KrustyKidd

Bush won a war. Probably will win the peace. However, I would like to see Powell run, but he won't do it. If I was a Democrat, I would want a leader period.

DANG, MIGHT WANT TO STRAIGHTEN OUT YOUR VERSION WITH THESE GUYS BEFORE YOU GO INTO PUBLICATION LONIUS

No Sir, if you search back far enough you will find me saying that if Iraq was on the shore of Antartica that we wouldn'tve cared and Saddam would still be in power. Nice try though. The counter argument I have always had is that we did not go to Iraq for oil. And we didn't. Oil is in the region, it provides an international backdrop for the political unrest that terrorism draws on to gain undue importance. Terrorism gains momentum by pointing out the vast differencials between have's and have nots. If we wanted stability then we wuld simply drain our own resources and let them starve, terrorism would not go away though, it would build and soon go nuclear. We went there to stop terrorism by attempting to install a freely elected government in a country that has a lot of natural resources. Enough to pay for it's own hasty building into a form which we hope will be good to it's people and give them purpose and hope for the future. A future that will provide an example for the poor and destitute of the region to show that terrorism is not the only door out. As a side benifit, the stable flow of oil (which is benificial to all mankind) is ensured. You wish me to list the five or six reasons why I believe that the US went into Iraq again? There are many countries that have one or more of those reasons but none have all of them all lined up in a row in such a timely maner as Iraq did.

Exactly! Do you find something casually unimportant about that? Is there something that you have found to replace the basis for the world's economy? I'm quite sure that none of Iraq's oil is even bound for the US but rather France, Germany and whatever. As you said, the stability is the key. What would China do if oil doubled in price overnight? Might they do something unperedictable? What would people in the ME do if it was priced so high nobody was buying it from there but rather other sources? Beleive it or not, one of OPEC's tasks is to keep the flow and price stable so that other sources are not looked at. It is how they stay in business. How would they provide for themselves? What would they do if the world cut down use and started using their own resources instead? It is far more to the advantage of other countries than the US that oil stability is maintained. unlike the US, many countries have no oil to drill, unlike many countries, those in the ME have no other source of income or product to sell in order to feed themselves. No Riff, the world will explode if oil goes out of reach for the average person. The US would be the least hit after Japan and Europe. As I stated before, the US would hurt but other economies would be dead, including all those in the ME. It is far more than simple economics at work, there is a whole planet of 6 Billin that depend on oil for day to day things. If there is anythng more stable than a bunch of Royal idiots then I am sure the US would jump on it as would every other person who has to deal with these pompus users.

Prove it.

That's OK. The figures you gave are probably good and I don't argue with them. I do wish to point out that OPEC is not made up of Arabic countries only. For example, much of America's oil comes from Venuzeuela which is also OPEC. Other than that, the only other point I wish to make is that Iraq is only part of the world picture. Most orders so far are bound for Europe as the US has it's sources already in place for years to come. One other thing; you said Iraq War II, this was actually a legal continuation of the first Gulf War. Iraq did not comply with the ceasefire agreement which it was bound to. It was to have ceased all WMD production, research and development as well as possess none. A fact which Hans Blix verified as late as 27 Jan 2003. In all these resolutions the US as one of the 'Member Nations' assisting Kuwait was given permission to act on it's opwn or in concert without the UN. 686 686 678 687 Seems that this all adds up to a cease fire that was broken by Iraq. Or should I say, never fullly complied with. Therefore, member states cooperating with the government of Kuwait, acting under res 678 para2 "all subsequent resolutions" can simply resume military action.

Right on Spike! Go get 'em! The UN leads the way, yet again! Actually, thinking abouit, when was the last? Nothing will be done about NK until the US gets involved, you know it, I know it, and when they do, they will be blamed for it. BTW, oil? Is that why the US went to Iraq? When will they recoup the cash layout? When will they see the profit from the $500 billion they will spend in total? Come on, you are saying it was the reason are you not, you must have facts right?

OMG! Should we all saddle up and move to the NK border now? Canada at the lead or France? Are you outraged enough to do something about it for nothing? Only the saving of lives or will you later complain that the US had some money reason that played in with this and made it a bad thing to do? Kim is contained, he hasn't hurt anybody in years. Why are you so ready to go to war for rice? Why won't you give a few more years for inspections and diplomacy to work.

You won't see any. Facts are for those who can back up an argument. Allegations are all some have to fight with and thus, have to be spread in as many directions as possible. If you will note Righturn, it is very easy to put a hole in a thinly spread rumor.

The Michael Moore Rant Room is down the hall, to the left. This here is the Maple Leaf Political Discussion Forum.

$500 billion worth of oil? Break this one down for me so it makes sense to invade please.

Very good sparring Lonius. You play with words and not the ideas though. I smell a simple trap here. Yes. Look at the elite there and here. There, they have power over the people that is far beyond economic. It is a chaste system, only those born to royalty are permitted to do certain things and have real control. A commoner may not advance beyond certain points. Here, the elite have much power as well, but any person can become part of the elite if they are lucky, hardworking and intelligent. Of course not. I am very much for opportunity. Opportunity that is forever beyond the reach of those in countries of the ME. How did Britain do it? It is not communist, it is a democracy with a Royal figurehead. And now, they are through with that method and are trying to take the time to do it right and allow the people to decide what they want.

Lonius Thank you for acknowleging the vote will be fair. That was my whole point. As for being a one party country, this is what we are all hoping will change once they have their constitution written. And of course the President will be Islamic, just like here we have only Christians. Although like here, there are no 'official' reasons why a Hari Krishna cannot be PM or President of the US. No. I do believe that once a religious leader uses his pol=sition to influence church and state he is a dictator. The Pope is a dictator, of the Vatican. I have to keep a sense of humor. Things are going very well compared to what many feared and most expected. It is far closere to end game than many think. Very good point. History is against not only the US, but the world. That is what is exciting about all this though, something new is being tried. Isn't it obvious how the ME has fallen behind the industrial world in caring for theri people? They have more than enough resources to do it yet they don't. You might ask why it is our business but isn't the answer obvious? They supply us volutarily with the thing we need. A thing the ruling class keep to themselves while their people starve and live in poverty. Seeing the light is allowing people to make up their own mind. Check out the Gallup polls of Iraqis. Very few of them want a cleric to run the show.

Lonius Uh oh, here we go again Lonius. Same argument but this time you are trying to crawl in through the kitchen window. In the past, many people worshipped because of a variety of factors; poverty, hopelessness and having no choice in their lives. Scince then, they have, thanks to industry and such, in a way 'empowered.' Ever notice how the most destitute nations believe in God more than those who have more? Of course it is. All man's cruelty and anger are contained in this sum up. It has been, is, and will be the final battle. Enough agreeing with you for today. Onto other things... Elder I think you are on the wrong track here. It is not a taught thing or a forced issue but rather a proggressive evolution of man. As a recent example, we have Iraq and the US. One evil and the other not so evil. Make the evil place not so bad and we are one step closer to being there. Imagine if the whole world was working. Had a job and security. Didn't have to worry about being tortured or being terrorised. A world with simple problems like cancer, why I have only two large screen TVs and Bill Gates has twenty. To carry it one step closer, what if there were so many public things like parks, transport, entertainment that were cheaply available, what would be the sense in having money? Watch Star Trek sometime, I used to when I was younger. I remember these people running abround the stars having adventures and whatever but never remembered anybody ever bitching about being short changed on their paycheck. Sure they had rank and privilages but it seemed more like a communist thing that actually worked. To get to that stage I would imagine you would have to have incentive of some sort. Otherwise it would be the adventures of a group of starving farmers in a potato commune. Spud Trek? Pellaken Exactly. While most of the world is hard put trying to add 2 and 2, can't read anything more than basic stuff and don't even know their own country's geography, God is sending us 'encoded messages' that only a few 'enlightened' humans can interpret? If I was a God who wanted things to be known far and wide, I would 'imbed' the message in the human instinct rather than make an ambiguous instruction book. A book that was so importent, yet could and would be interpreted diferently by each one of the six Billion beings I created and send them arguing about it's intent. Futhermore, I intend on judging these beings in a much more severe way than any court of law on how well they adhere to instructions that I have not made clear. Oh, just in case there are some who think they know what I meant, I contadict rules so many times in the Books that it is not even funny. Duh. Pretty much sums up my belief system. You been reading my mail?

I have read that over 70% has been inspected. Of course, that is merely a statistic. If 100% gets inspected, and no WMDs found, the numbers could change to "We inspected only 25% below 10m so far". It depends on whether you believe a devout religious leader is a dictator and if Islam is oppressive. Well then, I ask you to prove that 70% has been inspected. As for predicting what they are going to say, you and your ilk have predicted 'quagmire,' ' Vietnam' and more. As for Dictator and whatever, the only thing that the US is going to do is allow a free election. You and I have talked about that. There is no way that a strong minority is going to hijack this country. Whatever the people choose is what will be. However, all people are going to have their vote, educated, empowered, the knowlege that they are the one doing the voting and free of threat. Think about it for a moment, if they choose a dictator, then I guess they really wanted that, if they want a Cleric, then that is the way it is going to be. What is the US going to do in that case? Reinvade? Say the results are null and void? What? BTW, most are leaning towards a Democracy anyhow according to the Gallup Polls. However, all that we want, (the World) is a fair vote. You have proof that this is not going to happen? Bring it forth Lonius, otherwise submit to common sense and facts. Prove to me the lies, prove to me the nefarious plans and schemes to undercut and decieve. You tried Colonialism, Oil, re-election and crap everywhere, none supported and still continue. Does it ever enter your mind that because you can't support it that maybe it is not the truth? In turn, you ask that I, with proof, conceede to your position, whithout proof. You are just talking out of your butt because you're miffed that things are going so well. Admit it, you want it to fail because you have been so wrong about everything so far. You feel that there has to be something to vindicate your anti American feelings and you grasp at any straw that might hold water. Do you see me making idiotic counter claims like, 'The UN is going to give every Iraqi one million dollars' in order to make this work. ' No, because reality is what reality is. Try and keep this in the realm of what we know and what has happened. The US is stabilising a country so that free elections are going to happen. That's it. Like I said before, pick up a paper sometime, you are missing some interesting events that have happened in the last year or so. When you're done, give it to Riff, he can use it for kitty litter or something as I know he doesn't read them.

First Riff, you are using WMD as your main support for all arguments. Like I said, when you get tired of losing on one thread you come to another with the same argument and post it as fact when it is only a suspician of yours. Riff KK Also, we know that two thirds of Iraq has not been inspected yet. How do you know they are not there? Riff again Where are thery Riff? Where, when, how and by whom were they destroyed? What intelligenced do you have that proves that they have not been hidden somewhere? I have a refreashingly new question for you and the Left. if they found a dump full of Chemical laden artillery shells tommorow in Iraq, would that mean that you will break out a US flagand start cheering? When Iraq holds free elections and a president is elected and is not a US puppet. Will you cheer the US action for ousting Saddam? I guess it comes down to this; are you against Bush's reason for war, or the war itself? If Bush, will you be all for it in four years from now and if it's the war, are you hoping that a dictator will sieze control of the country once the US is gone and put the people under oppression again?

Lonius, you are missing both a good argument and a lot of current events. A declaration or War was given - iin 1991. Resolution 687 was the conditions of the ceasefire agreement. I didn't say that Adolf Hitler bombed the WTC Lonius, I said that Kay has said that for good reason he thinks that WMD have been moved to Syria,. That is not a conspiracy theory but, a rational possibility.

It is impossible. That's why it is foolhardy to try and do it. It's like running on a platform of eliminating prostitution. You say you are against it and actively work making policies that will start bringing it unter some form of control.

Intelligent Leftists understand this. However, they show in their weak arguments and unrealistic expectations that they simply complain for the sake of complaining. I will be the first to admit that things could have gone better, even without hindsight. Yet, instead of discussing these points and becomming a better nation with a more postive effect on the world, we and the Administration have a full time job making things work and refuting these stupid points. Ever notice that we have the same effective counter arguments WITH PROOF to the same tired mealy mouthed garbage that is thrown out by Leftists? Ever notice that the Right always has the last word on these threads? Then ever notice how a week, month or whatever the same ineffective argument appears again, by the same Leftists? The discussions are merely a repeat, it's the same in the States. Wonder why the Democrats are going to lose? Easy, not because they are wrong or weak, only that they havn't come up with anything new. Their whole plan is to discredit the Bush Admin. Meanwhile, look what Bush is doing, he makes silly laws to attract minorities, he knows he has the right already. He just reaches out and steals potential Democratic voters away. Meanwhile, the Left keeps on harping on about the same tired crap, "Wheres the WMD?" I guess they don't get papers where they are. Otherwise they would know what is contained in res 687,1441, Kays, Blix's report and how Syria is a very suspicious possibility. The further ridiculousness is that Bush cannot be touched. He legally invaded Iraq under the afore mentioned resolutions. Ever wonder why, Rockerfeller, with all the inside intelligence of the CIA and a well publisized mission to undermine Bush, has not turned up a damm thing? Instead, he barely escaped charges of being a traitor and holding onto his position as Vice Chief of the Senate Intelligence Sub Committee. It's because he did it legally, not dishonestly. I'm sure that this para will echo the sentiments of a lot of us. I , for one am getting increasingly good at cutting and pasting previously posted counter evidence/logic/proof/links in order to refute the same stupid points that didn't work for the leftists beofe. It's a cycle of redundency. If you find that you cannot bring something new to the discussion, know that it didn't work before, why try it again with the same eveidence? Furthermore, if it didn't work, you have no argument, and are presented with all sorts of proof to counter your points, why not attack it with something new, and lacking that, figure out you might be wrong and think about that possiblity?

Well, as you get old, put yourself in the middle of an international event. Then die, for sure you will have media attention. Just as an example Pel, take a forklift operator, as he does his job in the industrial area of Missisauga a fellow worker suffers a heart attack. Forklift operator gives mouth to mouth whatever and saves his life. No notice in the paper. Big deal. Now, take the same forklift operator, he is unloading a Herc in Kabul. A terrorist attack occurs and he carries his comarade to safety under fire. Saves his life. Gets a medal and gets to drool over Adrianne as she 'pins' him. Not much to it. LOL, as a former Airborne NCO I should be jealous that these guys are getting the 'glory?' I drive a truck now, those days of all the media attention I got as I blasted my way around the globe are gone. No more rubbing shoulders with the elite of the planet, no more chicks and soirees with Juanta and Commie pinkos. All behind me now.

LOL, you made me laugh Pell. What you say is true enough for sure. Like the Academy Awards and all, publicity for thosee in public as they slap each other on the back. 'I laughed, i cried, it made me dream' LOL. What about awards for the fastest 53 foot trailer loaded? Best supporting mechanic? Most consistantly on time secretary? The average Joe and Jane get left behind every time. In all fairness though, in peacetime the death of a soldier is hardly mentioned. When some guy gets run over by a truck on exercise in Shilo you don't hear about it. Now if a terrorist blows up a forklift driver in Flin Flon it would sure be front page news. It's not the vocation, but the circumstances. The Operation in Afganistan is a Canadian presentation to the world. We are sending our own to confront terrorism. It is very interesting to the public. It instills a sense of pride and a feeling that we are a country doing their part for freedom etc. Along with this feeling goes the want of the public to 'take care of our own' like the US does and all. Hence, it is no surprise that we would put this stuff on the front page. We have short memories though. Each death of our own is a price that we have paid in this fight. It is the duty of all of us who care not to let the memory of the fallen to pass into the obliviation of apathy.

Interesting point. Curfews are a well known thing in times of war. These people are not idiots who take armies casually. A curfew means that, a restriciton to be taken seriously. Why would they be out and about save for dishonest reasons? An innocent person would more than likely stay indoors.

To tired to argue with you Riff, instead, I'll just give you an assignment. I know we have discussed these before so I'll let you make the case this time. So you are saying that Saddm's pathetic army could not fight a smaller, more pathetic army say, from Syria, Kuwait or Jordan? So many people, including Chirac, Clinton, Rockerfeller and more agreed that he had them. Blix could not account for them and Saddam never came forth with any indication of what had happened to his WMDs, what proof did you have that they were not there? Was Saddam able to end the sanctions? Why did he not? Why not? Did he find religion? How do you know that he had given up his quest for power? Are you say8ing that having all sorts of military ready to pounce on him was not the main factor in a peaceful Saddam? Watching what Riff? Kay did not justify the war, he merely said that his findings indicate that Iraq had tremendous WMD capabilities. Why does that not make you wary of intent and capabilities when they were supposed to have none? Why do you think that Saddam's personal ATM and brothrel was a 'soveriegn nation?' Were the citizens of Iraq free to do what they wanted? Did they have a voice to address their desires, dreams and the freedom to implement them? Or were they simply prisoners of Saddam's wishes? And why do you think there was only ONE reason? There was at least five of them? OK, explain the power grab please. Who and how is it implemented and kept? Oil bath? Show us how the US is taking oil from Iraq and how long it is going to take to have their money invested in this venture to be repaid if they are grabbing oil. Neo Con Party. Explain please.

Once again, we bury our dead. MEMORIAL SERVICE He placed himself in harms way to enable others to be free. He joins the thousands before him that shall ever be young, strong and brave in our memories. He leaves behind the tears, shattered dreams but brings home the world of war to my hometown once again. We are not alone in this war on terror, the three soldiers lost to the dogs of terror, sons of our country and Knights for Peace are in good company with the brave souls from our southern nieghbors. So far, their two rotations of a hundred fifty thousand have produced the same casualty rate as our one rotation of two thousand. The fight against terror has cost the lives of five hundred of theirs and three of ours. In our sorrow, we must remember that we are not alone, We do not have a monopoly on sacrifice or sorrow, we are the same, we are right. Unless confronted, terror will win. Unless people are enabled to decide for themselves, terror will win. Unless we understand and remember that there are over five hundred of Jamie's fellow soldiers comming home like him, we cannot understand the problem. Jamie did not die so that we could gt cheaper gas. He did not die to get Bush re elected. He did not die for America to carry out colonisation. He died so that we would not have to die in a terrorist bombing in downtown Ottawa. He died so that Afganistan could become free. He died so that the people of that country could have a chance at a relatively normal life. He died so that their life would become hopeful enough to make strapping a bomb to their torso a crazy notion. God bless him. God have mercy on his family and give them the strength the courage to somehow put this behind them.

You're right Riff, it reads bad. Thanks for pointing it out. It was connected to the city/rural thing you were on about. Riff Most crime happens per capita in the urban centers. The ones that are "more social accepting" than the primitive urban settings. So the twenty percent of the people that live in cities make up the reason why America is primitive? They are after all the ones commiting most of the crime. Yes, the minorities are more violent, yes the white rural areas are less. You are going to blame this on the minorities in the States? Therefore the real Americans that make up 80% are the progressive ones. To take this argument a bit further, let's eliminate the cities of both ours and their country altogether. Now it would seem that they are more peaceful than us. I have no stats but this comparison would be interesting would it not?