Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe

There there Argus et al. keep cool and make your point without throwin' insults around - If you can? Are you coming to the concert this Friday? Would love to see you there. Come out meet some people, get out of the house and have some fun for a change perhaps even indulge in a conversation, maybe youll learn something. See You there! Friday June 16th @ Chiefswood Park, Six Nations (Hwy 54 & Chiefwood Rd), Ohsweken, ON Noon till 12pm ************* Please Note: ************* Due to safety concerns, we will be checking all backpacks. NO DRUGS, ALCOHOL OR VIOLENCE - ZERO TOLERANCE NO ADMITTANCE will be permitted without this check. Ahh, she sounds like a paranoid nut case, frankly. This is your official spokesperson? Are you all as loony as her? She also seems to be nothing more than an apologist for the violence natives are committing. If this is the kind of mentality among the natives we might as well send in the cops now because there's never going to be any kind of agremeent.

Again I say - I find it impossible to beleive that the OPP would sit by and witness these events and not act on them. Id love to see unedited footage of what was filmed there. I just saw that incident on CTV newsnet. Apparently the reporters were covering an altercation happening between the protesters and an older couple. Another civilian who witnessed the attacks on the reporters ran to help them but it was too late. The thieves already took the camera away. Why are the cops not intervening at all??? What's happening?

The usual people on the forum seem to have derailed this topic - which was education. I guess most of you didnt read the beginning portions of this thread, and the positive discussion that began. All it took was one OFF TOPIC post by scriblett and we find ourselves back at it. Afraid of positive discussion scrib? Temagami makes a good point about hands on involvement, in his case delivering food to the site. I should go down to the site to see what I can do to help out. Staring down the organised racist agitators fueling this fire, and fanning the flames with the worry of Caledonia residents - would be the least i could do to start. Without evidence - all these stories are all hearsay. even if they are in the paper, it doesnt make it true without proof - let me see for myself. A paper with bias! and unsubstatiated facts! OH my Gosh!! * surprised look with hands on cheeks * As far as my personal experiences at the site - ive never felt threatened or intimidated in the slightest, maybe its because i dont throw insults, slurs and disrespect at anybody. All good debate on the original topic of the thread is over. Which i realise is just a smokescreen by the idiots who couldnt respond intelligently or add anything positive to the topical argument - so they have to begin throwing dirt. since reading your posts ive been watching the news reports for video of these incidents - so far i havnt seen one - until i witness it with my own eyes, im taking any media information with a grain of salt.

Does that include the residents of Caledonia? And the organised few that are present stirring up hate amongst the residents of Caledonia? seems some media agencies are one sided. And they claim all these thing happened right in from of the OPP!?!!? I DONT THINK SO!! If the events transpired as told --- I have full confidence that the OPP would have acted immediately.

Could you elaborate more on the point about Identity in regards to the topic of this thread - education/awareness - thanks. One thing though - we are bound to the actions of our fathers if they entered into a signed legal agreement. And if not...... when is the government going to hand over the lands they acquired through identical legal means?

Yes - Thank You for the post Ahni - I knew a little regarding the residential schools but i hadnt heard of the sterilisation program - so i am now searching for material about it. As well, im taking a closer look at the other locations where rights are being fought for.

That statement is beautiful It is simple, yet says so much. ( wish i had come up with it! ) And is certainly the core truth behind why teaching the full history is so important.

Betsy - your post made me remember my own lessons on American History. Which got me thinking - Why would any Canadian School teach the histories of another nation before its own? I am all for replacing some or all of the American History lessons with the more Canadian relevant teaching of Native Studies. So if room in the cirriculum has to be made.... Before anybody flies off the handle here *LOL* How many American schools teach Canadian History? I mean besides the American version of the War of 1812

The difference is that they were here first, hence the appellation " Native " and then entered into agreements in order to preserve their culture and some of their lands. Im not going to list the accompishments of Individual Native people - that isnt the scope of this thread. But that is an excellent topic to begin a new thread on! Great idea Geoffrey!!! " The Individual Accomplishments of Native People " ( you can use that ) but here is a short snippet - from an article - ( http://www.umanitoba.ca/cm/cmarchive/vol20...notindians.html ) Im providing this link with the hope that somebody may begin reasearching on their own - poke around... see what you can find out Again, off topic BUT - Canada is a multi-cultural Nation ( like it or not )- and I for one would love more exposure to the different cultures that make up this country, and the world over. Dedicating a day of the year to celebrate any one cultures; art, history, customs, food etc is an absolutely excellent idea and an opportunity that a lot of Canadians would jump at Another Good suggestion - Way to go, geoffrey!! Yet AGAIN off topic, but - A signed legal document ( aka a " treaty " ) does not equate to appeasment. It is a binding agreement between two parties. geoffrey - can you please stick to postings directly relevant to the thread, which is primarily education of our young people about Native History. thank you.

Betsy - youve missed the point here. Natives were involved in the building of this country and the history books dont reflect that. Why should they be excluded from a class about Canadian History? They were there.... but the only mentions taught in our schools are about teaching europeans about surviving on the land and trading furs. Native people had as much or more to do with Canadian History as the French settlers did - being it was their land and all.... what is mandatory in our schools? --- French Language Study. I am not French - but study of French impact on Canadian History, as well as language study is mandatory. The practicality would be in teaching the WHOLE history, not just sections of it. Even if it casts some events in a not so favourable light. Give the opportunity through education for the individual to decide for themselves - instead of limiting their exposure. My highschool even had an elective course to do with the worlds religions because students expressed an interest. I would love to conduct a survey in our schools to guage the level of interest in Native Studies. Like i said in my previous post - I suggested this course of study be made available at the high school level as PART of a History or Sociology curriculum. When i went to High School - I chose the majority of my subjects with the exceptin of the 16 mandatory courses in order to get my OSSD. But definitely i think starting to teach the full history to all young people should be started as early as possible. As far as the rest of your post regarding academics - the failure of the school system to instill even the basics of education is way off topic to this thread. You could start a new thread " Canadian Education System - Whats Sticking? - Whats Not? " to discuss that issue - I for one, will contribute to it.

Road is repaired and driveable - no charge! ( PUN INTENDED ) A court order should be followed but a signed legal document can be ignored? ( Haldimand Deed ) And really if you cant accept this agreement as fact, it doesnt provide any credibility to anything else the government signs. Furthermore - the government chose to take the court case from the courts into the current negotiations, and wouldnt that preclude any court order and police action. I think the OPP are acting very wisely - let the politicians work this out before they go and step in something. Maybe the different levels of government should get on the same page. ( Federal, Porvincial, Munincipal and Policing )

If you are going to make those comments back up your statements with facts not hearsay Temagami's opening comment is factual - but if you can refute that statement with facts and not bash another race with stereotypical and racist commentary in the process - I really do want to read about it. Further - those examples of stereotypes you provided - while not used as Thread starting material, are no strangers to this forum. It be like me starting a thread saying, "Why are there so many Indians in jail?" and adding "Don't think for a minute that this thread is about bashing Natives, although they may be prone to become lazy, shiftless addicts." Get the point?

Thank You for the reply Charles My early Canadian history was all learning about Upper and Lower Canada and the road to confederation. The only mention of Native peoples was during the lessons on the Hudsons Bay Company and the fur trade. I know that all of the history in forming the nation was not all happy days, but i do feel that the history is valid - perhaps not for the younger students right away - but definitely at the Highschool level. Adding a module into the introductory sociology courses ( they go by many names - Man in Society etc ) would be a worthwhile addition. Keeping the truth from our children is going to do them a disservice. How does that go - Those who dont remember the past are doomed to repeat it. It would be my hope that being truthful and open about past events will be an enormous source of strength for Canadian People. Sadly, we agree on that point. Whats scary is that the biggest roadblock would be the costs involved with replacing the textbooks. But im hoping continued media presence will keep getting some truth of whats going on to the public so we dont backslide into silence and secret government deals. Now that is quoted for truth!

Do you have anything relevant to add in accordance with the subject of this thread? - Which is education and your personal experience with Native Studies in the school system. But i will briefly respond without reiterating all that was said in a previous closed thread, then hopefully get back to the original subject of the thread. Native people do not want segregation as you imply. What I beleive they do want is the agreements they entered into to be honoured, and their Culture and Society recognised as distinct - therefore protected and preserved for future generations. ( sounds a lot like the deal going on in Quebec ) Canada is a Great Multi-Cultural Nation, and I for one love the variety this brings ( languages, food , customs ) I would never want any cultural group to totally assimilate into a nouveau Canadian society because of all the good things we would be missing out on. So if treating everyone equally means erasing all that makes them distinct - im not for it. Will you tell us about any Native studies you had while in school? The problems in native communities are not going to be solved by creating a bunch of mini apartheid states that can only exist if they are funded by taxpayers living and working in urban Canada. Insisting on race based rights will ultimately lead to more violence and discord. There only solution that will work is one that treats everyone Canadian equally no matter what their race happens to be.

I agree the post was definitely engineered to provoke a response. AND for the most part a reasonable discussion took place on both sides of this argument. I guess I felt the core of the subject was racial profiling in general and not bashing one race or ethnicity. But why would people single out Natives to say nasty things about? Just becasue the topic starter is presumed Native? So....some people are offended by a part of the opening statement and focus on it..., and again i say - skipped over a large issue in racial profiling, and a potentially succesful debate. I personally feel racial profiling is the wrong path, I just cant see how harassing people without proof based on race is going to help in any situation. I realise this may not be a popular viewpoint but id rather see more effort directed towards real threats by using vigilance instead of wasting time detaining innocent people. I wonder, if by detaining some of these innocent people are we distracting oursleves and letting potential threats go unnoticed?

Can you elaborate more on your point of view? I think the situation encompasses more than just a single aspect - depending on where youre going with the human nature argument in relation to Native Land Reclaimations - i may agree with you - fear of the unknown - fight or flee response when under stress etc Politics has played a role in the dispute, being that the signing of treaties was between two seperate governing bodies; The Canadian Government and The Six Nations Confederacy. In this thread id like to discuss the problem of education. How knowing all the correct historical facts beforehand might have reduced friction and promoted some understanding of WHY the people are present at the Reclaimation Site in Caledonia - and others sites Natione wide. What did you know of the situation before all the media attention?

This is why I wish there were more education of Native studies. The treaties are a part of Candian History, but i dont think most school boards look at it that way. Which is why i started this thread - to find out what level of education is being provided in schools about the history of Canada and how it was built. Also im curious as to how many people studied the Native perspective along with the Canadian history I think is mandatory regarding the English and the French. AND i suppose thirdly - How much was known before Caledonia hit the papers, and if anyone has learned more about the history involved in the dispute. The developers knew the history of litigation regarding the land - they went in with eyes open. so my sympathy for them is severely limited. I wonder if there were more education in previous generations about the history of the land - would it have affected how things progressed? and how people perceive the Native people pursuing their rights?

Newbie - im going to reiterate what i wrote to Argus in a previous post - Temagami made one statement that almost all the serial killers and mass murderers in Canada were caucasian. If you have supporting facts to the contrary id like to read them. I also made a statement to Argus - relating that if he couldnt provide a constructive argument he could just read the articles and not reply to them. Youve chosen not to ad any more to this thread - Is it because you have nothing constructive to add, or are you the intolerant one who cant stand to read an opposing viewpoint? and therefore has shied away from it. I do agree whole heartedly that some of Mr. T's comments have been sarcastic - however, he has never crossed the line by threatening anyone.

Argus - Temagami has never advocated violence against anyone, or threatened anybody And I dont think the intention of this thread was to bring about posts like that. Up until that post there was some interesting arguments to read. The Criminal Code of Canada is quite clear on the subject of racism/hate/stereotyping, and so are the rules that moderate this board. I dont think " race-baiting " applies - Temagami made one statement that almost all the serial killers and mass murderers in Canada were caucasian. If you have supporting facts to the contrary id like to read them. Im sorry you feel personally antagonised by the topic, if you dont have anything constructive to bring forth you can always sit back quietly and read the posts like Ive been doing.

Monty's post is exactly the type of racism and hate that the online crime division of the RCMP deals with - uttering threats like that is just so overwhelmingly wrong. AND i was surprised by the lack of comment directed Monty's way to directly criticise his post Do you condone what he said? The addtional value would be to stand up and say that anyone speaking in that vile a manner does not deserve to post here. Everyone speaks of lawbreakers form the recalamaition site - but they have people entering camp to cause mischief. One such incident ended up with man being shot in the face with a pellet gun. And next to no media coverage about it Is that ok because the victim was Native? What monty said is clearly aginst the law, and so far i dont see many people speaking out against that!

In this thread id like to discuss what level of awareness about Native Issues are being taught in schools today. And the level of education any one of us received growing up. In any of the Provincial school systems. I attended most of my primary school education in Simcoe County - In Grade 8 we did a unit on Native studies which consisted of a basic rundown on how the Native People provided settlers with the means to survive in this climate, followed by a mock-native banquet with some sad appoximations to corn soup and pemmican. ( nibblets and beef jerky )

It is vandalism AND terrorism! Why can't it be both? Whether the power outage was only for a few days....it is not up to you to conclude that what happened was just an inconvenience. What may be an inconvenience to you....could be a grave situation for someone. Besides, you have no right to cause an inconvenience. UPDATE!!! - read Ahnis post - ANYONE could have done the damage to the transformer, so lets wait for the Police to identify and prosecute the people involved - whether Native or Caledonian. So it may not be up to me to conclude what is considered an inconvenience AND therfore it isnt up to you to conclude it was a Native person who did the vandalism without any supporting facts. WARNING!!!!! Definitions, Opinion and Semantics follow after the beep................ BEEEP It is my personal feeling that the most commonly used definition of TERRORISM must include direct/indirect/threatened physical harm to human beings. While i feel VANDALISM involves harm to property only. and EVERYONE has the right to protest against policies they dont agree with - thats part of freedom isnt it?

Firstly, Dark Lord Read a few more posts in this thread.... If you did i might not have to reiterate again that conducting a peaceful protest ( blockading a road ) doesnt constitute terrorism. The blockade is an inconvenience for motorists nothing more, you and others make it sound like the town is encirlced and the residents cant leave the town - this is ridiculous. On the subject of the transformer - read Ahni's post - it may enlighten - it gave me a few more facts that i had not realised. Specifically, the part where ANYONE could have had access to the transformer at the time it was damaged. So to ammend my previous statement -- One or two people did the damage - so lets identify and prosecute those who committed the vandalism whether it was a Native person or a resident of Caledonia. fair enough? About your fascism...... The only thing fascist about your posting is that you would advocate violence against a racial group to support a nations interests. the rest seems less so..... How would the Dictator in your fascist state feel about this statement? Wouldnt the road be HIS? THEY sounds almost Socialist *grin* I didnt think the rights of the individual or common population figured much into fascism being that the philosophy is diametrically opposed to Democracy and freedom. The dictator is supporting the Monarchy? Using the above definition- Native people have been victims of fascism for many years.

Very Informative Program - Follow link to listen to CBC recording of show Real player plugin for browser -----> ( copy and paste ) http://forms.real.com/netzip/getrde601.htm...type=ie&type=dl Link to page -----> http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/media/200605/...urrent_sec1.ram

Betsy - the victims.. now just who are the real victims here - the residents of Caledonia ( whom i can understand a little of their angst - going without power for a few days and having to drive a few minutes more around a blockade ) OR the Native people as a whole who have been bullied since 1492? How can you even fathom to compare the US invasion of Afganistan in response to 9/11, to a deathless protest!?!? You are seriously comparing the death of nearly 3000 to a road blockade? To the best of my knowledge no Native group has ever commited an attack such as what happened on that dark day. But feel free to educate me with any credible proof you can provide. All the Native people that I have talked to were sickened just like everyone else about 9/11. The comparison is ludicris but defintely a topic for another thread ( Thank You Temagami *wink* ) Is it VANDALISM or is it TERRORISM? because it cant really be both. ( read KrustyKidd's post carefully ) Held Hostage? One big point which you dont seem to understand is that the transformer was damaged by one or two people only - why should the whole group be penalised for the unsanctioned actions of a few? I hadnt realised the locals were barred from leaving the area? AND the protesters are not asking for a penny from the residents of Caledonia. The answer to this is nothing - which begs the question - Why are they so affected by the protest? They dont gain or lose a thing if the developer builds or not. Driving around a blockade shouldnt give rise to the aggressive response of the local people - I dont undersatnd what they hope to gain by increasing tensions. If the protesters were removed the only thing to be gained is the use of the road - which really isnt a major inconveniece ( an extra few minutes in exchange for people fighting to preserve their rights? too much to ask? ) Betsy - they have been taking this to the government - for ages now. It hasnt done any good because the government could ignore the problem since the whole issue was kept virtually private - the public at large had no access to any information. The protest has provided some of that through media attention - and lo and behold!! Non-Native people suddenly care about whats going on!! So KUDOS to the people who were brave enough to begin the protest, and succesfully bring needed attention to the issue.