's going to have to go along with whatever the US and its allies do, but the ideal situation for me would be to see the Pentagon pull the plug on this debacle.
To put this in perspective, consider the F-22. In the overall aircraft mix, the F-22 was originally conceived as the modern day F-15/F-14. It was to be the overpriced dogfighting cadillac of the sky. The F-35, on the other hand, was meant to replace the F-16 and F-18. It was to be lighter, cheaper, far more numerous and fulfill all sorts of roles. Strangely, the F-22 was cancelled because it was deemed to expensive. At $150M/unit (with very few built), the F-22 is stealthier, more agile and more deadly than the F-35, which although originally meant to be the cheaper alternative, is turning out to be far more expensive. That just gives you an idea of how far wrong the whole process went.
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Only reason why I stated the obvious is because this site has become booooring!
Nothing here to look at,time to keep moving on.
WWWTT
You mean you don't have as many opportunities to troll and bait people into moronic arguments? Oh dear. I can only hope that this place remains boring for you. Maybe you'll move on and spare us.
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Which nations have left the program again?
What does this prove though Derek? An equally revealing question would be which nations have locked themselves into contracts and/or received any planes so far? Answer met that please.
It should be clear to Derek now that waldo simply will not answer questions.
He addressed the question for what it was - completely irrelevant and a pretty lame attempt to misdirect the discussion from the very real problems the JSF program is facing.
As I’ve been saying to the esteemed member Waldo, actions speak louder then opinions words
Well then why are you asking dumb rhetorical questions and then insisting that the obvious answer somehow disproves waldo's point, when in fact it means absolutely nothing?
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Yet, the Government just signed another contract with Lockheed......
Are they locked into anything yet? No? So who cares. If you need me to I can link you all sorts of articles about how upset the US government, Pentagon and basically everyone is about how the JSF has progressed - WAYY late, grossly overbudget and with few solutions in sight.
I used to be all in favour of the program, but not anymore. I have completely different reasons from waldo, because his are based on his expert opinion that manned fighters are already obsolete, but I think he and I would both agree that the program is an unmitigated disaster at this point and will go down as one of the biggest fiascos in US military procurement history.
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False statement.
Only the voters in the respective ridings of each of the leaders mentioned voted for those party leaders.Special note would be in the last election Ignatief lost his seat because he did not garner enough votes.Kind of makes your statement ironic actually.
Thanks for the great lesson. We had no idea!
It's in my opinion that many voters vote for the leaders party(that the voter likes),but many do not.
WWWTT
Most voters don't know jack **** about the election, know less about the specific candidates in their ridings and vote based on which leader they like best, so yeah.
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Or..... the only thing keeping this country growing was the policies the opposition forced on the Conservatives and as time goes on and Canadians are worse and worse off it will be the CPC dropping like a rock.
What specific policies are you talking about punked? I'd really like to know how uncle Jack saved the Canadian economy. Really, I'm dying to know.
You would just love that wouldn't you? Just because that is how your behaved when your team wasn't in power does not mean that is how all of us respond to adversity.
Ooh. Bill gets slammed with a left hook kindergarten comeback. "I know you are but what am I!?"
F-35 Purchase
in Federal Politics in Canada
Posted
The Americans can cancel their contracts, the Canadians can, the Japanese can, the British can...everyone can.
Also, I didn't say the program would be cancelled. I said it was starting to look like it maybe SHOULD be. As for contracts being firmed up, could you provide us some specific information on that? From what I've seen, nobody appears happy with the cost or progression of the program and everyone seems to be dithering about final numbers etc...