Enskat Kenraken Ronkwe

Sorry to offend your sensibilites Krusty ( joke ) Im new too

Im sorry your Husband feels shame - he shouldnt. Quote " And he feels shame right now, but he is also happy he takes after his mothers side physically, because its tough going around here right now.. " So hes happy that he doesnt outwardly appear Native? Im sorry he feels that way. If your neighbours would harrass someone because he appears to be Native - that is racism and the police should deal with that situation. What a few people have been trying to hammer home is the fact the dispute is not Native vs Residents of Caledonia. The reason the protesters are there now is because the government froze all development on disputed lands but then somehow the developer obtained permission and began to build - contrary to the agreement. I think you may have missed the point i was trying to make in regards to the transformer incident. We agree that some action should be taken BUT only against those with hands-on involvement - you cant white-wash everyone because of one or two people. If you feel better calling the perpetrators of specific actions terrorist thats fine, im not going to argue over semantics with you - but you cannot blanket a whole people with that word. Before the power outage resulting in your foodstuff being spoiled, and having to drive around the blockade - What was the biggest inconvienience upon the people of Caledonia? I totally agree that the perpetrators need to be punished. Thats what the residents here want. We want peace and we want our lives back. I am not a racist. A little background Info, my hubbys father was from six nations his mother not,however he is disappointed in the carrys-on. And he feels shame right now, but he is also happy he takes after his mothers side physically, because its tough going around here right now. Also since my hubby is part native that means my children and grandbaby are too. Its not the principal WHO is causing upheaval, it is THAT it is Being done by Terrorists

If you must label the destruction of the transformer as terrorism - fine, but apprehend and prosecute the INDIVIDUALS that did it!!! Just because a person or a select few did this does not mean their actions were endorsed, supported or condoned by anyone at the protest site. Clan Mothers are there there, and they rule the roost so to speak. and they would NEVER ask for something like that to be done Quote " The perpetrators of crime, no matter what ethnic background, must be held accountable under the law " If youre talking about assault, uttering threats etc - both sides have done this and the police have wisely curbed their response to both parties here. If not that?, What rule of LAW are you speaking about? Lets go after the individuls responsible and not use this as a springboard to have peaceful protestors removed. You bring up Ipperwash a sad display of overuse of force - deadly force. Is this what you want to see happen? The incident at Ipperwash has a few distinct differences in comparison to Caledonia ---> During World War II, in 1942, the Canadian Army evacuated the residents of Stoney Point [see Map 1 : Ipperwash] and Kettle Point [see Map 1 : Ipperwash] in order to set up a temporary military training camp. For this, the Chippewas received approximately $50,000 in compensation. When representatives of the Assembly of First Nations (AFN) undertook steps to return to their reserve in 1945, The Canadian government refused to leave the site. In 1981 it paid out an additional $2.5 million in compensation and interest, and agreed to hand over the Chippewas land when it was not longer of use for military purposes. Four years later, the Natives were granted permission to hunt and fish on the territory during hunting and fishing seasons decreed by the provincial government. At the same time, the Band Council was given a promise that the military use of the Ipperwash camp would be reviewed every four years. Despite that promise, the camp remained in government hands. In May 1993, groups of Natives came to settle on the land. In February the following year, the government announced that it wanted to negotiate the return of the Ipperwash camp to the First Nations people. After a confrontation with the Chippewas, the military personnel left the base. A few months later, a group of Natives occupied Ipperwash Provincial Park [see Map 1 : Ipperwash] to protect and reclaim a sacred burial ground. One Chippewas member, Anthony (Dudley) George, was shot by Ontario provincial police and died that night. In case you missed it -- the government agreed to return the land back to the original owners after the military left - but instead they make it into a provincial park. Some people posting here bring up the argument that since the Haldimand Treaty was signed 200 plus years ago it somehow doesnt apply - The Ipperwash agreement is RECENT HISTORY with the same result Why didnt our government honour the agreement they themselves wrote? The dark history of the govenrnment disrespecting the agreements it enters into with Native People continues..... I agree with you that it is a form terrorism. A normally peaceful town has been burning through tires, a van and bridges set on fire, and a road was damaged Looting the Henco office on April 20 not mention rocks thrown from by-pass bridge, and vandalizing hydro transfofrmers. from the caledonia.a website Dear Sir, I guess it is fair to say the Rule of Law does not apply in native land disputes. How can the McGuinty government justify selective policing based on race? What happened to the demonstrators in Burlington compared to the activities of the native protestors in Caledonia is shameful. The McGuinty government and the OPP are discriminatory and racist against innocent citizens of this province. The perpetrators of crime, no matter what ethnic background, must be held accountable under the law, irregardless of the circumstances that prompted the offense. Society cannot withstand selective policing based on an accident of birth. The whole fabric of the law is being unraveled as we sit back and watch the chaos at Caledonia. Ipperwash has been under this policy for over a decade. Enough is Enough. Respectfully Submitted, Ipperwash Beach, Lambton Shores Ont.

I didnt realise they had a nuclear device at the camp!! ( allow me to add a second GUFAW!! lol ) I didnt realise ............ We have Warriors from the camp conducting raids into Caledonia............? If so i hadnt heard lol using Biological weapons..............? using Chemical Weapons..............? Cyber Terrorism ..............? Does this count? LOL Domestic Terrorism..........? havnt heard any bombs or guns go off Eco Terrorism...................? Uhm no. International Terrorism......? I guess they can stick anybody with this from the US that came for support State sponsered Terrorism....? does this apply to Governments who have tried to erode rights they themselves agreed to?

I liked the one with the Natalie Portman video too! Thanks for the post!

politika please read post i sent to Geoffry and apply it to yourself as well politika says " ....... give you the benifit of the doubt that most murders are white just like most indians are the ones whining to our government to give them more money, your people have no work ethic at all. " Actually, I dont see any of that. What I do see are hard working Native people - working hard to support families, holding executive positions, owning and running successful enterprises. I guess if you drove through Six Nations youd be wondering where all the tee-pee are? LOL

You seem talk out of both sides of your mouth im afraid. You'll find my language directed at social patterns in various legal arrangements. I never use racist comments. Using the legal word 'Indian' means I'm talking about those with Indian status in Canada, not First Immigrant populations as a race. I have no belief that any one race is substandard compared to another, though many segements of our population, white, black, blue, purple, Indian, are substandard and need improvement in many ways. You won't find me calling all first immigrants drunks or criminals or things like that. You will find me calling things as they are, like a drunken protestor attacking a cop or a council of chiefs that support criminal actions (leadership represents a group, if 5 or 6 Hell's Angels openly promoted illegal activity, the organization would be quickly legally dismantled). I have no problems with the so called "Natives" as an ethnic group. I have major issues with their superior status in front of our courts and in our schools and in the workplace. I have major issues with the amount of money we are spending on welfare with no results. These are legitimate concerns I have. Some others might have sunk to that level where they spoke with racial slurs, but I haven't, and I didn't appreciate previous posters saying I was likely mentally defective and disgusting.

Posted by Geoffrey : I will not respond to any further attacks on my character and I've reported your posts to the forum owner in hope that disciplinary action is taken. ---------------------------- What about the slurs and stereotypes against Natives in general proliferating this forum? Will those posts be dealt with as well? Id like to see this forum free from all derogatory language period - just debate but i wont hold my breath - it doesnt seem that a peaceful or civil dialogue is the aim of the majority of the people on here.

Laughs out Loud - You only want to talk to someone who will agre with everything you say. and if you think im irrational, unknowledgeable and immature becaue i dont blow sunshine up your ass ---- Im OK with that!!!!! * HUGE SMILE * some things we can agree upon some things we cant - what is totally true is that you become abusive when people dont agree wiht your view point - but by all means find someone of like mind to volley posts with. And BTW it was the Haldimand Treaty of 1784 which outlines the land grant - not Simcoe like you said. SO perhaps its YOU who need to brush up on his knowledge. Heres the link ----> http://www.mohawkchapel.ca/history.html Regarding the Simcoe Treaty here are the basic details --- 22 May 1798 [Penetanguishene Harbour] Lieutenant-Governor Simcoe, after visiting the Georgian Bay area in 1793, was interested in establishing a harbour at present-day Penetanguishene. At this location, he wished to build a British military naval presence on Lake Huron. Negotiations with the Chippewas of the Lake Simcoe-Matchedash Bay were quickly initiated. On May 19, 1795, Simcoe met with the Chippewas at York, where they agreed to "relinquish the northern tip of the peninsula at Penetanguishene, including the island in Penetanguishene Harbour, in return for goods valued at 101 pounds in Quebec currency." The formal treaty was signed 22 May 1798, after Simcoe had left Canada. And yes no legal document with questionable wording is beyond argument - this treaty is VERY clear. What laws have they broken? assaults have occured on both sides - most beginning with racial slurs coming from the Caledonia side. other than those occurances what laws have they broken? Regarding your biggoted comment about natives on welfare.... I dont know a single native on welfare they all work - and work hard to support ther families. Im goign to assume there are some familes that need welfare but no more than families off the reserve - if youre going to compare by per capita ill wager the numbers come out near even with non-native familes Im the one saying we need to find a peacable solution without race entering into - it seems that is the cornerstone of your viewpoint becasue you cant make a single post wihtout saying something derogatory to someone - so whos shallow? and callow? As far as respect goes - if thats what you seek try showing a little yourself. ( the respect you give people before earning true respect is called courtesy ) If you dont respect yourself you will never be able to give it. What i do respect is the centuries of discrimination and segregation the Native peoples have endured. Hypothetically speaking - If all the land from the Haldimand Treaty were returned what do you honestly think would happen? I realise convincing you is a lost cause, but if one person read this and actually finds out for themselves what happened way back when...... in my books thats a GOOD thing. Have a nice Life. 0--------------------- How do you know some of them weren't swindled out of their lands? Of course, it's much more profitable to steal from those who have a lot of land, like the natives. I don't know all the details of the Haldimand treaty, not its real name, or the Simcoe Treaty, which is, I believe. I have looked, but there does not appear to be any unbiased, legitimate, knowledgeable site out there with sufficient information to make a decision. Some years passed between when Haldimand made the deal and when it was ratified by Simcoe, and the amount of land was greatly reduced when the maps were drawn. Swindle? Correction? Misunderstanding? Dunno. There also seems to be evidence the natives gave up much of the land for sale in 1841. Were they properly paid? Were they swindled? Dunno. Have natives been swindled out of their land in the past? Unquestionably. Anyone with valuable posessions but no real degree of sophistication, knowledge and education is prey to those who want to take it from them. That's always the way it's been. That's the way it still is. That's the way it will likely always be. Did that happen in this case? Dunno. Should we make some kind of correction all these years later if it did? Yes, I think so. I don't think making them all billionnaires is an option, though. Oh please. No legal document is ever beyond interpretation, especially one written a couple of centuries ago. And it's more complicated than that, too, as there was definitely agreement at various times, by various chiefs to sell some of that land. So all of those agreements have to be entered into discussion, too, with all the interpretations possible by all the lawyers concerned. The land in question, as I understand it, was sold to some settler a hundred and fifty years ago for about 50 pounds stirling. Why are we still arguing about it now? People aren't afraid of natives. They simply don't like those who break the law. And they get angry when the police stand around and watch because those breaking the law are natives. That's the only racial element to that. Canadians have a reflex dislike of people being treated differently because of their race. They don't like that natives get treated differently than others, and no damnfool legal document from a century back is going to change that feeling. If you really think the native communities would be satisfied with just the amount of money they get now you're not paying attention. Besides, you can't be an independant nation while living on welfare. I think in order to have a rational debate I'd need someone rational, and knowledgeable, and mature. You appear to be none of those things. Shallow and callow just don't cut it around here, respect-wise. Which is why you're convincing no one.

FYI Argus my background has Irish, Scottish and Native in it. The first and most important argument is that the Haldimand Treaty granted the land rights for loyal miitary service - and through all this time the government has not lived up to the word of this agreement. Both Native and displaced white soldiers were granted the same deal - how do you rationalize them not having their land taked from them as well? I expect vey few people commenting in this section of the board to sympathise with the Native people - most just say suck it up and move on - or you lost the land in spoils of war - or that they uinderstand a treaty was signed but that was ancient history - uhmm NO! A signed legal document is just that, and is still binding regardless of the fact that a previous administration signed it - the burden of proof should be on the government to prove that the land was given away or sold - try and read a copy of the wording of the document - it is quite clear that the land in ite entirety was given to the Natives of Six Nations What is everyone so afraid of? That they will win their legally based court case?( another FYI Argus - this isnt the first legal proceding initiated by Six Nations people - do Your research ) What is the basis of this fear the residents have, if not entirely racially based? Id honestly like to know. The biggest change would be where your tax dollars would go - to the government or to support the newly created municipality talking with a few of you bigots on here is only further cementing my support of the occupation becasue you are obviously not interested in rational debate - youre only here to create friction and incite further distrust. The local people are fearing the change that may happen but by opening up a mutually respectful dialogue may do wonders to allay your worries. Try asking what they seek to gain for starters.

In a nutshell, the natives sold the land 1841, no question there, but one faction disagreed with sale; and for this we have to put up with illegal barricades, sabotage and violence. >>> Provide me proof of this - id love to read it becsue its not inline with my own personal research By the way, I sure hope that the gov't compensates the Caledonians for their loss of work over the hydro sabotage - and rightly deducts it from payments to natives. >>> Lots of public protests inconvenience people and they dont have to reimburse anyone - Whjy SHould the Native poele be any diffenet? Speaking of the gov't where is McGuinty, its about time he stepped in and put a stop to these illegal activities, once and for all. >>> I agree - lets start with getting rid of the locals uttering threats!

Like you said - YOU WERE NOT THERE - but you are awfully trusting of what is broadcast over the tv ever hear of selective editing Argus? Its what makes good TV....... and proliferates the stereotyping you and your brotheres on here spout. Using racial slurs and stereotypes of Native people only proves to me that the issue for you is purely racial. You use these words becasue you have no other recourse - all the Native people i know just laugh at you when you throw insults. Racism is pointless , it goes nowhere and is ultimately self defeating. If people like you put more effort into understanding the plight of your NEIGHBOURS instead of trying to incite, this situation wouldnt exist or at least not the point where violence erupted. You rely on the tv for your information - try talking to the people directly and give the same amount of respect you expect to recieve - the recpetion you get may surprise you. If you speak with respect you will get it back - if you provide an intelligent argument thats what youll get in return. From all accounts ive heard and seen - the people of the protest are being self - defensive - meaning they arnt the ones picking the fight wiht the locals. They have no beef wiht the local residents unless they make it that way.

Like you said - YOU WERE NOT THERE - but you are awfully trusting of what is broadcast over the tv ever hear of selective editing Argus? Its what makes good TV....... and proliferates the stereotyping you and your brotheres on here spout. Using racial slurs and stereotypes of Native people only proves to me that the issue for you is purely racial. You use these words becasue you have no other recourse - all the Native people i know just laugh at you when you throw insults. Racism is pointless , it goes nowhere and is ultimately self defeating. If people like you put more effort into understanding the plight of your NEIGHBOURS instead of trying to incite, this situation wouldnt exist or at least not the point where violence erupted. You rely on the tv for your information - try talking to the people directly and give the same amount of respect you expect to recieve - the recpetion you get may surprise you. If you speak with respect you will get it back - if you provide an intelligent argument thats what youll get in return. From all accounts ive heard and seen - the people of the protest are being self - defensive - meaning they arnt the ones picking the fight wiht the locals. They have no beef wiht the local residents unless they make it that way.

You conveiniently skirt around the fact that despite having their land stolen from them militarily or otherwise they were granted by the crown the tract of land for loyal military service - signed and sealed in the Haldimand Treaty - 6 miles either side of the grand from source to head. And there is no proof that they EVER gave that up - what is happening is that the establishment keeps ignoring the claims in hopes that they will just go away. Why should they?!? The Canadian people need to understand that everything has been taken away from the Native people - and im sorry but getting tax off some very limited items in a store and being able to buy gasoline at a discount but only on the reserve just doesnt cut it. The healthcare and education support from the government was a step in the right direction but it cant come close to rplacing a legacy that could have been ----------------------- War. War is how nations are made, my friend. The history of the world is bathed in blood, and the lines were etched though battle. As a previous poster has said, should I be able to return to Scotland and tell the British to get out of our land? Did you think that the nations and empires of the earth were made with handshakes and tea? While this may be unpleasant - its the truth. When it comes down to it, the conquerors of history had military advantages that resulted in their victory. That does'nt make it right - but it is the way of history. No it doesnt make it right - and a select few of us would like to see justice done by honouring agreements made. ----------------------- What does the fact that the europeans came here and took land by force have anything whatsoever with the fact that a signed and sealed document made by our governent is till not being honoured??? ------------------------ The groups involved in the incident in Caledonia are, as I understand, involved in a legal matter currently. Could they not have awaited the decision of the court? Or were they sure to lose, and are using this stunt in an attempt to influence the decision politically? ------------------------- The Natives are there primarilty so that the public can learn whats going on throught the media - otherwise history would just repeat itself with shady government machinations behind closed doors that the Canadian people will never really know about till 200 years after the fact. I really think most Canadians think the fact the land was stolen and that the words of a signed agreement are not being honoured to be disgusting. If the previous treaties were not honoured how do you expect themn to trust us? Please - dont expect us to sit on our hands while you spit on the law. What LAW - be specific if you can....... I dont think they are spitting on any law - they are standing up for their rights. They are having a peaceful protest and doing far less than a striking union would. ___ Your question: how would I feel were the government to seize my land? I would by unhappy about it, no doubt. Of course my unhappiness would be allayed somewhat if I were to be compensated for the land - you know, given something in return. In fact, government land seizures happen all the time. In the United States, this process is called Eminent Domain and is used to seize lands help by private owners intended for public use. For instance, parklands, making a highway, etc. They are paid 'fair market value' for the land, and then the title is seized. While this is hardly fair, it is necessary, and if I am compensated fairly, I bear no ill will to the government. I can simply go purchase land somewhere else with the money I received, no? ------------------------------ What compensation have they received? WAKE UP!!!! Why do you think they are out there? This land is not being used to support any public infrastructure - so your point is moot. I am kind of surprised the residents of Caledonia dont realise they are not the opponents of the protest - the developer is - and he/she is only concerned with you guessed it... MONEY Any Caledonia residents benefiting financially from the development? NO? Whats that they say about taking lemons and making lemonade? They have been doing just that - they had their country stolen from them - despite this they fought along side us ( and still do!!!!!! ) and in return were given a large peice of land to call their own - instead they are forced onto small peices of land and basically told to shut up and like it - or as you put it " make lemonade " You make your lemonade after your people have been segregated, discriminated, stereotyped and pigeon holed to death. If this happens to you and yours I want to see you smile while you sip that lemonade. Its Easy to smile when you hold all the cards. The bottom line for me is that an agreement was reached long ago and the Native people have waited this long for the governemt to honour their word. I am not really surprised by the government on this, but i have to believe that the common Canadian knowing the truth about the history would be truely shocked and feel that the agreement should be honoured. What really scares and disgusts me is that some of the posters on here - ( I believe ) are confrontational only because of a difference in race. Is it possible for people to post on here without the usual and unfortunately EXPECTED racial slurs ???? The Local residents have no real personal stake in this - and beside haveing to drive around the protest site to get to work they are not being inconvienienced What do you think about the Caledonia residents putting up their own barricade when the original one was brought down as a gesture of goodwill - the only reason i can think of for them to do this was to tarnish and ruin a potentially peace bringing gesture - if cooler heads prevailed and they just let the road stay open some bridges may have been built

Firstly, I am white and I support the action taken in Caledonia. What gave the Colonial powers the right to arrive here - put up their flags and suddenly ownership of the land was instantaneously transferred from the people who have undeniably occupied it for countless years. I have read a post regarding the time frame of the land disputes. Some people feel since it happened centuries ago those injustices are unimportnat or have been somehow swept away because our ancestors perpetrated them. ( no one wants to be responsible for the sins of the father ). The Native people have been in a fight for their land and culture since the europeans landed. Nothing can erase the fact that europeans came here and claimed ownership of all that they saw - there was no sale, no agreement - but they saw fit to deal the land back to the people who rightfully owned it in the first place via treaty. And sadly even these treaties are not being fully honoured. The Native people as a whole have been slowly pushed back by european government up to the present day. And they have suffered in virtual silence because no one was told the truth, the whole story was subverted in the name of colonial expansion ( more accurately european coffers - If there were no resources to exploit for profit - they would not have come ) The media attention that these so called protesters generate is a good thing! I hope it spurs people to learn the truth and to investigate the facts - then put yourself in their shoes. I wish the government would live up to the promises made on paper ( the many treaties ) instead of ignoring what their predecessors signed and guaranteed in honour. ------------ Isnt it the law that states you have to prove you paid for something in order to prove ownership? The fact that Native peoples were here first isnt in dispute - so therefore the burden of proof should fall onto the government to prove they owned the land in order to sell/give it away to european settlers. If i sell something that isnt mine to sell is that a legal transaction? Can i sell or give away my neighbours home? Regarding, The Brant Treaty - It clearly states that 6 miles from either side of the grand river and ( if i remember correctly ) that tract of land would run from beginning to end of the river - one heck of a huge peice of land. From what I understand Joseph Brant leased sections of this land for a set period of time. Upon which no payments were made, and no one left at the termination of the lease. Can the powers that be provide proof of ANY payment on this lease? and even then prove the lease was extended indefintely or " surrendered " as they put it. I think the spirit of the Caledonia agreement was to ALLOW a road to be built. NOT to give up any rights to that land ( AND the surrounding land around the road ) This country is filled with this same story of land being wrangled ( through legal means ) out of Native hands. I will speak for myself in saying that I would have no problem living within the borders stated in the original treaty and paying taxes to this new Six Nations, not to the government of Canada. I think ive gone on long enough - but in closing, id like to put forth a scenario .... You are the owner of a 100 acre farm - one day the government knocks on your door to inform you that your land has been seized - your property now consists of 1 acre surrounding your house - you dont get a say or a cent from the rest of the land you used to live on. Question is - How would you feel about that? And what could you do about it?