old_bold&cold

It was reported before that the Afghan Army needed to be a minimum of 80,000 strong and well equipped and trained men to be able to be a stand alone army. That is 16 times what they seem to have now. They also need to pay these soldiers reasonable wages, as if they pay too low they will be open to corruption. That was just for the army not the police. The taliban was so quick in taking over the land because they just killed anyone who spoke up against them. They blasted the giant twin Budda staues that were thousands of years old from the sides of mountains, as they do not allow buddist learning. If you talked about anything they did not like you were either killed in front of your family or whipped. Woman who showe flesh in any way were whipped and anyone caught playing music or any thing of enjoyment were whipped and beaten, sometimes to death. When you do this and do not care for any life you take, it is easy to conquer the land. When you have to differentiate between the people and the hidden Taliban, it takes much more time and effort not to mention the risks involved. Hell if we were the Taliban, and did not care who or how many died, we could end this in days, but we would be way worse then the problem was in the first place.

Hey I have been over the line many times and yes I have been told a time or two to edit this and that. But I also know that sometimes we let tempers get the better, and type more heated then common sense dictates. No problem, from my little corner. I do wonder though, maybe if I send Harper a christmas card with my return address will I get one back? I probably would and if I was even to go as far as to sent Easter and other greetings, I bet you would would also get one back from him. Maybe we should all do this just to see. The jewish people can send cards well ahead of their holidays, and then see if they get one back. After that do not send one to him until he sends one to you, just to see that you are now on a list for holiday greetings. We could do this with the GG as well. I am willing to bet that this will prove to be right. Maybe we have some Greek holidays coming up or even other religions. I will bet you that you will get a return card from Harper and Family. This will prove that the cards are harmless, and just done in what people would call good taste. Plus you will have a souveneir for later on in life. The only point then that would remain is how did they get the list that has caused all the trouble? The answer could be as simple as a firend or neighbour could have thought that you would have liked this, or maybe a rival thought to do this was a good joke. But when wishing a holiday greeting to anyone becomes something to have inquiries about, then we need a mental health check on those involved.

While we can not stop the poor from having children, we can stop having the children raised in poverty. If we find a couple who just can not afford to pay for groceries, rent and clothes for their family, we can do as we now do, and that is pay them a subsidy so they can meet basic needs. But if we find that these people do not even try to get some sort of work that would allow them more money and less public assistance, then we should lok at having the children from this moved into a social service type arrangements for a year, and if there is still not hope for the parents to deliver a stable and healthy environment, the state should put the children up for adoption. Most of the couples who wnat babies to adopt would also adopt kids up to 4-8, if there has been no real mental issues. It is sad that here today we have people who would gladly adopt children and raise them in good stable homes, with a healthy lifestyle, when we have many kids locked inot their parents own poverty and abuse cycles. It si not that there is not enough of demand from both sides in this but rather the goverment needs to lear that there is a tipping point, in helping thru social services and when it needs to step up as the state and say enough is enough. I know I would like to think that the numbers from each side would balance out all the needs, but I do know eventually we need to make people have enough self esteem, to make this a priority to them.

Yes I was there in that time, and yes, I can support the fact that we did extend the honours and associated dignity to De Gualle. He did kind of throw this back in our faces with his "ViV Quebec Libre" cry from the balcony over looking many french people and also english from Quebec. I do not think he was wise to do this and while he tried to cover this up as a mistake, it was still a fact and should not be taken as a mistake on our part, but only a lapse of judgement on De Galle's part. The rtuth be known France does not like Quebecers and treats them like vermin when they are there. My wife is French and I am english, and every where in France that we went, if she spoke her quebec french, they questioned and corrected her openly or simply ignore her. I got better service in english and they were polite to me. I had to on several occassions step into things and admonish the server for his bad taste in always correcting her french. His attitude was that French is not spoken by the people of Quebec, and they should learn to speak it right or find another language to learn. To say the least, I fought the urge to thru this guy into the Sienne River, and if I was not in another country, I would have. My wife always being polite, used mostly english for the rest of our time there. We loved Paris and most of Europe. The french are noted for being rude and confrontational. That also might explain De Gualle's rudness here as well. If quebers ever even played with the idea that France would welcome them, they are sadly mistaken. They would be thought of as the lowest of low class. I am not saying I agree with that, but it is what I saw whenI was there.

The deportation of this guy is a good thing, as yes he had lied in order to get refugee status here and then he went on to cause as much hate as he could. It does not matter that his Canadian wife is now pregnant 7 months, as it was a decision she chose and it should not have any bearing on this at all. We do not stop her from joining her husband in Tunisia if she wants to. I think that finally we have some action on what appears to be a more recent shift in attitudes, by the Canadian public. That being, they have seen enough of this and they want this same action taken quicker and much more often, to remove those who have come here by illegal means. Yes lieing on the refugee claiment forms, make them illegal aliens. We also are seeing that the people of Canada are demanding that these people be sent back to their homelands, even if they claim, they will be tortured and abused. If that claim is not seen by our officers as being a sure thing, then we send them home. If this guy wants to start disrupting the social order in his Tunisia, then yes I am sure he will get charged and all that follows this, in his homeland. There are true and real people who are refugees, and deserve our time and ability to help them. But one like this only serve to make helping those who deserve it, much harder to do. But with the way this has ended, it holds some hope. I just wish it did not take so long to do it. Maybe we can speed this up and that way the deserving will be processed quicker, and they will probably fit in much better then those who only come to tell us how evil we are here, for our very way of life.

Personally, as a Canadian citizen and voter, I think Harper has done the right thing and yes the meeting being made public and even any discussions about world events and even politics, should not be something Canada, should hide away from. China may not be happy about this, but China should never have any input into Canadian policies or the choices of who we speak to and give favour to in our country. I am not sure really that anything the Dalai Lama, has to say about his views on world events and politics, would be that out of whack with what we all believe here in Canada. China's repressive leadership, can have all the fits it likes, but while he is visiting here, we will treat him as a religious leader and a deep thinker in world events. While I would not go to any of the speaking engagements, personally. I will be glad to read about them in the news and other current events methods. It will not change my way of thinking, but it may open some new ideas, I really can not say for sure, until I read about them. As for China, I have pretty much made up my mind about them being a oppressive state, and I do not even come close to seeing them as a stable body. But I already knew that long before anyone else could change my view. China needs to first fix up their own record and correct abuses, before making any comments towards what we do here in Canada. Harper has the right position in this and he should get our support on this without any regard to China's view.

The vast majority of Canadians do not know what the senate does and they do not care to learn, but rather just get rid of it. Save the money for some other thing. Even of those who know what the senate does, a very large number also say it should be changed or gone. This is not something that Harper has recently got on to, but rather something that he has had for a very long time. Even it the senate was stacked with CPC, he would still be wanting to change it. It has never been a thing that he saw as a working tool of government. While yes the senate is trying to give Harper a tough time right now, he is enjoying that as it is that kind of thing that is giving him a majority, the next time an election is called. People are starting to see that he must be a great PM, if he can get things past in an minority government. They will see him as working for the will of the people. The opposition refusing to bring his government down, is exactly how he said like a professor telling the student all that was wrong with his paper, and then giving him a passing grade. He is not overly pushing his joy in all this, but you can bet a few guffaws were let out once away from the cameras. His mission to reform and triple E senate, will just be an extra along the way. If he was really wanting to fast track this, he easily could. Even with the guidelines for doing so.

I can see that, and I would say that given another couple months, that number will be much higher. There will not be any way that the Liberals can use the scarey Harper lable without it backfiring. But as the Liberal party is all about shooting themselves in the foot lately, I am not so sure they will not try this tactic again. Canadians can see without all the political manouvoring, that Harper is getting things past in parliament, and he can only do that with majority support, so he is the one that will get the credit. They do not see this as forcing and bullying, as they know he can not do this without getting support from some where, to warrant a majority position for things to pass. He has shown that not only can he make a minority work. He can do this woithout there being a new scandle every day. He governs with dignity, and yes, he does command control of his people, just like any good commander should, as he is ultimately responsible for all their collective actions. Something that the Liberals never managed to do and that is where we learned how to point fingers in the first place. Soon that 40% will climb towards this 60% figure, as more and more people take closer looks at what is happening lately.

While I will agree that Harper does want an election to happen asap, I also believe that now that he has been deprived of this, he will simply roll on with plan B, and that is to put forward a good solid fiscal budget, with wide reaching tax cuts, and it will be drawn from a wish list of things the Canadian people want. Once that buget gets past, it will be next to impossible to stop a CPC majority from happening. The Liberals swallowed all their credibility to survive the last round, but at a cost that will be even larger later. Dion will never unite the party and it is only a matter of time before the rest of the liberals see this and want desperately for an elction to be called, just so they can lose it and get rid of Dion. I do not see Dion resigning as leader before he has had an election, but it sure would be the smart move for the party, but they are too busy trying to shore up their own asses, as much as possible. There does not even seem to be any good backroom advice coming out and I guess that is because they are all pointing fingers, while the ship sinks. Sadly, we have seen this on smaller scales before, but I guess the lessons learned then, are not being used now. This only helps Harper and his plans, so from that point, I think Harper must look at this like Christmas come early. I wonder just how far this will go in melting down of the liberal party. It may well go down the the last man, if someone does not take hold of them and give then a good shaking. I never liked Manley and I do not think of him as PM material, but yes he is a good team player and maybe that is the type of thing that needs to come forward now, and in a big way.

Harper has governed the way he should. If he governed like a majority in a minority position, we would have had an election by now. People say foolish things, when trying to describe Harpers methods and ways, but clearly if he did run the government in such a rough shod way, would it not be up to the opposition to then bring the government down. So, that being said, I feel that Harper has run the government as it was designed to be run, and the majority rules. He could not pass anything if the majority did not support it. The only time that the majority took Harper to task was with following kyoto, and they only did that when it was not madeas a confidence motion. The real culprits in all of this are the oppositions. They are the ones who can control what actually gets past in this government. Harper has been very astude in ensuring only those things he wants done, and are also within what the majority would support, have been introduced. That is why he has been so successful as he has been. It seems though that few people are willing to give him that credit though. Face it, when it comes to being able to operate within a minority government, Harper is head and shoulders above all the others. They all accuse him of pushing his own agendas and not seeking consensus of the others, yet the oppositions pass the things. How is this Harpers fault? There is not any one better suited to be PM then Harper is at this moment. Can anyone even think of Layton as PM? or Dion? Lets not forget Duceppe? How about May? Scarey isn't it? So, before we go picking a fight about how Harper is a big bad wolf, in sheeps clothing, remember he is really the only one in the whole pack, that can be looked at as being PM, without laughter bursting out at the seams. The day Harper holds a vote, on something that is condidence and it is denied, then you can say he governed that day, as if he had a majority, when he did not. Until then, Harper just governs for the majority of the people, otherwise things would not pass the votes.

Well as you asked if I am willing to build more jails etc., the answer is yes, without a doubt. I would like the jails though to be in the north hopfully where Polar bears roam out side of these places. It has been said that the polar bears food chain has be dying out, and maybe some of thse prisoners would like to take a chance on out running them. Actually most people in society are more then willing to build more jails for drug deallers and repeat violent offenders. So you are way out of step with that. You make conclusions that are just not true. We will gladly build onto existing jails and even build new ones if need be. Drug addiction is not an illness, that is only lawyer crap from stupid lawyers who do not have the ability to fight for their clients. They need to go back and learn the law and then maybe they will be able to folow it to defend people. If they can not do this in the law, it is then because they broke the law. People do that you know. Lock up any and all those who are caught dealling and 5-7 year minimum sentences for all crime that have guns used, even toy guns. Incase you have not looked that is what the people want, and we do not care anything for what lawyers have to say about this. That is why lawyers are hated so much. Also it is not the local police that go after the syndicates but the RCMP and Provincial police to some degree. There are huge numbers working on these cases 24/7. If we need more jails then we will have them built. We should not use the lack of space as an excuse to let people out in the public, who should not be there. It is really that simple. Why would we take your view and just let them back on the streets, to cause more trouble. The voters would rather the jails be built, but yes most will not want it near them, so build them away from people and build them big. We have a surplus when it comes to government money and if part of that surplus has to go to building jails that is fine. That being the case, it need not rasie taxes, now does it. As I said earlier, the local police do not investigate organised crime, so they will never be assigned to do it, other then in a support arrestting role. Are you sure you are a lawyer? The only person here getting whipped up it seems is you. You do not have to say every little thing when he explains his position. But as II have said many times, people will not mind having to build new jails, if it means that we can make our society a safer place. Drug deallers and violent offenders belong in jail and not for just a small period of time but many years of time. It is only your side (lawyers & crooks ) who can not see this. People will do what is necessary to do. Silly? No that is not silly, it is a reality, and yes we will have to come to that eventually. It will be far cheaper to run a jail of 30,000 then a smaller one. I would even say 50,000 would be a nice round number. It would be cheaper to run then the present system, and if placed away from any civilization, it will be secure. With the new technology we have today, it would be easier to control this place then most other jails. Survielence equipment can and should be used and even internal implants if necessary can keep the population controlled in such a way that it all can be done in a much cheaper way. I have been to prisons and yes I do know something about them and how they are secured. Right now overcrowding is an issue, but why do we think that each cell should be one man per cell or in provincial two man per cell. Hell this is jail man and the cells are really only for sleeping and resting. Big deal of there is only one toilet per cell, eveer live in a house with one bathroom and four women, now that is harsh. The people do not want to have this like a nice place to go holiday. It is suposed to he harsh, and if they start trouble there then solitary confinement. As I said Harper can hold a referendum on elected senate and once he gets his mandate from that he has the right and duty to proceed with it. Most provinces will agree readily to this. Those who will try to stop it will eventually have to give in. The trouble is that if this really took too long the people will be more apt to say abolish the senate completely. Either way it will be a long fight but as I said it is one Harper can start tomorrow if he wanted. The people in Canada have been polled and most have said they would play with the idea of senate reform. So that is a good driving force right there. PS to use the quote feature just copy the header line " " less quotesat the end of each section you want to post about . Start the new one with the pasting of the copied header line and repeat as necessary.

JD, I was not trying to make you a scape goat, and since as you say you posted both hours before my post, I will say sorry. But even after your post all your remarks were using the 36%, but again that is not even an issue. I was merely pointing out that people use the polls in the ways they see to benefit their own party's thinking. That is a formof manipulation. Just like the other week when I said that I believed the CPC probably are more in the 46-48% range, which was pushing the numbers towards my own party's vadvantage, you quickly responded that if those were the numbers, then they would have a very large majority, to rival most others. I did not take exception, but with things moving in the CPC favour I think that my numbers will be shown in the public polls by early December, if an elction is not call ed first. And yes I do think that Harper is using his political talents to see an election will happen soon. It will not be an open and telling way, but yes, he is wanting this to happen asap. If he goes into the spring, he will almost certainly get his majority. But I can see he is being impatient, and that is not his best side. I still support him and the policies, but yes, I can also see him overly anxiuos. That may cost him a tiny bit if he goes too far with it.

Ok, I assume you are now narrowing your post to things about the casualties in Afghanistan? Do people not understand that in a combat mission there are casualties and yes even death, and for a country to be in this kind of thing and only have 70 deaths or so, is really something of an accomplishment, not some statistic to be used for antiwar movement. Face it, there really is not any large scale anti-war movement here in Canada, and they will not sway many people one way or the other. At one time the people were more on the fence about Canada's role in Afghanistan, but it has become clearer to many that without our combat role, there is no rebuilding role that can be done there, until the areas become secure. It is like trying to build a house in a hurricane. If it was finished and done right it could provide shelter from that same hurricane, but you must first wait for the hurricane to stop before building it. On you post about more Canadians in more debt then before goes, .... well if you can not do simple math to know you can not afford things, then you should not complain when you go bankrupt. If there were things that you could not have seen happening, then yes there might be a small amount of sympathy. But not for what is your own fault. You control your own debt load.

You will see the playing with polls right here on our forums. JD has always in the past posted polls especially when it was against the CPC. Here now when polls find CPC in 40% territory you will notice he posts polls showing them still at 36%. That is propably just his own personal way to show he really is a liberal supportter, even to the tune where he will do his own poll selections for his own party interests. That is nothing new, but it does show that yes polls are being manipulated all the time. I still say that Harper and the CPC may also be using a kind of manipulation, to show them lower then their internal polls have them. Mostly because if the true story was shown before the speech debate, there would be absolutely no way the Liberals would have even hinted at bringing down the government. Which I do feel is something that Harper had wished for. But he did not get his wish and we go on from there. Even though the Liberals used to portray themselves as the natural governing party, it really has to make one wonder how anyone, who is thinking or following polictics at all, would support them, when they shoot themslves in the foot almost daily. The polls were stalled for some time because people were not folowing politics, and had other things that were more pressing in their minds. But with things being what they are lately, I think that more and more are taking a look and just can not compell themselves to think liberal anymore. I believe that is why the polls have being changing, and I think the liberal friendly media has done all it can to delay what seems inevitable, and show that the liberals are dying a slow death. I think that this migration away from them will first off benefit CPC, then the NDP and we may see a seat or two go green this time, but that in itself, makes me shutter, to think it has gone this far. It will not matter who is the next liberal leader, as he will have baggage and will not get things handed to him, but rather will have to build his own success from scratch, and that is something the Liberal party does not seem to have anyone who fits that, in the wings. Polls being what they will, I think that once the media has been weaned off the liberal tit, they will have to move to a more nuetral position and polls will then be more telling then they are today.

Just what do you think we should do with repeat offenders? Show them the love they never got? If people can not stop their urges to commit crimes, then they deserve to be put in jails. That is why we have these places, and yes we may have to build more of these, but that is just a fact of reality. You spout off and yet you do not even know just what Harpper has in mind when it comes to more prisons. He may well decide that the country needs a large super jail to be put in some remote area of the country, and he may well have it staffed winth in the present prison budgets. Have you seen or heard what he will say on this? Or are you just spouting off because Harpers plan is not what you would like? Again, where do you get your facts? Harper can easily put a referendum in any election call for a reformed and elected senate, and if it does go as most think, that would be a yes to reform and elected. That then gives huge power to have this done. I may be wrong but you I think are a Liberal, and like most Liberals you can not see any view but your own. Harper has been quite vocal about senate reform and the big difference is he will probably consult the people before making it a action, where liberal would just act on there own thoughts as being the will of the people, with never any consultations at all. Could the people simply want to chuck it completely? Maybe, but most polls say no, they say most would want senate reform, but there has been not enough to say just what reform is the choice of the people. Harper is at least trying to get a consensus for this. It is not that they require the senates, but rather the senates are there for a sober second thought on issues that could be rammed thru by majority governments, and they may wll be flawed in many ways. It is the job of the senate to eliminate this. Some provinces will look at this as an added expense and not go with having a senate. But if they pass a law that is in some way against the Charter of Rights, it may well take yeras for that to go thru all the courts and then come back on them. They could easily be ordered to pay the costs of these challenges as well. So yes, it is a gamble for those provinces who have gone without the second thought process. Is it better? Only time will tell. This just goes to show your own contempt for anything that is not in your view, as being mindless and not worthy of thought. Kind of makes for the same as those who say why do we need sober second thought, as we are right all the time.

Family day is a provincial holiday and the federal agencies etc will not be honouring it any ways. I do not like any days named after any people. It is not something we can ever be sure of it not coming back to haunt us in some way. The only way for days to be named after people should be only after they have been dead for at least 5 decades and no offending things have ever been found against them. Trudeau could well have many things lurking in his past, that could easily be taken out of contexts if a day were named in his honour. While he was a definite political character, the things he looked at as accomplishments may well be looked at as wrong headed at later times. I am sorry, but put a statue of him some where or even name a mountain or park after him. But do not ever name a holiday after him in any way shape or form.

Naw, we will just put all the pedophiles and wife beaters in to regular prison population, that way it will free up spaces

It will be Feb 30th.

More garbage. Trudeau was paid to do the job and he took that money except for a ver small time where he did so for only a dollar, at his own choosing. He also took the big fat pension and all the other perks of government, and I will not begrudge these, but then again I will not memorialize him for doing so either. That is just hog wash. Trudeau made his own legacy before leaving politics and that is all I am ever going to give in to.

Status Quo is a dream that the Liberals can only dream about and never happen. Their party is in shambles, their leader now has no qualities at all, that would allow him to do anything but tank the party in an election. The public is seeing all this and it is just a moment away from saying it is hopeless for the Liberals. Just think about how a public debate would be with Dion as leader It would not even be fair in any way. Dion just can not compete with the rest. I think even Elizabeth May would be better at debate then Dion, and I do not hold her in much asteam either. Either way the Liberals slice it, their party is going to take huge losses of seats, along with the BLOC. That is a best case scenario. The facts are even worse then that. Hell even now the press is starting to outwardly show their contempt for Dion. They were laughing at his speech about his support of the throne speech, long before the others did. They simply blocked him out like some annoying buzz in the back ground and got on with writing their stories. That has been stated already in the news papers and other postings. So the Status Quo???!!! Not very likely and that would be a huge win for Dion if he could really do that.

People keep bringing up the fact that this is a minority government and there fore should consult with all the other parties and get their input. But if we let that happen nothing would ever be done. harper has the right approach, and that is to introduce his bills as designed by his government and then see where there would be support ot not. It does seem that he has been able to find support for pretty all he has wanted to do, but then the Senate and committee's took way too long to pass the things. Harper not being stupid, then decided to get twice the bang for the effort, and perlouged parliament, ending this stalling, and then in the new throne speech said he is reintroducing these same bills as on large bill and he will not allow any changes or stalling their passage. This will again give him the bump for being tough on crime and also, a shot right back at the opposition for not having passed all the hurdles before. He now looks like not only is he tough on crime but he is also saying if you do not do this then we go to the polls. If he has to do this, it will not cost him any political points and will cost all the opposition lots. He has effectively got points twice for the same bills and also political points for having it look like he has to drag the oppositions to pass it. Even though all said they will give it fast track, Harper get all the points. Nice play Harper!! If the opposition wants to try and out plan Harper, then they better start using their heads. It looks like all these plans started out months ago, and were setup in a way that the opposition just tallked their way into corners, by demanding things that they knew would never have been granted. So now Harper is looking pretty and can call the election at any time and not have to worry about voters holding it against him. He will be passing only things that would be suicide for oppositions to vote against, and so he will make his government work, and deliver budgets with tax breaks and lost of other goodies, and the opposition can not stop him. When Harper feels he has enough support, he will poison pill an issue and an election will be called. Harper id the sheep dog in all of this and the opposition are the sheep. It is funny that they just do not know it yet.

The Bloc is trying to set up an issue that will make the voters in Quebec once again think they are being hard done by. This kind of issue would only force more companies to move their head offices to other provinces, and there would be the rub Duecppe would use to inflame strong separtist feelings, once again. He needs this to keep his party to be able to be seen as necessary to the people of Quebec. He is not dumb by any means but he is also not as good as Harper in laying the ground work to get change in the minds and souls of the voters. If the Bloc does badly in any forth coming election, I can see where Duceppe would exit the party, before it goes right down the tubes. I think that is why he is now digging to find a new vein of discontent to make use of, for his own purposes. I do not think he will find, any real strong position that will do it for him. If Harper can for the next couple years keep things in Quebec at a peaceful level, the Bloc will be mostly a fringe party.

Hell if a 28 year old is going after a 14 year old, there should not have been the need to hire a contractor. Society should have been able to have handled it within the law, and if that was not being done, then outside of the law would have been quick and definitive. The problems I have with people at this young age, are that hormones do act and play a very big part in all of this. Yes we need to protect them, even though they think of themselves as being all knowing and in control of their minds and bodies. The AOC being brought to 16 is one small part of this and it also needs for people to also make it so anyone breaking this or preying on these young people, should be made social outcasts. the people and the neighbourhood can play a major roll in this as well, and I would like to see much more of this being done.

If Harper can not get the crime bill thru all the hoops, then he can call an election himself. Saying the government can not work and using the crime bill that almost everyone wants pass as the reason. There would be very little flack back at him for doing this and it would catch the liberals with their collective pants down. It will also be a good time to include a referendum on triple E senate, and that may well be done along with this vote. It could easily be a double play for Harper. So I do nto think that the liberals will play any games in this as they will lose too much. I think the crime bills will go thru fast, just because it is something they all can not be seen being against.

The amount of money that we have spent in Afghanistan, is not really all that much, when you consider that much of this comes from the foreign aid budgets. When we first were there, the soldiers built schools by day and Taliban burned them by night. The combat role has allowed many other areas to continue the rebuilding phase in all of this.But the fact that much of the roads in the combat zone are nothing more then trails and distances to most larger populations are much like Canada, pretty far between. The cost of the panel would not be a lot of money and yes, it may well say to extend the combat mission, or maybe it will say that since the USA is pulling 100,000 troops out of Iraq by next fall, that some kind of rotation should be taken, but again speculation. Harper was wise to pick a panel to do this and yes Manley was a good choice as well. It was not done to be spiteful but rather to be cunning. That is what sticks in most liberals craw. They wish they had thought of it.