eyeball

No, you'd say that if the house was clearly engulfed. The chief and crew also have a responsibility to keep themselves from becoming casulties too. Good analogy, Afghanistan, Iraq etc as the burning house and the US as the hysterical parents. Sometimes restraining the parents is all that a fireman can or should do.

Once a few supertankers spill their loads up there no one will want to claim responsibility for administering it.

I'm sorry you had to see this, it sounds traumatizing to say the least. I suspect however its just a fraction of the atrocities being committed by dictators we are otherwise giving a free pass to. If Canada, starting right now, was as committed to putting itself between the people who create and nurture these as you are to put yourself between the kids and the monsters you describe, I wouldn't begrudge you a single penny. I'd be willing to pay far more in fact, I'd be willing to commit our country's entire economy. Our government however appears to be as indifferent as ever to some of the world's worst regimes in the face of everything it says its trying to do in Afghanistan so I have no faith in this mission and truly believe it's all in vain. I think false hope is worse than no hope at all and the unfortunate people you speak of would be better off if they could evolve beyond the superstition and backwardness that's hobbling their culture the hard way like our's did. Perhaps I'm wrong but I just think its too late to be trying to save the world from itself one hellhole at a time, not when there are other more urgent matters we need to start preparing for as a country. Our planet is heading for a very very rough time. Only a few determined countries and societies are going to make it through a rapidly approaching ecological bottleneck and I think we risk being dragged under. There will come a point, rapidly, when its every country for itself again. Like I said, turn course right now or forget it.

Get a grip Morris, you get a half point at best for calling me on being a CO. http://www.consciencecanada.ca/home/ So there's your half point, I'm actually a COMT, a Conscientious Objector to Military Taxation. On the other hand you lose points for needlessly questioning the veracity of statements regarding US support for dictators. Its happening as we speak and Canada is apparently OK Jack. I wonder how many Canadian made componants were incorporated into the advanced weapon systems Bush is currently peddling in the ME? I suppose the Canadian military corporations that made them also received a bunch of taxpayer-funded government subsidies. My right to conscientiously object is being denied. My sense of denial here reminds me of what I've heard said about the experience of abuse - if it feels like its happening, it is. The Charter of the United Nations declares that, "…everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion…" (article 18); Canada is bound by this under international law, and our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees, "…Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: (a) freedom of conscience and religion;…" You've got a point, perhaps there should. I wouldn't be shirking anything at all. My money and taxes represent my work. Forcing me to work for the military is conscription therefore using my money and taxes against my will for the military is too. I'd still be paying my taxes like anyone else except my money would be going to non-combat spending instead. If you had the courage of your convictions you'd be calling on the country to reinstitute conscription. Please do, I can't think of anything that would put an end to Canada's involvement in Afghanistan. What's really reprehensible is your implication that I'm loathsome because I object to war. Everything is political, especially with you it seems, but that has little if anything at all to do with how I feel.

You know dick about the amount of volunteer time I've put in as a fireman, or as a committee member on local governance boards, or just generally helping out around my community. Just for the record I can't stand watching hockey and if you'd been paying attention you'd know I opted out of EI years ago. If you're any indication it looks like there are even worse things a person could have up their ass.

To Major General Mackenzie; You have stated there is dearth of any kind of military experience represented in Parliament and it seems you are now appealing to Canadians directly to generate support for the military's missions in Ahfghanistan and elsewhere. Do you think Canada's military would receive more support for its missions if ordinary Canadians could have a direct say in steering military policy through things like referenda and citizens assemblies?

Freedom of conscience. This is coming from a church Morris. You've voiced the opinion before that the basis for most of our laws flow from the moral teachings of the church. Why not in this case? This is certainly a moral issue.

I'm tired of bashing my head against the intransigency of these forums too. I'd rather see the justifications you've cited being put forward by our so-called leaders so they can be weighed by the entire world, publicly and transparently, in something like the global Truth and Reconciliation process I proposed earlier.

If militarists are queasy about war bonds the Peace Tax Fund the United Church of Canada has endorsed should really make them puke. Link The government of Canada is still to this day in violation of Article 18 of the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights. It saw fit to ratify it but it ignores it nonetheless. Isn't this is the very same sort of fickle ambivalence towards official responsibility that pisses so many ordinary Canadians off? Of all the reasons Canada's military families should have for being wary about getting involved in Afghanistan, our governments propensity for making committments but failing to live up to them should tower above all else. This is why war bonds should appeal to military people. They would know exactly how much public support they really have before they put their lives on the line. By the same token a Peace Tax Fund would also provide them a reality check. As it stands right now all soldiers really have to go on is the ever-shifting policy of a few politicians and a false sense of hopeful camaraderie that's mostly based on ideology and the self-serving propaganda of the military-industrial-complex. By the way, did any of you folk's watch Why We Fight on CBC the other night? Whoa, I can hear the hisses already! I don't know of any churches taking up the cause of redirecting people's taxes away from the CBC but I can probably suggest a political party or two that might.

Canada is with America. We provide them with the raw materials they need to build weapons that they give to dictators along with finacial aid and intelligence. These dictators use these things to subjugate and terrorize their people and destabilize their region. The US is a state sponser of terrorism and chaos and we're part of the network that enables them - by the very same criterion the US uses to define its enemies. By far the worse thing we supply the US with is our moral support. You should be deeply troubled by that and we should be deeply ashamed of ourselves. I object to leaving responsibilty for deciding when it is appropriate to go to war or with whom to politicians. I objected to the Liberal decision to join America's invasion of Afghanistan and I object to the Conservatives decision to extend that mission. In addition to requiring that war-bonds be the way to raise funds for offshore military deployments the government should also be required to put the question of when to go to war in the first place to a national referendum. You hawks are always telling us that the majority of Canadians also support you and that your primary interest is spreading democracy and I suggest your extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. War-bonds put the onus on you hawks to not just pitch your line but actually sell it. If you can't...I guess that blows. In a world where invasions and pre-emptive strikes based on murky unfounded reasons and a deliberate absence of any historical context are the norm I'm not only a conscientious objector I'm a terrified one.

I already did. Canada joined the coalition of the willing, when it supports thugs like Mushareff so do 'we'. These other things like The Millenium Bomber, have nothing to do with Canadians paying for offensive military deployments abroad with war bonds so lets focus on DND spending instead. Many Canadians including myself strongly and conscientously object to the military being used in their name for offensive military actions abroad like the invasion of Afghanistan that we've participated in for example. I suggest war bonds be used to ensure that conscientous objectors are not forced to fund/support these actions. Objectors wouldn't have to resort to tax revolts, and supporters would still have the opportunity to demonstrate their support. Its a win win for everybody.

Does it matter that he tricked our system, I suppose. What really matters is that he still got caught, without the use of the military I might add.

We hadn't been supplying any dictators with weapons or looking the other way when they terrorized their people or their neighbors with them. No, the UK just happened to be underneath the target when it blew up. Are you suggesting the DND assited the millenium bomber? That's certainly news to me. Why are we being friendly to military dictatorships while also trying to spread peace and democracy? You can only have it both ways for so long and I think we've tried to have it long past the point we should have. The likelihood that we have become a target proves that. I notice other countries that became targets have backpeddled on their willingness to continue fighting, I'd like to think we could learn from that before its too late. No, I think it would be better if we didn't make any enemies to start with and with friends like your's... I didn't say anything about these things so why are you?

No I'm afraid you don't see. I view the practice of aiding and abeting dictators as being primitive and criminal.

No, no and no. Of course I care. My head is not in the sand, and we were not a target of Al Qaeda until our snipers were involved in action in Afghanistan under US command. That sort of violence would only begat more violence Morris. We'd be far better off applying sanctions against countries that continue to aid and abet dictators and despots. Like the House of Saud, Saddam Hussien, Mushareff, the list goes on and on and on.

You didn't think Weaponeer's post was disgusting? I also never called him a pervert.

To be fair, I think these kids coaches, teachers and parents should show some solidarity, support and set a good example and join them. You'd think if the state was really truly serious about winning the war on drugs it would be attacking the demand side by making drug testing mandatory for everyone...if it was serious that is. You're either with us or against us right, what have you got to hide?

Jesus was simply a humane being. Christ is a fantasy. I was asking how many people think Jesus would abuse a person's sexual relationships the way weaponeer did. Look, I'm not going to stand for someone beating me over the head, attacking my kids, raping my wife or attacking my country. Nor will I support Canada's military being implicated in a so-called war against a people that never attacked us in the first place. All that has been accomplished in the long run is that we've been placed in harm's way. We sent the military to Afghanistan to capture a criminal involved in a crime that no Afghani took part in in. Then we changed our tune and called it a War on Terror which then changed to the Global Struggle against Terrorism. Its obvious we're just making it up as we go now because we really never had a clear rational for getting involved and we certainly don't have any clear exit strategy. Yes its great that we've built some hospitals and schools in the short term but I don't think they'll last beyond a few years at best. We can push as much democracy out the back of a Hercules as we like in Afghanistan but I highly doubt it'll take root. Democratic civil society only evolved in our culture after hundreds of years of conflict, mass murder and a painfully slow dawning of enlightenment and humanity. There's a good reason why the term medieval is so commonly used in the context of Afghani culture. If Canadians want to use the military to go about the world spreading democracy and freedom then lets discuss that and come up with a clear plan for doing so. I suggest we don't start with the hardest nut to crack. We'd be better off fixing the easier countries first and then recruit them in the effort to fix the harder one's after we've had some practice and success. Otherwise we should focus on neutrality, stop interfering in other people's affairs, strenghten our own borders and country and let evolution take its course in regions and places like Afghanistan. The very fact we've been so ambiguous about our reasons for getting into this stupid war/struggle/police action whatever you call it, is what will finally kill Canadian's support for this mission. Its why I never had any to start with.

Of course I see it as a problem. I'm deeply concerned for the entire planet and everyone that calls it home. If you think the impact we're having to the ecosystems of this planet is a problem now, just wait until we're in an economic depression in a world filled with hate. I admit it I'm terrorized. My comment about super-powers going down stems from the OBL quote that Brain Candy posted "We are continuing in the same policy to make America bleed profusely to the point of bankruptcy,". The Soviet Union dashed a good part of itself to pieces against Afghanistan while sinking in an economic quagmire similar to the one OBL says he's preparing for the U.S. I'm certainly no military buff but isn't it smart tactics to lead your enemy into a swamp so you can finish him off? Its what I'd do. Like the old Soviet Union was before it, the US is mired in a worsening economic situation at home and a disaster of its own making abroad - against the same people. Al Queada, the Taliban, Islamofacists, Pakoslamists, call them whatever you like for all I care. THEM as opposed too...I'm sorry, but I just can't make myself say it because I've never believed a single word of it. Misdirection and confusion doesn't nearly capture the sheer stupidity of it all. Contrary to what some would have you think of me I won't be dancing in the streets with my bullseye poster if the U.S. does go down. I imagine I might feel at least one cold 'I told you so' moment however. Who wouldn't after 7 years of the shit and abuse that traitorous skeptics like me have been subjected to?

I know that military folks often believe God's on their side so I'm curious, how many people think Jesus would use a similar approach if his beliefs were being challenged?

What's far more important are the things that motivate a nation's population or its government (the two don't neccesarily always agree) to use an army. What its actually being used for is what really counts. In the case of most countries, including ours, only a few people in government ever seem to call that shot. The rest of us have been largely left out of the decision and any discussion Joe Six-pack has been involved with has had more to do with generating a consensus as opposed to building one. I'd like to know who gets to decide when or why an army should be deployed outside its borders in a country like Switzerland.

It stands to reason that an army is only going to be as effective or good as the government directing it. It is after all just a projection of that government. Same thing works in reverse in a country ruled by a military junta.

I was responding to your original post where you said that American colonists revolted to gain their independance ie they decided to no longer be English and yes they were better off for it, for awhile. It seems to me they have long since lost forgotten what it was they revolted against. Americans are again fearful of their government wheras our government is more fearful of us, as a government should be. In the end, we're the one's that are better off.

I agree but judging by the way things have turned out I think they forgot what it was they revolted against in the first place.