Rue

Got to; http://www.thealo.com/mfl/Trash.asp These guys below started their own Muslim Football League! Radwan AbdulRazzak Ammar Alo Mohammed Alo Noure Alo Sinan Alo Moumen Asbahi Ramez Habbal Yusef Hai Abdullah Haydar Omar Haydar Mohammed Idlibi Ahmad Issawi Atif Irfan Mohammed Jondy Muaz Jondy Omar Khorfan Franki Kulweki Layth Malood Khudr Mouslmani Zubair Munshey Hesham Mustafa Waleed Nassar Muhsen Nasir Shahab Quraishi Shariq Quriashi Muaz Rabah Sabri Sabri Zubair Sarmast Hassan Shahid Ghazwan Shukairy Muaz Shwedhi Mundir Shwedhi Mohammed Shwedhi Hazem Tabbaa I am arranging an exhibition match with the CFL* *no no don't be silly I mean the Circumsized Football Leage

But that's not all folks; http://www.andiescandies.com/catalog1.html Chocolate Ten Commandments These sacred tablets are delicious to eat! Wrapped in plastic, available with personalized ribbon. Certified Kosher. $3.60 each, ribbon $0.80 additional. AND; http://www.judaicaworldwide.com/judaica.as...ze=&pgnum=5 Packers Suede Kippah #Packers Kippah Handpainted Suede Packers Kippah. Size: Approx: 6" in diameter. Price: $18.00 BUT THERE IS MORE! right now on E-Bay!!! COLLECTABLE JESUS IS LORD JEHEMIALI 29.1 LOGO GOLF BALL Item number: 220142888392 Starting bid £0.99 Place Bid >

Buffy Dearest you want Jesus footballs, no problem go to; http://www.orientaltrading.com/application...sus%20Footballs BUILD WITH JESUS" FOOTBALLSBACK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Build With Jesus" Footballs. Make a touchdown with these 4 1/2" vinyl foam-filled footballs. Build your faith while building muscles at your next V.B.S. team game! These vibrant balls spiral with spiritual appeal! Each colorful pigskin is imprinted with a picture of Jesus and the statement, "Build With Jesus You May Also Like: “SMILE! JESUS LOVES YOU!” KICK BALLS $7.95 also available at; http://www.calibex.com/serv/calibex2/buyer...DID=11115492511 LOOK AND YE SHALL BE OFFENDED AT MOST ANYTHING OTHER THEN THINE OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS. The Prophet Rude, August 2007

Once again Buffy and her conspiracy theories and deliberate plots to insult. Yes I followed up on Buffy's theory and look what I found (clearly the work of other evil people-probably people who are friends with Barbra Stresidan); http://www.catholicsupply.com/christmas/football.html BEST SELLER! Football Jesus Sports Statue To remind children that Jesus is with them always. A contemporary statue for today's youth. Jesus is with us in everything we do, watching over us & involved in all of our acts & activities. Resin. Approx. 6" tall. As seen on The Conan O'Brien Show! FOOTBALL (Item #34428) $20.00 click on image on larger view New! Jesus Sports Frames To remind children that Jesus is with them always. A contemporary statue for today's youth. Jesus is with us in everything we do, watching over us & involved in all of our acts & activities. Resin. Base approx. 7" wide x 4.5" tall; holds 4x6 photo. FOOTBALL (Item #34468) $12.95 or http://www.catholicshopper.com/products/in...rt_statues.html Jesus Inspirational Sport Statues Handpainted resin statues on a solid wood base are the perfect gift for every young Catholic athlete. These statues portray Jesus actively participating with boys and girls in a variety of sports. A wonderful way to reinforce Jesus "as friend" in everyday activities. Sizes vary from 4 3/4 to 6 1/2 inches. Many customers have requested these Jesus Sport Statues depicting children other than Caucasian and playing other sports; we have expressed these requests to manufacturers and importers. When and if other statues are available, CatholicShopper.com will carry them. This page shows the following Jesus Sport Statues: Baseball, Football, Soccer. For Basketball and other versions of baseball, football, hockey and soccer, click picture of the five statues at the bottom of page. The statues on this page now include a brass nameplate, "Jesus Is My Coach." Sport Statue - quick order $22.95 If you know the statue you want and don't need to view the graphic - simply select your subject from the drop down menu. 15 subjects to choose from. or http://heavenlyjerseys.com/Merchant2/merch...gory_Code=Jesus Jesus Jerseys Adult Jesus Football Jersey Code: 1001 Price: $39.95 Quantity in Basket: none Youth Jesus Football Jersey Code: 1002 Price: $29.95 Quantity in Basket: none Adult Jesus Baseball Jersey Code: 1003 Price: $39.95 Quantity in Basket: none Youth Jesus Baseball Jersey Code: 1004 Price: $29.95 Quantity in Basket: none Adult Jesus Basketball Jersey Code: 1005 Price: $39.95 Quantity in Basket: none Youth Jesus Basketball Jersey Code: 1006 Price: $29.95 Quantity in Basket: none

She married a Jewish guy called Rubin. See Rube, Rubin. Its like too close for comfort. Lol. I find her very interesting to listen to. I have found her pretty much critical of everyone on all sides consistently. I can't say I have found her pro American, or pro anything. Some accuse her of being a Clinton-Kennedy sympathizer. I am not quite so sure if that is a fair thing to say but then I like her and so did John F. Kennedy Jr.

LOL!!!! Let's call it a hunch but I don't think he's worried about any criticism of Judaism. But you made my day. That was funny.

I hear you and I think if Green goes mainstream which it certainly has-(Liberal in Canada, Democrat in the US) it will necessarily be compromised and die out. It is inconceivable to me the Democratic Party in the US which would like people to believe it is the home for Greenies could be as this same party depends heavily on union support and unions are diametrically opposed to any green concepts since they will cause losses in jobs. In Canada, Stephanie Dion can cloak himself all he wants in Greenisms, but he fools no one. LIberal regimes ahev been huge polluters whether its federally or provincially.

Actually Dancedude I know of few socialist regimes that really cared about the environment. Most were heavily dependent on unions for support and unions are quite reactionary to environmental concepts. I actually found many Green Party economic policies pro small business and free enterprise-if anything libertarian. I do concur however with your comments about their original supporters being a cross section of leftists and not rightists but that changed very fast as it went mainstream. LOL, I doubt Greens dreamed nostalgically about the Soviets. Greenpeace had its problems with the Soviet Union as much as it did France, the US, etc. Nuclear subs were nuclear subs to the Greens. They went after Soviet nuclear subs or whalers as hard as they did Japanese ones, etc. and the KGB had its run ins with Greenpeace as did its navy. Be fair, the Greens got on everyone's nerves equally. They were hardly pro any socialist regime that polluted and still aren't. You want to stereotype Greens, don't think of them as Jack Layton supporters. I would suspect a more accurate slur would be guilt ridden well to do baby boomers. I am a Green wannabee only I am not rich enough to afford a hybrid yet or cool enough to hang with Leo DeCapprio and Pork-Al Gore and I have tried to sleep with Cameron Diaz but she won't answer my phone calls. Pork-Al is a good stereotyoe of today's Greens-a mix of people from all political beliefs brought together by feelings of guilt for being wealthy and driving suv's but not wanting to change their lifestyle so looking for something to make them feel good so they can keep driving their suv's. Hybrid that suv and all will be well er so it goes. But still, its a start and as easy as it ease to take shots at Pork Al or Leo at least they are getting people to pay attention and question their way of life and that is important. Regards, the guy* who wants to sleep with Cameron Diaz and is up on his Green stuff in case it impresses her *yah right, I also have a thing for Jody Foster, like that will happen

I think your willingness to question and challenge and seek answers makes you a good example for others. But then Mel says I am a murderer so what the f..ck do I know. Never question your spirituality simply because you have the integrity to question and exercise your free will! That is admirable so there.

Funny Buffy but you seem to call him a bigot not because he engages in negative generalizations but simply because you disagree with the negative generalizations. You again miss the point. Negative generalizations of ANYONE is equally as problematic and this is why if JBG engages in negative gerenalizations they are questionable and precisely why your positiuons are as equally as questionable. Until you stop making negative generalizations about Jews and Israelis you are no better then JBG for doing the same bout Muslims in reverse. Either way it is not helpful only don't you come on this post and now try claim you are righteous. Its like someone with bad breath telling another they have body odour. By the way your naive simplistic black and white analysis of Israel getting funding but the PA not getting funding is completely wrong. Go back and read how much money the PA has received and what it has done with it before you make such simplistic and inaccurate comments. The PA has received many billions of dollars of aid and until you bother to find out the facts instead of posing subjective stereotypical preconceptions as facts, it will keep soaring over that righteous head of yours. You might also want to try find out who supplies what to who in the Middle East. No its not the black and white formula you present nor has it ever been that simple. But then do you care about facts at all?

I must agree with you Figleaf. The problem with using history to make negative generalizations about an entire people is that it incites hatred of the entire people. I think in many debates I blast you, but fair is fair with this comment. Prejudice is prejudice and its exactly why I am not comfortable with this thread at all and Riverwind knows spiritually I can not do anything but listen to his words and try tell myself, as a Jew, if I am to genuinely be a good Jew, I can not hate Muslims or allow my knowledge of their history or my perceptions to incite me into fearing and therefore hating them. That spiritual point in Riverwind's words have not missed me. My only disagreement with Riverwind is this. I do believe that a certain element of Muslims and I really do not know what size they are and just who they really speak for, but I fear it only takes a minority of them to be able to control a larger majority of Muslims for the simple reason that the Muslim world by far is still emerging and the vast majority of its peoples still do not read and so depend on their mullahs to explain the koran for them. We forget that until the majority of Muslims learn to read and write, they can not on an individual level be able to develop critical thought. So without generalizing in a negative way, I think froma purely anthropological point of view, Muslim society is still evry young and probably at a puritanical stage of development no different then when Christians were burning non believers at the stake. That said the moderate Muslims or those Muslims who have learned to read, write and engage in the so called Western world, are people we need to forge alliances with if we are to try get the rest of the Muslim world to embrace critical thought and say less fundamental or orthodox methods of thought and allow more individuality. Yes at the preent time there is an element of facism in certain Muslim thinking. As a Jew of course it frightens me because when I read it and see it on Muslim t.v. and then echoed by so called anti-Zionists, I feel existential anghst. My radar of survival goes off thinking no its not just an isolated problem in the Middle East, it is spreading and we are all members of this planet and what effects one of us elsewhere effects us here as well. I guess what I am saying is I am not as isolationist in my perceptions as perhaps Riverwind is nor do I think its realistic to think certain fundamentalists of the Muslim faith are harmless and can be left alone. I do concede though that we can't possibly impose our values on others. They have to come to them on their own free will. If you try force it on people you get Iraqs. You can't take people who have never lived in what we think is democracy, march into their country, completely ignore their culture, destroy their infrastructure, award rebuilding contracts to everyone but Iraqis, leave them sitting without electricity, water or jobs for years while their country is over-run by private security guards protecting contractors and who far outnumber the US or British military presence and expect them to embrace you simply because you killed Sadam. The Americans got rid of Sadam but have brought no vision. The struggle we Jews have with this world and particularly Muslims or myself now with Riverwind, is to inunciate our fears in a way Riverwind can understand but in a way that also promotes what we think a positive future vision could be for all people. I myself do not think there can be a comprehensive peace plan in the Middle East until Christians, Jews and Muslims, stop trying to define themselves in righteous terms and simply see themselves as guests on the planet whose actions can positively or negatively effect each other and so must learn to find a way to coexist and not violate the rules of the planet which say no one life form can take precedent over another or is sueprior to another. Sounds flaky but it works like this-you read anyone's history whether it be Muslim, Jewish, Christian, etc., there will be stories of people in the name of their creator or God killing others. Such history doesn't make us distinct, it makes as common and its precisely why we need to get over this pretension we are different. Is it realistic to think Muslim extremists can be dialogued with no. I think certain Muslim extremists must be contained and if need be, killed to prevent them from killing. That said, I think it is just as important we find away to embrace those willing to engage in peaceful discussion to find alternatives to war and terror and that means stop using our religions or ethnic identities to look for reasons of difference and distrust and use them to find things in common that we can use to build networks of trust. No I do not think people like Martin Luther King or Yithak Rabin or Anwar Sadat or Sitting Bull died in vain. You want to deal with this-simple-set up common grass roots projects whereby Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc., work together building sewage systems, roads, schools, community centres, water pipelines and can go to school together.

How long ago was it Jean (Rambo) Chretien pounced on that pathetic person in the crowd and placed a choke hold on him? and to think Chretien means Christian in French. I wouldn't say Jean Chretien (John Christian) was acting too brotherly towards his fellow man. As for my former memer of Parliament, Pierre, he had no problems invoking the War Measures Act and imposing a state of siege suspending all right to assembly and freedom of expression. Being "Liberal" or "Conservative" clearly is not the issue and people who try reduce conflicts to such simplistic formulas are kidding themselves. You think Jack Layton wouldn't be the first to use police to put down a demonstration? This is a man who screams bloody murder about medicare and then when he needs a hernia operation has no problem going to the Shuldice private medical clinic to get it done. Do as I say not as I do.

Please why let facts and logic get in the way of these smeers of the police. I am not sure whether I would call them rent-a protesters, but I too would suspect there were only a few shit disturbers in the crowd handing out the rocks and those shit disturbers are the kind that go to every demonstration and live to incite violence in others. I think you give them too much credit calling them anarchists. That would assume they can read and understand political philosophy. I prefer to think of them as people who feel marginalized and losers in society and feel out of control and victimized and powerless so need to compensate by hiding in crowds and displaying their aggression passively through others. To me they are no different then the kind of people who show up for pit bull dog fights. They need to compensate for their feelings of inadequacy through inciting others to maim and be maimed and whether its another human or animal, it makes no difference. I believe the British refer to them as hooligans. I refer to them as passive aggressive manipulative hippocritical cowards. But far be it from me to smeer anyone or judge them.

It is standard operating procedure when managing large demonstrations to plant undercover officers in the crowds. There is nothing sinister about it. Can some of you please stop and think. To prove criminal intent to charge someone with a crime, you need someone to witness someone engaging in violence. By placing police undercover in the crowds, they use them as witnesses to testify as to who started a particular action or actions. In this case the initial denial was nothing sinister. They are trying to preserve if possible their operating procedures. In this case, the police officers in question were not agent provocateurs. They did not throw rocks nor did they engage in violence or counsel anyone to engage in violence. They were plants observing who was leading the crowds and who was telling who to do what. They were given rocks by leaders in the protest groups and that is when their cover was blown because they could not throw the rocks or use them and they realized at that point they had to end their missions otherwise they could be accused of engaging in crimes while observing potential crimes. What is with this need to engage in conspiracies and sensationalize this. Is anyone dumb enough to believe police do not plant undercovers in large crowds witht he potential to be violent? As for this shock by some of you at the notion there are undercover police operations grow up. As for Kuzad's comments, they are a typical of someone being shrill, i.e., emoting disjointed subjective feelings based on his own projected subjective feelings of the world as representing a hostile place to him. The point is if this crowd was not acting violently there is no criminal issue and the undercover officer's whose job is to observe and record. The police are not there because people are expressing their beliefs, they are there in the event while expressing their beliefs people decide to engage in violence which is a crime against all citizens. Their job is simply to record who incited the violence so the incitors can be arrested and charged. There is a group of people in this country who think it is their absolute right to have tantrums. It is not and has never been an absolute right. The right of feredom of assembly and expression is predicated on it not being violent or damaging the property of others. If you don't cross the line and damage the property of others or engage in violence the police do not have any need to do anything but observe and act as crowd marshalls to prevent trampling or helping if someone faints. This is precisely why with legitimate demonstrations, police are welcomed. Legitimate protesters and demonstrators have no problems with any police officer(s) and do not throw rocks at them or engagetresspass. They remain calm, focused and peaceful and the police appreciate that and are careful not to hurt peaceful protesters even if they have to arrest them. Peaceful demonstrators are trained to go limp and not fight and the police have been advised ahead of time by demonstration organizers that is what they will do. They tell the police when and what they will protest and how the law will be symbolically broken. As long as there is no damage to property or violence the police act calmy. The police in such cases do not have to engage in force. No rocks are being thrown and no one is trying to hit them or spit on them or kick them or light them on fire with a molotov cocktail. The problem is when humans form groups, because groups serve as an agent to release inhibitions, all it takes is one or two idiots to get everyone else in the group engaging in violence. You can have demonstrations start off as peaceful with organizers telling their groups to remain calm and peaceful but all it takes is one angry person with his own political agenda to disobey over all instructions to remain peaceful whocan then easily ignite a chain reaction as people panic and the police faced with an oncoming crowd push back and then start using pepper spray, batons, etc. Anyone who comes on this post and wants to suggest the police planted the rocks and were handing them to others and were counseling people to commit crimes, better put up or shut up. because that is not what happened and any idiot knows for three undercover cops to be able to hand out rocks to many people, they would need further support and this would entail a supply line which could not be covered up. The fact is the undercover officers were handed rocks along with many others by the same people now trying to smeer the police. Just as it is wrong to smeer all the demonstrators as violent people it is dead wrong to state simply because the police are undercover it can automatically be inferred their mission is to incite others to commit crimes. It was not. Their mission was to observe and record.By being placed in a position where they were asked to engage in crime, they had to end their mission and blow their cover-no more, no less. As for the idiots who handed out the rocks, they are cowards and that is precisely why they get others to hold the rocks and do their duty work. Lets see the same people now spreading rumours and innuendoes about the police explain how the police would have been able to distribute rocks to a wide group and not compromise their supply line or were able to do such a thing with just 3. Give me 5 minutes with the same people claiming the police were provocating and let's wee what these aqccusers themselves were doing. I can't stand cowards who hide in crowds, hand out rocks and urge others to throw them, then run and hide and lie when they get caught and try blame the police for exactly what they were engaging in and the police were trying to prevent. Those cowards who handed out the rocks and who now try smeer the police fool no one except probably Buffy and Kuzadd and a few other posters who still believe berets are cool and having tantrums is effective. I have no sympathy for someone who does not have the courage to express their convictions peacefully and needs to engage in tantrums. Violent demonstrators are nothing more then people with an inflated sense of privilege. To me a genuine demonstrator must be disciplined, focused, principled, and at all times govern himself or herself with dignity and calm. Everytime someone has a tantrum and tries to suggest this is effective makes a mockery of Marin Luther King, Ghandi and so many others who have changed the world precisely because they chose to use reason over anger and resist people trying to drag them down into a pit of violence. As for Kuzad and Buffy why do you not come out and state it is wrong to smeer police officers as engaging in crime without proof just as it is to do the same to protesters. Why the double standard?

American Woman I can understand you being tired of people making negative generalizations about ALL Americans. Muslims feel the same way when they hear people always refer to Islam as terrorist and violent and comments that seemt o suggest all Muslims are violent. Me as a Jew, I am absolutelty tired of people making negative generalizations about all Jews and then claiming they are only criticizing specific Israeli policies. Let's face it-humans by nature take a world they find chaotic and try give shape and meaning to it by labeling things with definitions and assumptions or categories. Our cognitive processing seems to start off as soon as we come out of the womb processing what we see, hear, feel, perceive in compartments of explanation or categorization. The problem is our minds were also designed to engage in logic and objective analysis and yet we all seem to lapse into subjective name calling, labeling, stereotyping, what-ever you want to call it. The point is, none of us gets upset when the generalizations and assumptions are positive, its when they are negative we get pissed off. Of course you have the right to be tired or annoyed when someone things they can simply assume what you are, what you believe and how you think, simply because you are a Yankee Doodle Dandy. So of course I can understand you being tired with it. It is kind of annoying after awhile. I guess I could tell you things about what annoys me about people who make negative assumptions about me simply because I am Canadian, but Canadians don't do that LOL! We are too polite and just laugh and say Canadian things like "oh don't be silly".... "pish posh"...."hah hah joke's on me.."...and my favourite..."wait before you seperate let me give you a pension for life". Here is my final point. Don't worry. Some of us will still buy you a beer. But it has to be Canadian not that watered down crap your people call beer. ((oops I slurred you sorry) Also please understand many of us have a very serious problem with Gary Bettman and it has caused a lot of group trauma. Hey a country that created Halle Berry, Holly Hunter, Jennifer Lopez, Ralph Nader, Babe Ruth, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy, Harry Truman, Pinball Clemons is o.k. by me.

Really? That Christian calendar confuses me. Sorry.

Probably because that group is npt getting it in the first place and need to stick their face in other people's business. Voyeurism I believe is the word for it. I do not thinkl anyone's personal sexual choices or behaviour is anybody else's business unless it is criminal, i.e., being forced on someone without their consent or on a child. Where and what you do with your wazoo is none of my f..cking business.

Double standard? Get real. You are projecting onto women your own subjective values. Take ownership of them and stop projecting. Instead of making sweeping generalizations about what you think other people think, speak simply for yourself.

Hey wait a second. Now I get it...turn the other cheek...

No its not quackery its you misunderstanding the Jewish religion. Chosen does not refer to anyone being special. or better. Rather then misrepresenting and misunderstanding the concept, go find out what "chosen" really means. See before you go off on tangents about how religions are full of shit, find out what the shit is you think you are criticizing. Speaking about quackery I personally believe all organized religions by their very nature are defective since they are created and promulgated by humans. As for all this talk in this series of postsabout whethr its anotomically correct to stick a piccolo up the Love Canal let's put it this way, in Ottawa when you turn your back and they screw you they call it politics and no one condemns that although we know politics from a moral point of view is questionable. Why the double standard? More to the point, JBG don't you find politicians hard to swallow?

J Globe I hear you and I find your comments interesting. I have found over the years people who try cassify us Jews as all thinking the same about Israel to be for me very annoying and sometimes deliberately anti-semitic but other times, just dumb and not intentional. Here is what I am trying to say. I know conservative Jews who are more sensitive or open minded on certain issues then me, and I consider myself a reform or liberal Jew. I also know some Reform Jews who have beliefs far more rigid then conservatives or even orthodox Jews I know. I think we Jews have to take our time to explain to non Jews what it means to be Jewish. They struggle with it because let's face it being Jewish can be a cultural, ethnic, religious, social, or political concept or a mix thereon and non Jews get quite confused with that. They get quite confused for example with the idea that some people consider themselves Jewish but atheist or some people consider themselves Zionists but are not religious at all. They also don't get that being a believer in Jewish self-determination doesn't mean we don't question Israeli policies. What we have learned though is, since there are those who use the pretense of criticizing Israeli policies to in fact question the right for Jews to be self-determined, we are careful now what we say probably the same reason black people would like to be a lot more frank and candid with the problems in their community but fear doing so may fuel racists. I think being a Jew in Quebec has always been a very complex phenomena. As you know Jews from French speaking Arab countries that moved to Quebec sometimes identified with the seperatists not the federalists. I think you also know that Jews supported Trudeau first and foremost because respected Jewish culture and genuinely respected minorities who strove to achieve and use our brains not just our emotions. He appealed to our intellects but also to our hearts. Jews also applauded Lester Pearson for his humility and peace keeping efforts in the Middle East and around the world. We didn't just support them because they understood what Israel meant to Jews. We respected them because they respected everyone not just Jews. Jews in Quebec have traditionally been federalist because this is the country we owe our loyalty to. In my case, its who my father fought for and who his friends fought for and many died for. It is the country that has allowed me to be the first generation of Jew in my family not to live in a war or pgrom or have to be afraid of the police or government. It is a monumental thing and yet something many take for granted. We Jews in Quebec or elsewhere when we react, sometimes you are right, might over-react. It's possible. I tell you though as honestly as I can for me, I am absolutely exhausted having to explain over and over that the desire for Jews to be self-determined is no different then why Christians or Muslims have done it. I am tired of constantly listening to the same poster(s) engage in generalizations that blur the line between Israeli and Jew and between Israeli policy and Israelis. I am also tired of the double standard. In regards to that politician, for me the key thing was support of Hamas. It ticks me off to no end that anyone would support any terrorist organization for any reason. That is how I interperated his comments. I may be wrong but that is how they came across. To me you want to criticize Israel fine, just apply the same criticism to the other side-be consistent, be fair. But please do not ask me to look the other way on any terrorist group. I can't. We have brave young men dying in Afghanistan precisely because we are against terrorists. I honour their mission and respect it and it makes me proud to be Canadian. They fight and die precisely so I can be free from terror and I will not molly coddle any politician who plays on that. See I may be a progressive liberal on many things, but on that I am not. As much as I disagree with many other Harper policies, because I am one of those Kennedy Democrat Trudeau Liberals, when it comes to foreign policy, I think he has been crystal clear and been a man of integrity particularily on China, Afghanistan, the Middle East. If someone reads his speeches they can see he supports Abbas as much as he does Israel but what he has not been afraid to come out and say he is against is terror or say China's human rights violations. I for one was embarassed with Chretien's behaviour on the foreign stage. He acted like a clown and he made a fool of himself in China.

Bonam I appreciate your integrity on this forum. Thanks.

Betsy I would say this and take it with a grain of salt considering I am a Jew. You and I and many others from a modern perspective know many things about ALL organized religions may be scientifically absurd or defective or the result of misreprsentations or distortions or deviations from what was actually said. We read. We question. We seek answers to contradictions. Ou instincts tell us rigid dogma may not be sincere. So yah on one level I hear you loud and clear and applaud your courage to openly question that which you think needs to be questioned and reformed or reconciled with what you truly believe and strongly applaud you for doing that. To question is to exist. It is the very reason I believe we are created-to exercise individual fere will. (that is only my opinion) On the other hand, I also appreciate you have strong religious beliefs. Why not? The two of course go hand in hand. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't your religion say in the end it is between you and God/Jesus how you care to apply their teachings? So I say, just because you question certain traditions or rituals, doesn't mean you still don't respect them or religion, etc. Its possible to balance the two. That is what you are doing..so I say go for it...question, reform, reconcile, balance. For me when I get into huge debates with alleged Christians or Jews I say-I have no problem with what Jesus or the prophets may have said-I only have problems with humans who are so confident they know what they said. Me I criticize Judaism the exact same reason I do Christianity. I believe both the old and new testaments were rewritten from their original versions by men who edited and re-edited them so I do not take them literally, simply as parables. That is why I say, to me, the Bible is man written. In the end, its what you believe that counts not what some old men wrote down thousands of years ago. In the end how you relate to God/Jesus, etc., is an individual thing you must create and whatever that is, I respect its sanctity because its you its who you are and that is good enough for me. I make no claims to being a righteous or holy man. I am just an ordinary shmuck. But I do know how you choose to believe, is a highly individual and precious thing and I can't imagine not admiring it in you or anyone else. So keep creating your own beliefs to deal with any contradictions you feel. Trust yourself to find the right answers. As for me. I can deal with Mel Gibson. But that movie is just a tad sick for my tastesl.

From an academic perspective I believe Christmas is simply a pagan holiday incorporated into the Christian religion along with numerous other pagan rituals that I would argue bastardized the original Christian faith. But then I believe the trinity and many other concepts in today's Christianity were never part of Christ's teaching or philosophy and were deliberately placed in the Bible after his death by manipulative men seeking to control the masses through the use of organized religious institutions directly contradictory to what Jesus would have preached. From a socio-econonomic perspective I consider Christmas to be a crass, materialistic, pathetic excuse at getting people to spend money on things they do not need and simply being a tool the capitalist economic system has come to depend on to be able to sell and make profit. From a religious perspective I think the extreme focus on materialism and not people misses the very point of the Christian religion. All that said, for millions it is their only opportunity to be with their families. It gives them an opportunity to stop and be with their families. That said it plays a crucial role not just for Christians but all people who can enjoy that time to be with their families so I think its important from that perspective. I also think for Christians who really believe in Christmas and Easter and take it seriously and find it of comfort to them spiritually, to me that is their absolute right and I deeply respect that and would never belittle its importance to them and I deeply respect its meaning to them and I enjoy sharing their holiday with them and seeing it make them happy even though I am not Christian. For those who find Christmas a positive personal experience, I say keep enjoying. For those of us that for academic or other reasons have different beliefs, so what. I can deeply respect another person's religious traditions but not personally agree with them. I do draw the line with one thing though. Listen. This cooked ham thing. Look with due respect. Any kind of meat that requires a hair net bothers me. I mean meat should not require a hair net. Also can we avoid the discussion on Mel Gibson's movie. The other thing is those @#$@^&! Christmas Carols on the radio especially when its Celine Dion, Wayne Newton or Courtney Love singing Christams carols. Puh leeze. We know all three are sluts.

Black Dog I honestly do not think Olmert thought he was pressuring the Lebanese government. I truly believe he thought he was showing Hezbollah he would risk world alienation and unpopularity rather then let Hezbollah think they could hide behind civilians and Israel would not fight back. More to the point Balck Dog there are no rules of war when one of the parties is a terrorist organization that will not follow rules of war. You keep talking as if Hezbollah's initial actions were honourable and legal and simply acts of war. It once again shows you have no clue what it is you are depicting. Hezbollah is not an army. It is a cooperative of middle aged men, many highly educated engineers. They stay together because of their common theocratic extremist beliefs and hatred of and desire to rid Israel. They do not and have never engaged in civilian war. They attack innocent civilians not soldiers and they deliberately use Lebanese as shields and covers and deliberately get them killed. They take great care planning how to expose as many civilians as possible to death. They plan the number of deaths. They know exactly how many civilians will die by shooting a missile from an apartment, or hospital window or school. That is what they want. Stop acting like Rudyard Kipling discussing war over tea. Hezbollah are terrorists. They don't fight conventional war and never will. So talk all you want about how Israel should follow conventional rules of war, but it shows you just don't get it. As for criticism of Olmert, its deserved but for military reasons not because he didn't follow proper rules. In fact he did. Your belief that civilian deaths in aerial war is not conventional is nonsense. It is undesireable, unfortunate, horrible, and tragic but its actually a well known tactic of war. Tell me you think civilians in Lebanon are the first ones to die in a war? You make it sound like Israel is the only nation when faced with anhiliation that has killed civilians in another country it is faced trying to fight the enemy. In this case can you please once and for all understand, Hezbollah disguises itself as civilians. By so doing, it is not a conventional army. It also initiates the attacks on civilians. Hezbollah will never wear an identifiable uniform and simply limit its actions to strikes against the IDF. It never has and never will. The Arab world fought to conventional wars and lost them both and has stated it will never again engage in conventional war. These terrorist cells openly state they will never fight conventional wars. Get over it. THey have.