KrustyKidd

Ceausescu was Howdy Doody with a noodle whip compared to Saddam. Your argument is gargbage. SADDAM 1 SADDAM 2 SADDAM 3 CEAUSECU Wow, that Ceausescu is a hard dictatror, he fires his guys leaving them to voice quiet dissent. No wonder there was enough dissent within the military to take the opportunity to side with the people in the revolt in '89. Uf they tried that in Iraq, Saddam would whack whole Battalions just to be safe. No Black Dog, no comparrison. As a foot note, Saddam Sought Power, Ceausescu sought money. Black Dog, I have held your intellectual attention fairly well so I assume that you know that I am not the village idiot. I don't buy rhetoric but rather investigate things best I can. I conceede points and even arguments when given information countering them that is irrefutable. I hope you know that from our discussions. I don't think it a sign of weakness but rather intelligence. I will come somewhat clean with you here and tell yu that no, I do not believe everything I read and read a lot, Chomsky, Moore, Hanitty, Savage, included. All of them while I'm waiting for something as they are .... all very one sided and can only be taken in small doses. War and occupation are usually accompanied by rhetoric yes, but the stakes are high here. Very high. No, it was not done for oil, no, it was not done to promote US Hegemony, no, it was not done to safe guard WMD, no, it was not done to dispose Saddam and no, it was not done to free the Iraqi people. That is brain candy for idiots. There is a theological struggle happening here between people that are fairly free and people that are not. Of course, the ones that are somewhat free are the west and the ones that are not are the Middle Eastern Militents with the potential pool of millions of recruits trapped and waiting to see which way the wind blows. They are not free for various reasons, history, former French, Russian, German, US and Chinese aspirations of hegemony in which the US is better at than the rest, the oppressive nature of political systems in that region which rely on fear and disreguard for human right as well as the ferverent Religious beliefs that dictate daily life from dawn to the following dawn. Add it all together and money is not the reason, rather survival of the human race. What do yu think the US would do if Al Queda gets hold of Pakistan's Nukes? What would Russia do if one of them were pointed or fired at them? Econonomic societies need peace to flourish, nuclear war or at best, instability does nothing to empower that. I don't make any grand moral case for the USA, rather, the whole western world and in turn the Middle Eastern World are on a collision course born of theology, ancient and modern governmental systems and a mutual misunderstanding of each other. That was fine twenty years ago, now, with the weapons available to the east, nobody can afford a mistep and believe me, I sleep good with GW on the switch moreso than I would with Osama.

Watch out BD, you are actually starting to make sense here. I know when the Somalia affair came down that that is what happened there. OMG! What is going on here? Another one! In this case particularily this is being done as thes realizes that not only must it be beyond reproach, but make ever effort to appear to be beyond reproach. This is why they will get to the bottom and top of this and find out why this happened. Given the stakes, I don't think the usual Mai LAi and Somalia will take place. Too much to lose. This here is yet another illustration of why I think the US is changing their ways in the world. The old ones no longer work. Now, what do I think really happened? Simple. Senior Officers get given orders to keep prisoners on their toes and not to harm them. Junior Officers get orders to do what it takes to ensure same and then are told to cooperate with interigators who want them stressed out as much as possible. Senior NCOs get order to stress out prisoners and keep them that way, Junior Officers leave running of day to day activity to NCOs and write reports while NCOs experienced in prison work take their experience and knowlege for granted and don't supervise the juniors properly figuring they know what to do as it is common knowlege. Over the period of months, this form of activity becomes more normal and accepted. 'Desensitizing' might be a good word here. The whole thing becomes normal to eveybody and guards forget that prisoners are actually human and also forget that they are only grocery store clerks on a NG callout rather than somebody from 'Cool Hand Luke' The juniors who are inexperienced in interogation and being prison guards take the 'stress out' part as a means to control and without proper supervision decide to make it as entertaining as possible. Occasionally, a prisoner pisses one of them off and get's special treatment. All the while, the whole operation is unknown to everyone, degenerating into a desensitized normallicy. They even take pictures of each other to send home. I think better supervision as clearly this was missing, rotation of personel as bordom and fimiliarity always breeds contempt and a clearer SOP would be in order to fix the main problems there. A review of the POW treatment standards and how to ensure that the line between day to day activity in a POW holding area and the activities of interrogators does not become so intermeshed. I don't think this problem goes up the chain of command any further than the Divisional Commander. That said, it has become apparent that it is a common problem with more than one division and now that it is identified, it becomes a problem that has to be addressed by the Corps Commander with the Chief of Staff supervising the rectification of the matter. As for it being the mind set of Amereica, I doubt there is a manual on how to have bare assed Arabs form a pyramid or the proper proceedure for getting a hooded naked guy on a box. This is from a military that has manuals on how to polish a button for crying out loud. It is desensitizing, improper supervision and dulling of sense of duty. Nothing more.

Those in the prison never thought that what they were doing was wrong Black Dog. That is what all the forus is on with the hearings and all, to find out why they thought this was right. 'Threat of Courtmarshall' never entered their mind so there was no pause to take. Were they following orders? Did they just take the acts as normalicy in war? Let's wait to see what the commision finds out before you presume to know everything, otherwise all arguments using this as a basis to theorise about US military mindset are crap.

"No bill poses a greater or more immeiate threat to my bank account than my truck payments." Does that mean I am going bankrupt or that I better pay attention to it or it could become a real problem? Iraq had to be dealt with, when? Yesterday? Nobody said that, he "said the danger is so great" and "that it is time" When is it time? Yesterday or when we can do it properly? Nowhere does it say immediate or imminent. In the same speech he also said: " The United States will work with other nations. We'll work with other nations to bring Saddam to account. We'll work with other nations to help the Iraqi people form a just government and a unified country. And should force be required, the United States will help rebuild a liberated Iraq." Gee, just tripping all over themselves to get to Iraq within a day or two, stopping off of course in the pickup so Chirac can parachute in to stop the 'imminent' threat you speak of. Is this coalititon he is trying to set up at this time sprung loaded ready to move in hours or years? "Grave and gathering" sounds like something imminent could possibly or probably happen in the future, soon maybe. Not imminent though. Try Cheny; Nope, even with bad intelligence, he still doesn't say or imply that it is imminent. If he did it would sound like this; "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction and is ready to use them immediately against our friends, against our allies, and against us. We must act now. He didn't though did he?

No way. Catch the news on the commission, nobody is wavering from getting to the bottom of the abuse there. Nobody is connecting the two as justification. Privately, I can see people seething, but officially, any abuse will be dealt wit severely.

Got some examples we can look at and pick apart? This guy left nothing to chance in the coup dept. Name a few equivilents who devoted most of his resources to secret police so we can compare. Like the French? If there was a media war going on in which the French stated over and over that they were ousting the British and laid down a timetable for their turning over power to an interim government which in turn would lead to elextions with the freedom for candidates to run on their own platform I don't see any problem. I do, however, understqand the impatience, the distrust as well. I am not stupid BD, I know the history same as you and the US's track record of supporting Dictators to get their own ends. This time as I have observed it would have been so much easier to simply oust Saddam and install their own Exilled Man and leave the entire Regime Structure intact from mid level down. For this reason and the stakes, they are doing this right and totally. That is why it disturbs me to see that they have brought back Regime Generals to take charge of some Iraqi Army units because they didn't take the right action to begin with. Vietnam all over again, they are afraid to do what it takes to win and thus, allow the media to whittle away at them instead of making a fast hard strike to take out people like Al Sadir before they grow strong using the Media.

No Black Dog. Issues do not stand on their own most of the time but rather in conjunction to others. For example, Sven Robinson stole a ring. Will he get hard time? Doubt it. However, if a drug addict with a rap shett long as your arm did it, it would have a different outcome. Israel is a physical threat to none but those who attack her. All other problems with Israel are diplomatic and can be solved once her security issues are solved. Of course, it is a cycle that has to be broken and as the issues are complex and passion runs deep on both sides and they are unlikely to find a simple solution. As a westerner, I find no threat from Israel so would be very unlikely to wish my country to join in on a Coalition to Regime Change Israel. If they started flying planes into Canadian or US buildings and harbored those who did here then that attitude might change. In the meantime, Saddam was a threat to us, not to is sons, not to his family and Israel is not a teat to us or to any in the ME who don't attack her. Now, if you want to talk about policy change on how Israel is allowed to go about annexing territory, then I'm probably in agreeance with you.

OK, Israel is in non compliance. Get a coalition and attack them. Don't be surprised if the US doesn't join in and be prepared to see your coalition get it's kicked hard. Now, back to Iraq. No, there were good reasons why it was Iraq; geography, oil wealth to aid the reconstruction, a hated government, a government that would not be missed by it's neighbors and even aplauded once gone, a fairly modern people with an industrialized base and a reason to justify it - WMD and non compliance to a ceasefire. Kuwait, hmmmm. What resolutions have they broken? What countries have they invaded? As for democratic reforms in those places, they will happen albeit, slowely once this is over. To spend decades making them while ignoring Saddam and his resumption of his production of WMD and material is idiocy.

No Black Dog, I believe that contrary to what you predict, the result will be a strengthening of the resolve of the US to do this right and not take revenge. Like a spurned lover and the best revenge being happy the US will carry out it's mission using the humane principals that they have said they represent. To fall into the trap of counter atrocities is counter to all the crap they are gong through with this commission on POWs. I believe that this is an opportunity for them to rise above the world's impression of them and carry on like they have except with a new outlook. Like an insult in an argument, this atrocity means that Al Queda is getting desparate as they know they stand to fall into irrelevency if Iraq becomes free. As so many have said, Iraq will gt worse the closer to freedom it gets..

AL JAZEERA Watched it, more like 'sawed' off his head. What is even more disturbing is that these guys would love, even more, to do this to your five or six year old son or daughter on camera.

How much does it cost to have over a hundred thousand troops parked and idling outside his borders to provide incentive to not attack other countries? Who was footing the bill for Saddam being 'a paper tiger?' How long were they supposed to stay there to make sure he was a 'paper tiger?' How many more resolutions were to be enacted to show him that nothing the UN did was a threat to him? Wha...? The Iraqis? Oh sorry, you meant another ruthless dictator taking him out in a coup and then enacting the same poclicies that he had in place, using the same infastructure and most of the lower level members staying in place. For a minute there, I thought you meant a popular uprising or something idiotic like that.

Read Kays report. It refutes everything you just said. the whole thing was there in pieces to be reconsituted. Know what Chemical weapons are made of? Pesticide with a few extra prodeedures thown in. Not that simple but all the componants can be separate and then combined later providing you have the expertise, equipment and basic recipes. All you need is delivery systems. Read Kays report. It details the extraordinary attempts to keep and develop deliver systems. BTW, do you have any idea of what a 'stockpile' of chemical agent would look like? Take the whole thing that the world figured Iraq had and it would fit into a two car garage. Take it apart and it fits into a couple of semis. Take it apart futher and you can put it into a few private basements or in some holes in the ground the size of which Saddam was found iin. Now, lets go to what Kay found, a few percursors that can be carried around in an overnight bag and be used to make much more. Remember, Iraq was supposed to have given up on alllllllll this stuff. So why was Blix and Kay (and Kay's successor) still finding stuff that should, to Saddam, have been an extremely hot potato? Answer, he had every intention of carrying on with his aspirations after the UN gave up. Saddam with WMD, Saddam with nukes. He never would have stopped. Read Kay's report.

When one has attacked four other countries in the region and has umpteen resolutions against them and flaunts them all while UN inspectors are threatened and thwarted, it would become an issue. Until then it’s a bad example for your point. Nice try. The so called ‘Imperialism’ of the US is not the same. In days of old, the British, French, Spanish, Dutch and Portuguese all attempted to carve out their little empires for their own exclusive use. That is not happening here. The US is not attempting to enslave anybody, they are not putting the people under their boot but rather making steps for self determination. Quite the opposite from what you portray. I know that this comment will not die here as you percieve this from a polar opposite, but why I wonder. We read the same stuff, are both intelligent and yet make different assumptions. Al Queda, Hamas, Jihad and a few dozen others. Pick up a paper, they bomb all over the world. So tell me BD. How does Democracy grow in say .... Iraq under Saddam? How would the people of Iraq come out from under the boot of Saddam? A few protests and he realizes his faults? Comon, you have to tell us. Have the people that are not permitted communication devices to tap out morse code messages on pipes, smoke signals, what? Write a few letters in between torture sessions? I do agree with your last point here Black Dog. I do wish that the US would lay down some heavy handedness with Israel but as for building bridges with the ME, it will only be possible when we are similarly and idealogicly compatable. On one hand, you have Medival Minded Power Brokers like Kings, Dictators, Strict Religious leaders and on the other you have presidents for life. None of them want to change, none of them will change and the people themselves suffer the most. The dissent and constriction leads to being likely recruits for terrorism. Here, you advocate being more friendly to these leaders or to push for change? I think the latter. Given that, in Saddam’s case, the pitch fell on deaf ears.

Point is Black Dog that Saddam had every intention of resuming the manufacture and weaponisation of WMD as soon as the inspectors left. Hardly an effective programe now is it? He never complied, never had any intention. READ KAY'S REPORT TO THE HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE, Oct 2 2003. It has all sorts of examples of deception, actual material that showed Iraq was in breach of the ceasefire on fully intending on reconstituting it's WMD programs. As for WMD themselves, we can argue semantics all day but the general wish of the world was to have Saddam give up these aspirations and had fought a war, enacted sanctions, conducted inspections to verify adherence and enacted 14 resolutions to do so. And still he had no intention of complying. Go ahead, read the report from Kay, there may not be the smoking gun there but rather, a smouldering fire wating to spring to life the moment the world gave up. That might not justify this to you but it sure makes the world a lot safer in the long run. Crap. Totally BS. Does he say that Iraq is an imminent threat? No, rather he says that Iraq is number one on their to do list. Who is second and third? Fourth? IT'S ALL HERE BLIX'S REPORT Oh, OK then. Gee, had me worried there for a minute. So having trailerloads of this stuff is harmless and can be fed to cattle or what? It's deadly chemical for crying out loud, why hide it and decieve inspectors if it's harmless. This is not the smoking gun but rather an idication of the BS that Saddam and Co were handing out as fact to inspectors. What about all the stuff they didn't find? Guess that we can just wait a few million years and all sorts of stuff beomes harmless too. No sense doing anything about anything then. Black Dog, I can't beleive you said that. Bush - Ste of the Union Read the resolutions and cross reference them. The intent is clear as they refer more than once to 'prior' and 'subsequent' resolutions reiterating that the old ones still stand and that the one spoken of is still ineffect and applies to subsequent ones. . Gee Black Dog, I don't feel threatened by Israel having nukes, do you? I imagine that if I were a terrorist or some Islamic Fashist I wouldn't like it but I don't care. I am not and find that as we share many of the same idealogical similarities as Israel so don't feel threatened. I have more concern for Al Queda, Hamas, Syria or Iraq under Saddam having them though as not only do we not share many similarities but often find ourselves the object of their anger.. In that case, I would feel somewhat uneasy. Can you provide me with even the loosest of proceedures or SOPs that one of the latter group might use as critera for a launch other than self defence?

"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late." Bush - State of the Union Address Doesn't sound like anything is an immediate threat here. To the contrary, it is pretty clear that he won't wait until it becomes immediate. He didn't say it in Greek either but in pretty easy to understand English. No, when the UN started to waffle they provided another reason, the real reason. KK BD You missed it. If Iraq, comming out from under the boot of one of the most reppressive regimes on the planet, with a modern fairly well educated people, a central geopolitical location and people, riches beyond most countries in the world cannot become democratic and self governing. Then it means that none of them can. It is hope that is at stake here. If it fails, the rising tide of Islamo Fashism will prevail. If they win the struggle in Iraq or it falls into chaos, the US will more than likely leave and let the region turn into the dream that Islamic Militents hope for. A horrific version of Afganistan under the Taliban. When the next major terrorist strike hits the west, the US will not respond with dreams of installing democracy or human rights, but with a security crackdown the likes of only seen in dictatorships. The rest of the world will follow suit as they are attacked as well with stock markets collapsing as oil markets tumble. People the world over will starve as trade is all but stopped between east and west. The US will enact strict defensive measures with no pretension of making idealogical statements. A lot of death, and a lot of bombs. Terrorists know that this is bigger game than one country. If they lose this one, they begin a long trip into irrelevence.

To summarize the summary: Nor do they exclude that possiblity Even Blix, who was doing everything he could to avert war could not say that WMD themselves were not in Iraq. Hmmm, that would mean WMD right? Hmmm, that would mean WMD right? Somewhere in the amount of 2 million pounds of it, enough to fill three or four semi trailers. Gee, Saddam was at least staying busy while he hampered inspections. What could he have been moving around with all those helping hands? WO! Iraq was seemingly decieving the inspectors. Imagine that. Why though? MAybe to keep the stuff they had said they destroyed even though they didn't? Hmmm that would mean deception and not cooperating with inspectors right? Hmmm, that would mean WMD if dropped in one of the warheads they had right? Hmmm, afterwards Blix discovered these have a range of more than 600 miles. This would mean prohibitted weapons right? Hmmm, scince then they have discovered scientists with crates of 'take home work' documents in their homes. One even had parts for a freakin particle separator in his garden as 'take nhome work' for crying out loud! Where is this stuff? Well, they bury fighter jets and move labs around. Why is it beyond the scope of anybody's immagination to think that three trailers containg drums of whatever are not somewhere under the ground in the uninspected two thirds of Iraq? Or in one of these unaccounted for warheads in one of the 120 uninspected weapons depots? Anyhow, the world thought they were there. Herre are some quotes from leaders who are quoted using the same intelligence the US worked on. And here are the applicable resolutions: 686 686 678 On 27 Jan, Blix reported all sorts of stuff still being discovered in Iraq. They were cooperating he said, 'an encouraging sign' but nowhere near the spirit of the orders they had signed the ceasefire with. For a country that was supposed to be free of 'WMD and all quipment, related material and resources' (including dual purpose stuff) thery sure had a lot that was 'discovered' rather than 'turned in.' 687 Seems that this all adds up to a cease fire that was broken by Iraq. Or should I say, never fullly complied with. Therefore, member states (USA, France, Britain and whoever else including Syria, SA and all) cooperating with the government of Kuwait, acting under res 678 para2 "all subsequent resolutions" can simply resume military action. I have no illusions of what would happen to Israel if they didn't have them. As well, if you say that Israel with Nukes and an elected Government is the same as a band of Belt Bombers dancing around a smoking missile shouting "Ali Akkbarr!" and firing AK 47s in the air I have to question your sanity.

I can't believe you wrote that. Therre is oly one reason for the war and that was to free the people of Iraq and set up a system that provides for the people an opportunity that we in the west enjoy known as democracy. Scince they have never experienced it or even had the ability to vote in what type of governing means to live under is it any wonder that terrorism breeds so easily in a place where people have no hope? That is the reason. WMD was a pretext. You are months behind the ball here. When the focus shifted from WMD to 'Regime Change' back in Feb '03 you should have understood clearer. Do you understand what is going to happen if they are unsuccessfull? I don't think you do and it has nothing to do with Iraq. Let me hear your theory before I give you mine. Is that why the USSR collapsed? Because it was a successful political system? You ought to write a book on that theory. And they couldn't go the distance. Time tells all friend.

Economic Left/Right: 0.75 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.64 Shoot, they didn't have any famous people in my corner so I could tell what it means.

Whenever whatever. He killed far more in day to day administration on average than have died scince the US invaded. In this endeavor the US has saved lives. One more thing, as they are unearthing the mass graves they are dating them as well. They are finding a large part of them are recent (92-97) . Thought you might like to know that so that you can make an Anti USA theory in advance before they publish their findings.

Can't believe I actually responded to this drivel but here it is; KK Wrong dad, they were in violation of a UN brokered cease-fire. KK Possibly, in any case, they did have WMD related material, related equipment, resources and an ongoing programs to build missile delivery systems in breach of the UN resolutions that represented the cease-fire. Hence, the cease-fire was invalid and ‘Member Nations assisting the government of Kuwait’ could legally resume military action. KK Cool if you are not paying the Billion$ plus fee per month to have a hundred thousand troops on the doorstep of Iraq to provide the incentive for cooperation that was unheard of before they were there. Even with those troops posted there, cooperation as Blix put it ‘still left much to be desired’ as prohibited material and equipment that was declared nonexistent was being discovered left and right on a daily basis. Inspections were to verify, not discover what they never hid well enough. Something most people don’t get. KK No dad. They will be found when they are found. Most idiots thought that Bush would fabricate WMD but he never did. Most idiots though Kay’s job was to fabricate and he never did. Most idiots suddenly believed Kay when he said he never found any WMD but suddenly didn’t like him when he said he found all sorts of deception, material, equipment and facilities that were all prohibited under the UN resolutions proving what Blix had already declared which confirmed yet again that the Invasion was Legal. KK Wrong Daddy O. To use them to intimidate it’s neighbors so that they could invade them like they did Kuwait. The more power Saddam had, the more ground he could take. With a nuclear weapon he could keep that territory simply by aiming it at a population center in the ME, preferable not Israel as that would have a counter effect but something like Ridayh would do equally well. KK Well dad, what are you? An idiot? Saddam told Dan Rather just before the invasion that he believed that America would never attack and pointed to all sorts of demonstrators around the world as proof. If he had weapons that could be found he would lose much of that support, support that he counted on. In effect, those demonstrators helped seal the fact of the invasion believe it or not. KK They didn’t choose, Saddam sent them. As well, Saddam killed on average three thousand of his people per month, since the war, ten thousand people have died as a result of it, net saving of over twenty thousand lives. KK Saddam never intended to use WMD while the coalition was outside his country and sanctions were in place, he hid them and the technology to rebuild them so that after the UN tired of the cat and mouse game of trying to find what they knew he had and after providing no proof of disposal they would give up, lift sanctions and he would restart his quest for power using these unfound weapons (if any) but would easily restart the programs which he had so carefully dispersed about the country. KK Correct. But first, they did have those weapons and provided no proof as to what their status was. While inspectors, under UN mandates looked about the country, they were hampered, lied to, not cooperated with and sometime s threatened both on the ground, in the air, and their families at home as well. While working with this crap, they still managed to turn up item after item of prohibited material and equipment that were prohibited from being in possession by Iraq and each item was then immediately declared by Iraq as being the last of it’s kind- until the next one was discovered. KK Not really, Saddam was a cruel dictator in violation of UN law who was in the middle of a cease-fire after threatening to ignite the most volatile region on earth with his quest for domination of the same. Even that was not enough reason though. What provided the reason was 9 11 when the west understood quite well that the people of the ME had to be given an example, a starting point so that they could leave the middle ages with it’s ineffectual and cruel ways of governing and providing for the people and move into the modern age. Thus providing a lesser opportunity IN THE LONG RUN for terrorist recruiting. KK Yes he did. 300 thousand people went missing in a twenty year period, wives were dragged off the streets, raped and tortured in front of husbands and children in order to purposefully instill fear. KK Kind of but in a much higher degree. Saddam and son’s not only used this torture practice as a means of governing but enjoyed it as well. Making video tapes for their own amusement as well as to distribute to others as a warning. China also is not in the Middle East, remember, that is the region that is giving the problem here. China is providing for it’s people and not sponsoring Anti Western Terrorists and trying to expand it’s theology by terrorism or even force. KK Duh dad. You need to go back to school. If you can’t understand that there is more than one dimension to this issue then you will have to go back to Dad School. Many reasons add up to the Invasion of Iraq, none of them stand on their own yet put together add overwhelmingly in favor of the action. KK And for pleasure of the individuals that make up the regime. Rape was a common tactic when advances were refuted by desired women of officials. Unlike in western society these torturers had no accountability to their actions and people also did not have to be accounted for. Definitely a government that nobody is sorry to see go away. KK Not quite. China does it as part of it’s control;, remember, Iraq does it to gain personal power by members of the regime. KK No they are all bad. Communism is a perverted form of Socialism in which state sponsored terror is used to enforce supposed equality and loyalty to the government (which is ruled by a specific elite thereby making it a dictatorship) True or pure Socialism only works well in small groups like communes. Once you get bigger than a town you start to have human nature take over with it’s laziness, abuses of power and such. That is why the private sector is far more productive than the government sector. There are individual incentives that communism cannot give. KK In Canada we can though. Cuba is a Communist country ruled over by a dictator. Hence, may as well call it a Dictatorship. Witness the thousands of people who risk life and death to escape it every year. Definitely anything but a good society. KK Dad doesn’t get it here, Castro is still in charge. Every other country on the planet does business with him and he still can’t make it work. Another example of why a Communist Dictatorship does not work for the people. KK No, Pakistan is our ally against terrorism thank goodness as it has nukes. If it were not, it may be subject to regime change itself but with nukes the US would probably do anything to keep the present regime in power evil as it is.. KK No, he is not our friend. Countries are not friends with other countries, they form alliances. If we were trying to be friends, negotiations would be done with six foot purple dinosaurs named Barney rather than lawyers, statesmen, financiers and military people. KK No, the government of Afghanistan harbored the group that committed 9 11 and did not give them up. KK And they never expected them to support people that were trying to kill those of us in the west. It’s part of that alliance thing, once they were, then the next moment, they decide that they want to kill us westerners. They sgnalled their change of theology by harboring those who attacked the US and susequently, by not releasing the perpetrators opened themselves up to attack. KK That’s their business Daddy O. What they really did was harbor the people who committed 9 11. KK No. The Saudis are fence sitters holding back a tide of anarchy that would disrupt the supply of oil from the industrialized west. If the flow is stopped or deemed unstable then other sources will have to be used leaving the people of the Middle East starving and the price of oil skyrocketing. Very bad for everybody, French, Iraqis, Saudis included. KK Dad! You’re beginning to get it! At one time he was our ally, when he began to kill us, he became our enemy. You learn so ... so .... quickly. KK No. . Stop using the word friends Dadster, it only reinforces the fact you don’t understand politics. Once the Soviet Union fell, business returned to where it was before with the Europeans vying for cultural and economic dominance over the world. France’s deals with Iraq suffered greatly when the US invaded and took out Saddam, also interrupting Chirac’s bribe money from Saddam for not stopping the US. Russia, not a rich country also lost billions it could hardly afford to lose in the same way by the ousting of Saddam. KK No, not evil, inconsequential. They have shown that even in the face of an obvious and justified opportunity they will still try and maintain the old status quo where they attempt to put the screws to America simply because they can in order to create their own brand of ‘hegemony’ on the world as leader of the EU... KK No, individuals do. There is no love or hate in governments. Remember our discussion on friends and countries? KK No. Saddam was a useful ally. Never a friend. He stopped being an ally when he started doing things that were counter to our interest. Coincidently, those things he was doing were counter to the world’s interests not to mention the people of the region. To them, it was life and death. KK No, made him our ally in that particular effort. KK Dad, you have the gift for sure. Now try to connect the dots in that the political world never stands still. Ideological opposites become allies and Ideological positives become adversaries at different time periods. It’s really quite interesting as the countries of the world jockey for position. KK No. We never looked the other way. However, we did remember and it provided reason to not be a full ally with him in later years. The French, Germans and Russians, who provided him with more than 80% of his armaments seemed to continue their friendship quite well. KK This can be called cause and effect. At one time we were allies with Russia against the Germans. The French against the German but as soon as the German threat was removed, everybody returned to the start point, save France, who needed us to stop the Russian s from taking them over. As you can see, allies and enemies are not cast in stone, rather, they are fluid depending on the situation and threat. KK Yes that is true. A capitalistic society will by nature try to make money where it can. KK Dad, you are a better economist that a political analyst. You really should stick to your strengths and make change for a dollar instead. KK Dad, you reared a kid with ADD. Thought you were talking about money, where did God pop in? KK Kind of like he understands that he is not God and believes in a higher being like most of the people on the planet. KK Dad must have gotten tired of idiotic thread as well. I have had enough too.

KK Saddam, 400 thousand of his own people in executions and ten thousand since the war began. As for your second point of there being millions dead after the US has left, you are assuming that the US will not win or be successful here. KK You are telling me that Marie Anoinette is the security and terror equivilent to Saddam Hussein? Cut me some slack here! Saddam’s whole being was energized into preventing a coup. It wasn’t simply a hobby but a systematic regime of torture and spying that made Communism and the Nazis pale in comparisson. Neighbors dared not speak for fear of being turned in to the police and torture and rape was used to keep everybody in fear of standing out in any way or form. He built highways to cordon cities off so that his tanks could move and separate whole population areas to enforce control, the right hand never knew what the left was doing. If you think that people could gather in any number in Iraq to protest you are dead wrong. Dissent is met with instant imprisonment. In France and Russia the situation was not one of being in touch with the voice of the people but hinged around the political equivilent of ‘nobody being there to watch the pot boil’ as leaders were so out of touch with what was really happening that people simply took matters into their own hands. Saddam on the other hand maintained the complete opposite, keeping everythng and body under his boot. The Euros thought they were benevolent to the people, on the other hand, Saddam had no such illusions. Let’s look at another fact. Arabs don’t agree too well with each other. Witness the taking of Damascus with Lawrence. You figure that 25 million can get together in secret to oust a leader who is ready for them? No, there is no comparisson to the revolutions in France or Russia. KK See the above on mass graves and check out Amnesty International. It was a regular Disneyland. KK Adhere by the ceasefire agreement and have the embargo lifted? Stop building palaces so that he can feed his people? Actually distribute the food and supplies instead of hoarding it for his military? KK Now it is no longer communist because democracy won the cold war. KK Communism is state terror and control, socialism is equality. There is a big difference. Read the democracy thread and it explains it. KK There you go, words of wisdom. Now, if we can convince the Left of your's and Bush's theology then maybe they will stop complaining about what is happening in Iraq and understand the this is 'going to be a long and difficult struggle.'

Blackleaf, I had some friends who where (and are) Search and Rescue Specialists in the Canadain Forces. Part of their training is to do a similar thing with dogs whereby the dog is drugged and then mortally wounded. It is their task to keep the dog alive as long as possible in order to practise their skills. There is nothing new in your quote except the misinterpretation that it is done for fun. My friends did not enjoy doing this but knew that it was part of somethng that would save human lives. Evil slaughterhouse workers? How about idiotic people who cannot discuss an issue without going off the deep end and using only slanted editorials to support their arguments?

You have examples where a fair vote was taken for the general population to agree to perpeputal savery and being subject to mass exectutions, state terror for their lives and those of their children and so on? Normally, societies such as those have communism opporsed on them. Unless of course there is one that has been voted in with term limits and a constitution that ensures that the people can hold regular democratic votes to change the government from time to time.

Black Dog, are you constrained by simple hatred of an idividual? The whole thread was about the CBC and out of it, you pick a sentence that mentioned Bush as an example of the bias of the CBC and you don't agree, defend or remain neutral. Just simply use it as a dig to bash Bush. I am not defending him here and actually have a concrete reason for disliking him that goes to my core far more than you however feel that you are being unfair and unreasonable as he does have accomplishments unrecognised by you and those who simply use this as a focal point for their cause. After all, Hitler gave us the Bug and was an animal lover. Musillini made the trains run on time.

Good one August. I read recently wher it was equated to porn. A Judge said "I can't define it, but I sure as hell know it when I see it." I throw my two cents worth in and strangely enough, adds up to something similar to yours. Democracy is when the people have a strong voice in their own fate and leaders are replaced when they are no longer working for the people. Now as we have worked over before, true democracy is out the window as soon as more than two people gather, "Want to go to a movie?" One asks. "Whatever." Answers the other. Movie it is and there at the 'Three Stooges Meet Frankenstien' the second says "Dam you and your stupid movie idea." Where the first says "Democratic baby, you passed." Guess I'm trying to say that manknd is naturally democratic. If we were not then we would simply follow the biggest person, the richest, the fastest whatever. Instead, we look for the person that overall ensures our interests.