Guthrie

well, I do know exactly what you're doing --- you're trapped in an untennable position and you are trying to cute your way out with a line of bullroar and a smiley sorry, your pigs don't fly - not in American air space

Hmmm...why is it that you eat that kind of propaganda up in this case, but not......let's say, for the INVASION OF GRANADA to save poor imperiled medical students! How would this help Arar when it was the US that deported him to Syria? sorry, I'm going to have to demand you produce my quotes on Granada

Shrub's swagger is sticking out on this one. If China get's moderately good at targetting and taking out satellites, they may be able to take away America's advantage of holding the high ground in a war --- there is good reason to have concern -- but as you note - really, it's just the hubris of the rightwing revolution coming back to bite us on the ass

no myth, historical fact -- welcome to America http://www.history.navy.mil/wars/foabroad.htm

Nonsense...the USA is not and has never been the fantasy bastion of human rights lamented as only missing over the past six years. From slavery to capital punishment, who the hell would give Arar even Top 100 billing for most abused? I was trained to go a lot longer than 52 weeks for Uncle Sam. Maybe Arar could have fallen back on his training had he completed Syrian service. What is a Canadian bible? "fantasy bastion of human rights" --- do you have to make up a premise I never posed in order to debate this? The US has, on a very large number of occasions, pulled it's citizens out of foreign difficulties - check your history. There was a time when a good defense against arrest in a foreign country was to simply say, 'I'm an American citizen and you can't do this to me'

Karl Rove is a member of the Ku Klux Klan, when did this happen??? get over yourself Link

if you think rich kids have the same experience at ivy league schools as poor kids, you're the joke

US elections don't give a damn about the long run. In 2004, yes and no votes played a role in campaigns and outcomes. BTW, our "hero" and vociferous "NO" voter Cynthia McKinney is no longer in Congress, soundly defeated in 2006 during the Democratic primary. It was her second congressional defeat. Seems her district had no difficulty voting "NO". Cynthia McKinney was the target of KKKarl Rove's gang of dirt merchants. Nor did her defeat represent, 'the long run.' as for US elections, you'll have to defend that post, because there are, IMO, very definite, 'long term' trends affecting American politics, so said Abe Lincoln - and I submit, his wisdom in the matter still stands up, even in the world of blipverts and blackberries

The name, "Harvard," ought to impress you. Had you ever attended it, even for a short while, it definitely would impress you. but no, you shouldn't be impressed by spoiled rich frat boys who are given a complimentary MBA after their name in appreciation of daddy's money and access to power

Maybe...maybe not. Why did the US need Jordan as an intermediary? Rendition and special rendition are the same side of a netherworld coin. Legally, tortured for a year is no worse than tortured for a week, except for drama points. He is not the first or last person to be snagged by ham fisted governments. Krikey, at least he is still alive. The US government doesn't do back-flips for its own citizens, let alone a suspected Al Qaeda perp from Syria/Canada. The US Govt had a very long history of doing, 'back-flips for its own citizens.' The loss of that attitude is part of what has diminished America. and that, 'legalese,' about length of torture is simply not true - perhaps if you spent a week in hell and told you could get out OR you would definitely get recompense if you could stick it out for another 51 weeks, well, I won't believe you would go for plan 'B' - even if you swear on a Canadian bible

I disagree with this position. Iraq did not deteriorate into anything. That strife was there and the second largest motivating factor in all the violence that occurred in Iraq from the night of, 'shock and awe,' forward. no, in the long run, there was never any possibility for a, 'pat on the back for voting "Yes".'

oh, and this... does anybody (other than me) see the irony here????

Let's get something straight right here. Arar was never, 'deported,' he was sent, by a secret policy called, 'extraordinary rendition,' in a secret CIA plane, to a torture session at the hands of professional torturers who seek to curry favor with the CIA. When he was finally released from US custody, it was to Canada, not Syria. The entire time he was being tortured, he was officially a suspect being held by the US Department of Justice.

That's right, it was the wrong thing to do. I don't think those Dems realized, however, what a horrendous mess it was going to be. and like I said politicians are ruled and spun and manipulated around that central tenet - vote your district - were they not, protest movements would have much less power than they do - to get public attention focussed on an issue, to win popular support, is to make the puppets dance

Agreed...Leahy was grandstanding. The US is not a "beacon" for human rights for krissakes. Arar got hosed by the Canadians, Americans, Jordanians, and Syrians. Maybe next time he will pay the extra fare for a direct flight to Montreal. There was a wiki entry concerning Arar's flight from manadtory military service in Syria. That probably didn't help either. Mr. Arar does not have a right to US air space. John Lennon was prevented access for far less. and you can defend this attack on the man, how???? grandstanding? considering the seriousness of the crimes committed against Arar, I'm a little disappointed he didn't go over and slap Gonzalez on the face -- of course, THAT, might have been grandstanding.

I have a Timex...... that is not a doomsday clock so much as a doomed clock -- worst damned watches ever to be successfully peddled

I disagree my brother. Their political support was all Bush needed. He didn't want their advice, just their votes. They could have said no and faced the challenge of being called "unpatriotic" rather than signing onto the needless waste on hundreds of thousands of lives .. many of the women and children, and thousands of them being American. They could have shown courage. They could have stood with those who did not support Bush. They could have legislated as if they were a real opposition party. But they didn't do any of that. They dropped their pants and bent over for right-wing talk radio. The Democratic Party villified and marginalized the left on Iraq. They put Kuchinch in a box, shut Howard Dean up, and worked to get rid of Cynthia Mckinney. There was a massive antiwar protest in D.C. last year where 300,000 people showed up to protest the war. You know how many democrats showed up to speak after many were scheduled? .. Cynthia McKinney. That's it. The Congressional Black Caucus was holding its annual conference right down the street at the same time. You know how many of them showed up? .. Cynthia McKinney. That's it, even though they've been against the war, and African-Americans, who sent these people to office, are the most antiwar demographic in America .. only one of them had the courage to show up. ..Why? .. Because Barney Frank, a democrat, representing AIPAC, told them not to go. The Democratic Party could have done a hell of a lot more against this war than they did, but fear of being called names and losing campaign contributions kept them from it. Now they're all running back this way .. claiming that they've been here all along. I'd like to interject here, when that Iraq adventure was being first peddled, it was still very close to 9/11 - America had taken and held a circled wagons attitude. Politicians, especially members of the House, have one universal motivation, 'Vote YOUR District.' To stand up for what was right would have been political suicide for a large number of them... and then there was the soothing reassurences of the POTUS that every diplomatic avenue would be pursued before choosing the military option. It was a lie and a lot of people saw through it but for those waffling politicians it looked like a life saver - they were, finally, wrong about that last part.

yes, junta can be defined as a military group who seize power or fill a power gap during a government transition -- and commonly, a junta is pictured as a group of cigar smoking Fidel Castro types --- and certainly, that image is one that like (in my own thinking) to associate with Bush and his gang - even though, according to one definition they don't fit the bill yes, you should - I especially recommend Stephen Hawking's recent comment: "As scientists, we understand the dangers of nuclear weapons and their devastating effects, and we are learning how human activities and technologies are affecting climate systems in ways that may forever change life on Earth. As citizens of the world, we have a duty to alert the public to the unnecessary risks that we live with every day, and to the perils we foresee if governments and societies do not take action now to render nuclear weapons obsolete and to prevent further climate change." - SJH

how so? I agree with him. The democrats won the 2006 election by default, not by example of their leadership. Nearly all the prowar democrats are on the run, with the exception of Edwards who was smart enough to face reality and apologize for his vote. Clinton's star has fallen quite a bit and there are a lot of democratic voters who can't stand the idea of her as president, I being one of them. Confidence in the democrats is only slightly higher than that for the republicans and many have a wait and see attitude about the democratic Congress. They've flip-flopped on the impeachment of Bush, even John Conyers, for christs sake, who spent 2 years building a case. Many don't trust Pelosi as far as they can throw her. The number of people who identify themselves as democrats hasn't fallen as fast as it has for the republicans, but it has fallen. This loss of confidence and respect for democrats comes not only because of their cowardice on the Iraq war, but their cowardice throughout all of the Bush years. good observations - and it is, IMO, good that the former pro-war politicians are running for cover - but the Iraq war paints ALL Republicans with the association to Bush -- Democrats are not, as a group, tagged for the Iraq quagmire -- I mean, I believe there is a discernable difference and were there not, Republicans would likely rally round their man - and point at Dems as hypocrites --- and get away with it

maybe for the Canadians who aren't in Canada - or maybe for the Americans or maybe, just because it's the right thing to do 'First they came for the Canadians ...'

how so?

yes, as I thought

nice reponse from a guy who cried and whined and bitched about being called a clown I notice, you quoted my post but never actually referred to it. What do they call that again???

It's getting just severely boring and I don't know how much time I'll waste on your stuff. that boycott gasoline idea is lame in the extreme - it simply is not possible - more to the point, if it were possible, it would be a fait accompli - anyone who presently can avoid buying gasoline, is avoiding such purchases and likely will continue on in that direction from now on - that said, if enough people were following your boycotting gasoline scheme, to make a difference to oil companies, those oil companies would be getting ready to close their doors "Yes, to show you're inability to grasp current event's and recent history." sorry, that kind of quote attribute has nothing wrong with it --- in 1999 Cheney said that, currently he is VP -- no, it doesn't matter what he was in 1999 - your corrective action is misplaced - "Excuse me for asking you to back up you're rediculous claim's, like the one about China attacking Vietnam during the Vietnam War." except I never said that - and as I remarked earlier, I will not let your misrepresentations of my posts go unchallenged here's what I really said: note, after America left, means after the war and NOT as you suggest, during finally, I don't believe, not for a second your claim about the name calling --- I'd like to suggest rather, the word comes to your mind every time you look in the mirror .... "sphincterboy" .... well, that's my best guess

I wonder what your opinion would be had it been you hauled off to be tortured in Syria.