Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe

Douglas Creek Estates and The Burtch lands have been reclaimed, which is a step in the right direction. The issue seems to have cooled down for the time being, but this far from over im afraid. I am seriously considering purchasing a video recorder, but It is my hope that there wont be anything for me to video tape. There is video out there detailing the behaviour of both sides, which is why the situation is frustrating. People are only seeing one side, and in my mind that is depriving them of vital information to base an opinion on. Your statement about Toronto media may be true, and it certainly doesnt surprise me. The peaceful results of negotiations into agreements reached just doesnt $ell well. Are you saying this is happening and not being reported ? I urge you to record these incidents and take them to the press. If this is true, you'll get your story. I was in the local area, and my take is that the main bias from the Toronto press is they don't want to hear about this.

Why arnt the people assaulting Natives being charged? They get arrested, released, then go back to the fence. The other point that eluded you was that very few of you on here have witnessed for yourselves whats going on - and rely on the media to prvide the whole story. Im saying keep an open mind, and take any media who only represents one side of the situation with a grain of salt. There are two sides to this story - and only one is being told.

Unfortunately, you are all taking your information from media sources who will only report one side of the situation. Taking a trip down there on a friday or saturday night may open some eyes as to whom is antagonizing whom there. Stay in the vicinity of Tim Hortons and the Canadian Tire parking lot - grab a coffee and watch how things unfold. Or cruise by the fence near the school - and see men from ages ranging for teens to late twenties - drinking and throwing bottles and stones - then ask yourself why you didnt see any of that in the news.

It is up to whatever agency that is making the allegations to provide proof that a crime has been commited Innocent until proven guilty. Any other way is just the wrong way to go about it. We cant be persecuting people without proof. When a refugee puts forth an application any allegations of mistreatment are investigated. If the government made simular allegations that the refugees committed crimes - id say we are obligated to investigate both sides. The burden of proof lies on whose shoulders? If CSIS....or an overseas intelligence bureau (country of origin) says this applicant was involved in such and such....it is up to the applicant to provide unquestionable proof they are wrong. Then again, let's say as an example China demands the extradition of their most wanted criminal...or else they'll break off any diplomatic ties and business dealings with Canada...are we prepared to wrangle losing billions of dollars (affecting countless business ventures and revenues of Canadian companies, including countless jobs involved) over a crook? Who's not even a citizen of Canada?

My concern is that returning them to the country where they comtinue to train and plot is a bad idea. I dont want these guys to be sent home, regroup and return better prepared. I understand the intent to imprison them is to prevent any more crimes being repeated. But these are not Canadian citizens....and they did the crime elsewhere. Why should we burden ourselves with the expenses of incarcerating these individuals? Wouldn't the most practical and easiest thing to do is to simply say, "sorry. bye." Agreed, Canada should not take them in particularly since that recent arrest of 17 suspected terrorists - not good optics.

Just heard that the Caledonia area is receiving a third cash infusion from the government to the tune of 1 Million dollars. As i said in the previous post - I dont think having the bypass blocked hurt business in the town - the additional traffick funneled through town would only increase the number of potential customers. I think the economic downfall in the area is a direct result of having the Six Nations demographic being made to feel unwelcome to patronise the town. For those made to feel unwelcome, it is easy enough just to drive through to Hamilton, or the other direction into Brantford. This situation should be put under some careful scrutiny. I support fully any individual who can make a claim to recoup legitimate losses, any business turning away a paying customer for any reason shouldnt receive a single penny.

We also received word tonight at The Kanenhstaton ( pronounced - Ga Noon Sta do ) Benefit Concert, that the Burtch Correction Facility lands have been returned to Six Nations, and crops have already been planted on the land A step in the right direction.

Geoffrey - you and River share the same brain on this one. You guys just cant wrap your head around the fact that the Haldimand Deed is a legally binding document. The terms of the agreement were " forever " , so unless BOTH parties agreed to alter it - it still stands. The argument that this document is based on race is ludicris - the recorded and accepted history of this document is very clear. The land was granted because the Nations fought alongside the British. Not because of their racial background, but because they were loyal allies to the Crown. The Crown, unlike the Canadian Government - valued its allies and made provisions for them as any Honourable government would for its ALLIES. Also, You morally condemn the UN charter which supports Native Rights.... Do you also MORALLY condemn the Indian Act? which clearly discriminated against Native peoples - and facilitated their children being taken away to schools which have been compared to concentration camps. Notes on the Indian Act Link to article --> http://www.bloorstreet.com/200block/sindact.htm

I agree with that statement. Lets get them into court to plead their cases. If they are personally responsible for committing crimes, perhaps they should be returned to their country of origin - but im leaning towards life imprisonment to take away any opportunity they may have to repeat the offences. And in the meatime, while the case is heard they should remain in custody. Which brings up the flip side - what if it cant be proven they personally committed any criminal act?

That is incorrect Sir That is like saying when youre father passes away you could repossess a house that he had sold years earlier. Or if he gave a gift to his neighbour ( an Old War Buddy in this case ) a gift ( the land ) - Upon his passing does that give you the right to take that gift from him? Race seems to be the paramont point with you River ( and others ), secondly money. You will never be able to understand the reality of what Native Peoples have gone through, even in the past little while. Even the last 200 years is recent history in comparison to world history. I hope that when you pass, someone doesnt waltz in and take any of the inheritance you left your children, and their children. The people who signed these agreements are long dead. People living today are trying to use their race as a basis to claim to benefits under these agreements. That is what makes land claims racist. If it was simply a matter of an contract between parties then there would be no issue today because one or both of the parties no longer exist.

If all the land involved in land claims were restored to its legal owners, im sure a sustainable and self sufficient system could be negotiated. But in order to do this they need the resources and income provided by the land. The UN wheels are a rollin with this issue, so i feel it appropriate to post the opening section of The UN Declaration on Rights of Indigenous Peoples : Take all the money that goes to band councils today and issue checks to each individual band member and then tell the band council that they need to fund themselves by taxing their band members. I am willing to bet the system will get cleaned up so fast that the band councils wouldn't know what hit them. The funding amounts per Indian is just ridiculous, I often wonder where it all goes. $40,000 per average family hand out (there is a little more than $10k per Indian spent every year), tax free (equivalent in a working man's income would be about $70k per family). Having councils tax their members is a good idea. Not giving people money/benefits based on their race is even better.

This Citizens Miltia is nothing more then a Hate gang. The need felt by the citizens of Caledonia is a direct result of manipulation of the situation by certain organised groups that have moved into the area since the protest began. They dont give a lick about what happens to the people directly involved in the situation. Native or Non-Native. There only agenda is to create tension that explodes into violence, and when that is satisfied they, and their insincere support will vanish. Unfortuneatly the media is only telling half the story - what about the constant abuse faced by people on the site? The groups that come out at night - specifically, the group congregating in the school yard - getting drunk and throwing bottles, stones or whatever else they can get their hands on. Some of this group were carted away and later released - no charges. And there are some people out there who have video evidence of what the people on the site have endured, as of yet no media will show the other side of the story. Scrib - insisting that the word of an agreement be lived up to has nothing to do with race. But if you want to research an inherently racist document look into the Indian act. Link to article --> http://www.bloorstreet.com/200block/sindact.htm

The numbers of charges laid against Native people country wide does not support the assumption that they repeatedly break the laws and got away with it. Posters in your camp say the numers of Native people in jail are disproportionate, then go right into the argument that Natives are getting away with crime? So............... Which is it? Again i ask - What laws be specific. The laws of Canada - is not a valid response - quote an article from the criminal code

I agree Charles - sounds like the residents of Caledonia are thinking about escalating the situation. Actually let me correct that - the residents listening to the hate factions stirring things up. Ive been there MANY times, and i have not seen or heard any evidence of weapons on the protest site. Oh wait I lied ! I saw a man walki... i mean weilding a walking stick. Anybody looking at the site will immediately see a peaceful sit in in progress - these people advocating this walk through want to change that - because it suits their agenda. It is beyond me how anyone could beleive such an action would remain peacful - AND maintain they are not vigilantes. This sounds like people are getting ready for impending guerilla warfare. To anybody who has been there recently: am I correct?

I am not an expert in taxation LOL I was making a theoretical argument - but i guess you missed the point i was making. ONE business on reserve pays $120 Million a year, and the band council only receives $64 Million to fund programs. And despite this people still think the Natve People do not contribute taxes *shakes head* They contribute DOUBLE the tax ( or duty or whatever name youre comfortable in refering to it ) what they receive back in transfer payments. As far as Six Nations being sovereign, the history of the relationship between the Six Nations and the Crown is very clear, but just like the land claims we just need the government to admit their validity despite the mongering of some of the population. UN anyone? Income Taxes - River! - Thats a whole new kettle of fish!! Your logic is flawed: the $120 million is an excise duty - not an income tax. American companies that wish to sell cigarettes in Canada must pay the same duty and they have no right to get even a penny back. Your example illustrates why 'Six Nations' is _not_ a sovereign nation no matter what the natives would like to believe.

Well im afraid irregardless of the Native view that they are an Independant Nation, the fact of the matter is that they pay into the same fund as non-natives. Therefore they should have the same rights to draw from said fund. but you bring about a good topic - ( Firstly lets agree at least in theory that Six Nations is a seperate Nation completely - no ties with taxation etc to Canada ) Bring into being an independant fund for providing health,financial and social support solely to Native people. For instance Six Nations will keep that $120 Million ( actually the figure will be a wee bit higher since that taxation figure is from a single business only ) in taxes that goes to everybodies programs Federally. In turn the government can allocate that $64 Million in transfer payment to other non-native programs. Right off the cuff that puts Six Nations up with $56 Million plus extra in a year to promote Six Nations Programs. Theoretically, this sounds like a great idea. I wonder if it could ever come to be?

Am I deluded, or are people just in denial of the facts. I remember way back when i started this thread, the topic was education of our youth about the true history of Canada's beginning involving Native People. You really need to read up on your history - you can start by researching the core documents involving Native Rights and Land Claims. What is important to note is that all these documents were signed and sealed by the Crown, and therefore legally binding - even today. The documents of interest in regards to Caledonia are : The Royal Proclomation of 1763 The Haldimand Deed of 1784 The Hamilton Port Dover Plank Road Agreement of 1841 Ive posted this information on a response to BigBlueMachine ( just above this post ) And also look for information regarding the Two Row Wampum Belt which i beleive will outline the relationship of the Six Nations Confederacy and The British Crown. http://hometown.aol.com/miketben/miketben.htm In regards to a UN initiative - In early May 2006 Doreen Silversmith travelled to the UN to discuss the situations Native People in Canada face. I welcome the day when these matters are finally weighed in a UN Court. Links --> UNITED NATIONS DRAFT DECLARATION ON THE RIGHTS OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLES http://www.usask.ca/nativelaw/ddirplain.html ( plain language draft ) http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/declra.htm - ( full draft ) These are a very informative read - and all sections of the document are important, but please read the paragraph beginning with " Concerned...... "

What does any of what you wrote in your previous post have to do with the original question you posed? Which was basically - What right do Native People have to access programs they dont contribute to? To which I answered, that Native people do contribute to these programs through taxation -and provided resources backing up my point. Im also awaiting an email from Stats Canada, hopefully with more information i can post. But to at least partially answer your sidetracked response : Im not going to rehash the exact conversations You and I have had on previous threads. Myself and other on the forum had a long drawn out debate regarding your issues with Native peoples. Seems youve come full circle and wish to start youre inflammatory crusade anew. Have Fun Somehow you feel your rights are still being violated, all because of the power loss incident. Which as of yet - is still under investigation, and could quite possibly be the act of a Caledonia resident - thus far we dont know. But perhaps you should try and get youre hands on some of the funds which are flowing into the local businesses - they have been allocated more funding, as i mentioned in a previous post - I dont want t doubl epost so feel free to read it and respond to the arguments ive brought up there. Last i heard at about 6pm this evening all the people ( save one who is still in custody ) the police were looking for were found, processed, and released. When are those who have been harrassing people on the site ( night and day ) going to be caught and prosecuted? We cant just prosecute one side here - two sides to every coin... With all that said - dont get me wrong I understand the source of your anger, and i can sympathise with your personal situation. Where we seem to differ is the issue that Natives have a right to be there. If you have any suggestions as to how to make the Govermnent recognise the legality of the situation - and bring about the restoration of Native land Rights in a peacable way - im listening.... LOL The rules i mean are the laws of this country, which since you say you are not a resident, don't reap the benefits, but if you wish to don't harbor the fugitves whom choose too terrorize the civilized residents. Iam not directly involved but your "people" have made me by my family loosing power food wages and our peace of mind. I'm not saying its wrong to protest I'm saying quit infringing on my personal rights to live in my community in peace. And send the criminals to jail broke the law in canada go to jail in canada.

Here is some background on the point i was trying to make :

Where in either of our posts was there any discussion about rules? What double standard? Anyone who pays into the fund through taxes is entitled to make a claim. To further my point - that ONE business contributes almost double to the Provincial/Federal tax coffers than the Band Councel receives back. To the best of my knowledge they are not required to pay these taxes but they do anyways. So if there is any double standard in the situation that would be it. Only thing Second Grade is perhaps your inabilty to read and digest the article i posted.

Same place yours does. And as long as they are contributing to this fund they are able to draw upon it. And ill add a pre-empitive quote to stop the argument i know that is coming.... Quote from article Six Nations seeks financial security from the Turtle Island Newspaper: Important to note that the money received goes to the Band Council to support public works etc. None of this money goes directly to people. That money only represents taxes of ONE business on the reserve, and taxes are still paid on most things off-reserves well.

The short answer is no, but to fully understand how the land changed hands you will have to research a few documents. The Royal Proclamation of 1763 - basicially states that all Native lands must be sold directly to the Crown, and recorded publicly in the form of treaties. Then the Crown sells/grants the land to third parties. The Haldimand Deed of 1784 - a tract of land 6 miles from both sides of the Grand River from source to termination. ( approx 950,000 acres ) After the American Revolutionary War, the Nations could not return to their homeland - now on American soil. In Honour of their military service and loyalty to the Crown - they were granted this new tract of land. The Hamilton Port Dover Plank Road Agreement of 1841 - the agreement outlines a lease of land to allows a road to be built from Hamilton to Port Dover to facilitate shipping between Lake Ontario and Lake Erie. The land covered in the lease was the road from Hamilton to Port Dover, running one half mile from either side of the road. The terms of the lease were 21 years, renewed every 7 years. It is important to note that no payment was ever received on this lease, and the fact that the Crown sold lands adjacent to this tract, when they had no legal right to these lands. Here are some supporting lnks : Royal Proclamation of 1763 ---> http://www.canadiana.org/citm/_textpopups/...als/doc9_e.html Background of the Haldimand Deed ---> http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/nr/prs/j-a2006/snjsbk_e.html Map of lands granted in the Haldimand Deed ---> http://www.reclamationinfo.com/images/hald...tract%20map.jpg Background of the Plank Road Agreement ---> http://www.sixnations.ca/Plank%20Road.pdf ( note : PDF ) Further, In 1987 this Plank Road Tract was officially placed as a land claim by the Six Nations. link ---> http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/view/3219/1/32 Hope that gets you started

Just a quick point to bring up. Caledonia has received more money from the provincial government to offset the hardships brought about by the blockade. Since the protest began some businesses have refused Native customers, ive also heard of OPP being refused service. Six Nations represents 10,000 plus people who have been told they are no longer welcome to shop in Caledonia from a number of sources. Why should people who turn customers away be rewarded with subsidies? IMO - Anybody who turns away business has no right to receive any monies. Another thing is that since the main road through Caledonia is open ( Argyle ) and the primary road from Brantford Hwy 54 is open.... residents and travellers can access the town fully. How is blocking the bypass seriously restricting people from patronising businesses in Caledonia? In fact, wouldnt blocking the hwy6 bypass force more people and potential business through Caledonia? What about people who run business on Six Nations? they run their business and have no real involvement with the protest. They have suffered financially as well ! When will they be receiving a balancing subsidy? Before someone on here says it yet again *sigh* Here goes : Not all Native people receive a monthly government cheque - the rate for welfare usage on the reserves are on par with their non-native counterparts.

In our courts everybody is innocent until proven guilty, and the burden of proof is up to the prosecution. So show me some video evidence of these altercations - and I mean the full story so everybody can accurately determine for themselves. And ask themselves the question " What would I have done in that situation? " How many contributors to this thread have actually been to the site?

Well from what ive heard the couple pulled over to the side of the road for the express purpose of causing a situation by using racial slurs. but the media condones this by not representing both sides of the confrontation. " Puzzled Old Folks " and the OPP officers encroaching upon the jurisdiction of the Six Nations Police were " lost " Hmmmm - I dont beleive either, nor do i beleive that the OPP would stand by and witness these alleged attacks. Its awfully convienient that the news agencies and private citizens are ready to film these incidents, and yet fail to get any footage containing any incitement from any townspeople whatsoever. Where were the cameras then? In my conversations with people im glad to note that most do not fall for the partial-reality portayed in the media of the last week - selective coverage. I guess getting it half right passes for conscientious journalism. sells papers though doesnt it? And this is only the first week of the media blitz. Youll have to specify where Hazel apologises for anything - the article that i read from her clearly states that things have been happening on BOTH sides, and that she didnt feel it was a good situation for anybody. The biased media coverage fails to mention the constant abuse received by the people at the site or any actions whatsoever from the towns people. The media, Police Agencies and the Military all have helicopters - is it so far fetched they would conduct nighttime flyovers? Are you at all familiar with seige tactics? Also, in previous posts and posted newsarticles it has been mentioned that a hangar at the Hamilton airport has been converted to a barracks. Soldiers at an airport with a helicopter? ( look at my surprised expression lol ) and you dont think there is any possibility that they would fly over the site at night using night vision or thermal imaging cameras? Very easy to get a body count at night using these technologies. Last time the police went in it sparked the erection of the road blockade, not to mention there are many people close by that are willing, ready and able to come to the site immediately - as proven in the first raid. So problem not solved, but some of the posters on the forum can get a warm fuzzy feeling watching video of Native people being manhandled and generally abused. The Ol' 7th Cav eh? We all know how they wound up. Heres a little history for you : That sound familiar? Even if there were no people occupying the site - there is still a freeze on development of ALL disputed lands, as well the government of canada is legally bound to " negotiate " these land claims. Another good point to be brought up again was the governments eagerness to move the land claim issues out of the courts and into " negotiations " If the canadian government truly held the Moral and Legal highround in these matters they would still be before the courts. I hope the day is soon approaching where these cases will reach an International Court. I said she sounds like a paranoid loon. That wasn't an insult but a genuine opinion. Two puzzled old folks get harrassed by a pack of native thugs, and she accuses them of "racial attacks". The news media get attacked by natives and she says they were there by order of the government to cause problems! An American border patrol car is attacked by natives and she hints at some kind of strange dark conspiracy, like, maybe the Seventh Cavalry is scouting ahead before they charge? That and claims of black helicopters whizzing through the night sky make her sound like a fruitcake in search of a nut ward. Move in the police, cart the rabble off to jail. Problem solved.