French Patriot
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Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?
The Bible teaches one to start a spiritual journey from the
bottom, i.e. from a stage where he must consider himself as a born sinner and starts his journey upwards from there. One reaches the second stage when he realises that he is the son and God is his father. The final realisation is when he realises that he and the Father are one.
This is similar to the spiritual journey of a Hindu who starts his journey from the Dwait stage, where he thinks himself and God to be two distinct entities, graduates to Vishishta Adwait, a stage where he thinks himself a fragment/fraction of Him and finally reached to the Adwait stage where he merges himself with that infinite consciousness.
Stevan Davies. The savior is not a celestial being brought to earth; the savior is a capacity of the mind, and the savior’s journey from above is actually one’s own journey from within.
John Lennon. It seems to me that the only true Christians were the Gnostics, who believed in self-knowledge, I.E. becoming Gods
themselves, reaching the Christ within, the light is the truth. Turn on the light. All the better to see you my dear.
John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they
are life.
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the
key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your
tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
I think Jesus hated the idol worshipers of the traditional supernatural based religions and wanted to put us on a better and more naturalistic Gnostic Christian path of seeking knowledge and wisdom through Gnosis; that being a deeper knowledge of the self and others.
Do you agree?
Regards
DL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY&feature=youtu.be -
On 11/6/2018 at 1:09 AM, August1991 said:
God does not speak Arabic.
The Prophet may speak Arabic - but "she" does not speak in any language.
===
What is the "language" of Allah?
========
Is it true that for Muslims, God only speaks Arabic?
The language God uses is whatever the listener understand.
God is within each of us. Not a supernatural one but the only one anyone can ever know.
Here is a presentation of how Gnostic Christians see reality.
I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.
The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
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The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.
Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?
Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”
That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.
Regards
DL
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13 hours ago, paxamericana said:
If you're talking about the literal sacrifice of Jesus it is symbolic of sacrificing something now for the future. It's a story that was meant to teach us to value the future and not give into fleeting impulses of the present.
I'm not sure what your angle is but as an Atheist my criticism of other atheist is that they view the bible and religion too harshly, they need to view it as a source of ancient wisdom meant to convey an idea. Those idea while subject to interpretation and often times for malignant purposes still contain within them the collective knowledge of your ancestors. Religion therefore should be view as a moral compass, leading one to live a life towards meaning instead of nihilism that so many atheist and unlearned/non-believers find themselves in. You can't dispense with thousands of years of ancient wisdom written by our ancestor and expect society to function. Those wisdom are borne out of a chaotic past and often paid for in blood. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water a wise Canadian once said...
I am all in for some of what you put, but to look to immoral religions, like our mainsteam ones for moral guidance is like asking Satan to guide us.
If you are living by the Golden Rule, you will condemn and fight against the mainstream religions.
Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.
Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.
https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk
Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.
Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes. Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.
Regards
DL
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On 1/2/2019 at 8:13 PM, OftenWrong said:
My take on it is that Jesus wasn't just the son of God, he actually WAS God. Thus the analogy of it being another innocent person paying the price fails.
So you do not believe that God cannot die. Strange when he is said to be eternal. Ok.
Why call the nailed guy God then?
He was not special if he can die like the rest of us and never return.
Regards
DL
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On 1/2/2019 at 1:20 PM, paxamericana said:
Well the theme of human sacrifice isn't new, every ancient culture had it. I would say it was borne out of necessity. If you're to survive the winter best a child or elderly get sacrificed to save the rest of the family. One less mouth to feed. Again you have to view the bible with some historical context, it's almost 2000 years old. It was a different time back them.
Not all cultures. I would say few. You do have a point where resources were finite and a population could not be allowed to exceed the resources.
That has nothing whatsoever to the scapegoating of Jesus.
Regards
DL
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The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?
I find Christianity immoral for substitutionary atonement as well as many others of their moral tenets.
Without the blood sacrifice of Jesus, Christianity fails as a salvific religion.
We could thump all day with passages that both support blood sacrifice as well as quote the many passages against it as shown with both types of quotes in this link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U
Recognizing that there are many contradictory passages in scriptures, let’s ignore them all and just look at the morality of substitutionary atonement.
Scriptures tell us that to perfect our wisdom, we must get out of the Christian theology. I think that those passages are asking us to confirm our thinking with analogies that do not include Christian dogma.
With that in mind, I offer an analogy for discussion.
Scriptures say we are all children of God.
Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.
Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?
In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended?
Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?
For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.
Do you agree that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. Do you agree that to abdicate personal responsibility or use a scapegoat is immoral?
If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.
Regards
DL
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The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?
I find Christianity immoral for substitutionary atonement as well as many others of their moral tenets.
Without the blood sacrifice of Jesus, Christianity fails as a salvific religion.
We could thump all day with passages that both support blood sacrifice as well as quote the many passages against it as shown with both types of quotes in this link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U
Recognizing that there are many contradictory passages in scriptures, let’s ignore them all and just look at the morality of substitutionary atonement.
Scriptures tell us that to perfect our wisdom, we must get out of the Christian theology. I think that those passages are asking us to confirm our thinking with analogies that do not include Christian dogma.
With that in mind, I offer an analogy for discussion.
Scriptures say we are all children of God.
Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.
Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?
In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended?
Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?
For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.
Do you agree that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. Do you agree that to abdicate personal responsibility or use a scapegoat is immoral?
If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.
Regards
DL
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Not all issues can be covered and I think Dawkins focus was on religion.
Regards
DL
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On 12/29/2018 at 11:57 AM, bcsapper said:
Right. If God's plan can never go off track or be fouled, that's one pretty crumby plan he has there.
Maybe he needs an assistant.
Assistant? No.
Replacement? Yes.
Preferably one without genocidal son murdering tendencies.
Regards
DL
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On 12/29/2018 at 11:48 AM, OftenWrong said:
Well it sure looks like this shit is pretty screwed up down here, if you know what I mean. Apparently big mistakes are allowed.
You might not be looking at the stats that show just how well we are doing down here, in spite of the garbage mainstream homophobic and misogynous religions. They are the best that we have ever enjoyed. I see a near full cup while you see a mostly empty one.
My stats prove my view superior.
Some of those stats are at the end of this link. I have more should you need them.
Regards
DL
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Is God’s plan on track? Were we created to be sinners?
Many think that God has a plan for all of us sinners, a perfect plan actually, to get as many of us into heaven as possible. Even all of us, if God is as perfect as some say he is. No God worth the title would have it any other way.
God's plan can never go off track or be fouled as that would show a weakness in God and his ability to plan perfectly.
The above being irrefutable, if there is a God and a plan, indicates that this reality is the best that Yahweh can accomplish?
It is interesting that scriptures say that to backslide is evil, while it ignores that if there is a plan in place, then the world is in it’s best possible form. Scriptures that show a backsliding God and world must be wrong.
Thanks to God’s plan, we are living in perfection. To think otherwise would be seeing God get a fail on maintaining the initial perfection of creation.
In the beginning, all was perfect. That perfection cannot be allowed to backslide if there is a God.
Do you see God as a backslider or a God whose plan is running along in a perfect way?
Sing the hymn with me of Adam’s sin. It says that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to God’s plan.
Were we created to be sinners?
Regards
DL
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1 hour ago, bcsapper said:
I can't disagree there. But then, I think we're all there is.
I am a Gnostic Christian and think you correct in thinking that there is nothing greater than man.
Regards
DL
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19 hours ago, bcsapper said:
If there was a God, she'd already know what we thought.
True, but our judging tells us more about us than about God.
Regards
DL
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Does God want us to judge him?
I think that God wants us to judge him. We are to emulate Jesus. Jesus judged God and found him wanting.
Upon taking the judgement seat, Jesus indicated that it was time to retire Yahweh. Jesus saw Yahweh as no longer fit to rule over or judge man. Man had in essence graduated to his rightful place as the judge of all the Gods.
Christians, who are told by their own scriptures to judge righteously, are not doing so when it comes to Yahweh.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
Yahweh is quite a vile God. It is no wonder that Yahweh does not show his face around Christians. They would kill him. Jesus did say that he came to bring War. Perhaps he meant war against God, which would be following Jewish tradition.
If God wants us to judge him, why do most Christians not judge God in a righteous and moral manner?
Place no God above me, means that God wants us to judge all the Gods, including himself, to insure he is the best of the best. How else could we know that Yahweh was the best God to follow?
Do you agree, or are we not supposed to judge God?
Regards
DL
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21 hours ago, Wilber said:
Neither, I don't have one.
Perhaps.
Regards
DL
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13 hours ago, Wilber said:
Isn’t that what the dyslexic agnostic said? Is there a dog?
Dogs wish to serve man.
Do you see your God as our servant or our master?
Regards
DL
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16 hours ago, Wilber said:
When it comes to unconditional love, no human can match a dog.
Why would anyone want to?
Is that what you aspire to think like?
Let's chat.
Woof woof woof ruff woof.
Regards
DL
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23 hours ago, Don Jonas said:
You're saying love doesn't exist? It does and I can prove it
??
So can I, so get the quote to this lie that you put.
Regards
DL
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23 hours ago, Don Jonas said:
Jesus is love
Jesus is a person to most.
Love is a concept to most.
Are you saying that Jesus is a concept that humans call love?
If not, you make no sense at all.
Regards
DL
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14 hours ago, Truth Detector said:
What does DL stand for?
My real name.
Signing off is a business habit.
Regards
DL
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23 minutes ago, Don Jonas said:
Of course there's a God. The evidence of that is in your very psyche. What differentiates your skull from a rock? The concept of God does. What makes your skull capable of love? That's Jesus.
So you were just being a hypocrite by saying there is no supernatural, then saying that a supernatural Jesus exists.
Typical Christian two faced hypocrisy.
Thanks for showing how that hypocrisy expresses itself.
Regards
DL
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1 minute ago, Don Jonas said:
No, I'm saying nothing is supernatural.
So there are no invisible or true Gods and Jesus never did any miracles. Right?
Regards
DL
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18 hours ago, eyeball said:
No, they were the first attempts at organized systemic stupidity.
Practice clearly makes perfect.
I see it more as people ignoring common sense for their tribal natures that they appease.
More willful hypocrisy than stupidity, but I can agree that that is not a good way to think and that they are a disgrace to the human race.
Regards
DL
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35 minutes ago, Altai said:
Yes I know you dont know, this is why I am asking, because you will contradict with yourself if you reply.
I see that you do not know either or you would have informed before taking your points.
Your crystal ball is cloudy. A sign of a small mind.
Your end game was quite easy to spot.
Regards
DL
How do you see our collective moral and ethical cup? Half full or overflowing with goodness?
in Religion & Politics
Posted
How do you see our collective moral and ethical cup? Half full or overflowing with goodness?
Not to be a bean counter that ignores the evil that is still with us, but if I look strictly at the statistics for what I call the evil markers, crime, death by violence including war, poverty, poor health and
education; I see them all at the best levels we have ever enjoyed.
This is in spite of the few places where the stats are backsliding, which ironically includes the U.S., a Christian nation; whose
education level is going down, along with its moral sense.
I will let you find whatever stats you might be interested in and will only offer the stats spoken of, at the end of this link.
Richard Dawkins - Sex, Death and the Meaning of Life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLulcfyqrc0
I see our cup running over in spite of the vile and immoral mainstream religions that we are maintaining, for God only knows why. We can thank all the gods that the religious are not walking their talk and are following more moral ways.
How do you see our collective moral and ethical cup? Half full; or overflowing with goodness?
Regards
DL