Rue

Uh yah. Johny Mac as John Wayne, Gary Cooper, Clint Eastwood, etc., etc. You have been watching too many American hero movies. GI Joe, Rambo, etc., etc., been there done that. No he is not a key player and no he has no plan nor any power to give anyone freedom. John McCain has made it clear he is a lacky of the oil empire. The oil empire not John McCain or Clint Eastwood, etc., is going to call the shots when all is said and done and any foreign policy the US will have whether its John Wayne McCain or The Rock Bam Bam Obama will be simply controlled by the addiction oil places the West in. Time for you to watch foreign movies. May I suggest the latest Baliwood movie. Some of the guys look a little greasy with all that palm oil in their hair but the women are cute. Mind you they sing like they sucked in Helium and its wierd- in the middle of this murder scene they suddenly burst out dancing and singing.

Does he keep his birthmark covered or what?

Argus you made some good arguements until you got silly with the above name calling. Oksana is entitled to her opinion just as you and I are ours, and her opinions do not make her foreign riff raff, just another Canadian with an opinion. Me personally I believe she has the total right to argue what she says as a Canadian. I respect it although I respectfully disagree with her. I think it's Israel's fault. Sorry I couldn't resist. To Oksana and anyone else on the pro-Russia side, I do think in this case Putin is showing his true colours. Nothing should surporise anyone. Russia feels Georgia is in their control zone. This is not about caring about Russian citizens-that is a pretense. Its about Russia trying to stop the spread the influence of the West in zones considered strategic to Russia and in particular US led political alliances because we all know what is going on-take a look-its a strategic oil area-Russia is protectingw hat it sees as its oil supplies and strategic zones of control to protect its oil supplies, the US and the Europian Union see Georgia as an opportunity to expand and get more influence over an area they want to control for oil resource reasons. NATO will not fight Russia. Russia was tested by the US and NATO. This was a test to see how strong and ocmmitted Putin is to stopping Western expansion. Its a proxy war that has already started between the West and Russia. Putin has emerged creating a state based on being the next oil superpower. Its clear he is rebuilding the Russian empire by a state run, totalitarian system of economic control between the military and the organized crime mafia that runs his country. Putin seized the opportunity precisely because Bush is a lameduck and the US is crippled from Iraq and Afghanistan and can not continue to think it can be a superpower globally. It can't run all the wars it thinks it can. Is Georgia a democracy. Please. Its a proxy US state. Is it more democratic then Russia? Is the Ukraine? Well if you ask their people who feel liberated from the Russian tyranny of the Soviet era they will say yes in strong loud terms and they do have voting now. But who is kidding who. The former Soviet occupied socialist states that now have freedom, i.e., Ukraine, Bulgaria, Armenia, Georgia, etc., they have many economic problems because no one is really free in terms of being a member of the international monetary fund and world economic system that dictates all economic policies and so ultimately the lifestyles of us all. Bottom line, Russia is a raving hippocrate for saying one thing about Chechnya and doing the exact opposite with Georgia. Russia is doing exactly what it criticizes Israel of. For that matter China is engaging in its Muslim states exactly what it accuses Israel of. Bottom line is-its another bullshit war where ethnic groups are pitted against one another as a pretense or pretext of a larger oil war going on which controls us all. The world will not tell Russia to get lost just as it remains silent over China in Sudan, etc. This is not Israel. No need to engage in moral lectures as to ethnic cleansing, etc. Its not Israel. If anybody had any doubts how weak the U.S. is right now because of Iraq and Afghanistan and how Putin has been laughing at Bush hysterically and ridiculing him for the last 8 years, this is just another example. Putin has given Bush the proverbial finger and there is nothing the lameduck putz can do about it.

Lol no! Good post. Black Dog can handle himself so can you. The bark is worse then the bite. The more I sound yappy the more fun I am having. Not to worry. At least in writing I can't spit all over you in my zeal to emphasize my points. Listen where I disagree with you is in suggesting the birth of Israel was not democratic at all. In whose perspective? See that is the point. The paradign or moral assumptions you and BlackDog make about Israel are based in my opinion on your preconceived conceptions as to a particular moral standard you hold Israel and Jews to that I contend is based on your Christian cultural bias that I doubt you are even aware of but for me seems evident and I will try explain why keeping in mind it sounds personal but it is not, not at all. I am just challenging your vision not your intentions motives. Here is my point. I would argue Israel came about precisely because the Arab world did NOT want to be democratic but instead impose a forced military ultimatum on Jews which was all about being undemocratic and trying to preserve its undemocratic status quo against Jews, i.e., dhimmittude-keeping Jews in their place as second class discriminated citizens in the Middle East and assuring that Muslim theocracy and state remained unchallenged. Your assumotion is based on Jews suddenly showing up and trying to impose themselves. Its based on your misunderstanding of Jewish history and the assumption just showed up unfairly. You assume because Jews are a minority their right to sufferage is not allowed? Somehow because they are a minority if they demand the essence of democracy-national sufferage, simply because they are a minority they are undemocratic? How does that make any sense unless of course you are so bias you can't see the contradiction in that? How xo you twist that around to suggest Jews forming Israel were undemocratic is beyond me. For heaven's sake, they wanted freedom from tyranny and you call that undemocratic? Undemocractic? Undemocratic is what Jews lived through for centuries in the Muslim world living in the apartheid of dhimmitude which prevails to this day and results in the continuing servitude of not just Jews but Bahaiis, Christians, gays, Zoroastreans, Hindus, Buddists and so on. Undemocratic is having all one's possessions seized illegally and having them expelled forcing them to flee to Israel. Tell that to the 900,000 kicked out of Muslim countries and prior to that all the Jews of the Muslim world forced to endure massacres or discrimination and never be allowed to own land and be told that since they are infidel they are to not touch a Muslim, and can not be trusted to tell the truth in court, etc. Undemocratic is being a Jew in Europe and watching country after country refuse to allow you to own land or access public services and be trapped in ghettoes of isolation removed from mainstream society and forced to take on certain jobs because there were no others. 6 million Jews died not because of democracy and you suggest they are undemocratic because after being forcefully exterminated en masse in numbers no other minority was faced with in such a deliberate and systemic manner in such a short period of time they demanded their own country? After having all their property and everything they ever had reason to live for across Eurpe taken from them you want them to do just what? Where were you when the Swiss banks refused to return their money and when the few that did try to return home found their homes occupied by good Christians? Guess democracy for you from your perspective of being in those homes lends you to a different conclusion. I might suggest if you were a Roma you might not have a problem understanding the perspective I am now trying to explain to you. The difference is the Romas don't want a country. That is about it. In your perspective I do not doubt you see Jews as undemocratic for wanting a country. Why not? Was it your people gassed? Was it your home stolen? Was it you expelled and left with no where to go? Was it you listening to Kossaks or drunken swine coming in the night on any given Christian holiday to burn and rape in the name of Jesus? Undemocratic? Yah. Pogroms are democratic. See in my world the legacy of my family is the negative consequence of not being able to be treated democratically. Its a given. That curse never goes away. It is an existential consequence even the most self-loathing of Jews can't hide from by pretending they are Christian or Muslim or what-ever. As much as I love Canada and consider myself until I die a Canadian first and foremost, what you think being a Jew is not an existential reality that if push comes to shove could not make me expendable? Oh wait, the Charter of Rights you say? Thanks. There was one in Germany you know. Likewise in France. Didn't do much good now did it. Say now why not read The Soviet constitution. Guaranteed a lot of freedom as well but memory serves me correctly anyone stupid enough to say they were a Jew ended up in a great deal of trouble. Have Russian and German legacy in that cursed blood of mine you know. As much as I love Canada and all it offers, if you think I am naive enough to assume I am safe tell your story to one of your people. Won't resonate with me for the same reason I don't put mayaonaisse and ham on bagels. You misunderstand and misrepresent why Jews created a country but it doesn't change why Jews did it. We did it to survive. We had no choice. Between the Christian and Muslim worlds we were given no choice. May I suggest your Christian world and Christian religion legacy of world wide genocide and vitimization of heathen peoples does not provide you a credible vantage point from which to suggest to a Jew they are not democratic or seeking universal sufferage. The whole culture of Christianity and its connection to the state apperatuses it chose to use to rule was anything but democratic and its vestiges remain and for any Christian to lecture anyone on morality for the very sins they continue to commit with due respect is just not credible for me. See the only difference between you and we Zionists is we do not hide what we are or the fact that we use the state to protect our nationality. It is precisely the result of you doing it and we having no choice but to respond and do the same if we were to survive. No more. No less. Never once did a Jew who started Israel ever deny the purpose of a Jewish state was to institutionalize in the state organ a perpetual guarantee of survival of Jews. There is nothing undemocratic about that. You Christians have been doing it for centuries. Say now. Did you notice> When Blackdog's people do it, they call it the resurrection of the Ukraine and when his country creates a law of return for Ukraines does blackdog use the same analogies he uses for Israel with the Ukraine? Why do you think that is? There are over 85 countries with laws of return for specific nationalities to assure these national identities survive and yet only when Israel does it, we are told by Blackdog or you its unvecoming or undemocratic. Why do you think that is? Today's Muslim world demands the very things for its people in the West it will not allow non Muslims in the East to have. Why do you think that is? The Muslim collective still demands from Israel that which it will not give its own non Muslims let alone fellow Muslims. Why do you think that is? The only difference with the Jews of Israel is that they upfront with theur purpose. Theyd on't couch it with selectivity and hippocracy and double standards as I suggest you do. I would also suggest if you bother to find out how the Israeli law works you would realize it is in fact in practice democratic and affords far more legal rights to non Jews in Israel then any Christian or Muslim ever gave a Jew in their countries and that Sir is public record. Problem is people like Blackdog when they claim Israel is not living up to its democratic standards ignore all its legal decisions and the implication of its court's decisions particularly in regards to land rights of non Jews in Israel. Easy to say poo poo to Israel when you don't make a point of finding out what its court decisions are saying or realize that unlike the Muslim theocratic world or say now here in Canada where Christianity and the government is still connected thank you very much that Zionism and and the protection of Jews in the Israel state organ does not impose religious or cultural beliefs on non Jews and it is precisely why they have their own family and religious laws and why Muslims have a terrible tendency of beating their wives in Israel but being forgiven by their Muslim family courts. Democracy you say. Right. If you only knew what it means in practice. Undemocratic? As a lawyer I would agree that the land aquisition transfer process which saw absentee lands in Israel from vacated Palestinians go to Jews who settled in Israel through a series of 25 land laws has serious flaws but it is no more flawed then anything your double standard for Christian and Muslim nations have done. What is that I hear, another self-righteous Christian lecturing Jews on stealing land? Right. Oh wait. Is that a Muslim I hear saying land was stolen? Yes the Muslim world where the average Muslim is allowed to own land and is not a serf to some wealthy magnate. Right. Perspective. It can be quite subjective if you are some shmuk from Pakistan imported to Dubai or Saudi Arabia to be cheap slave labourer. Right. ask the Fillipina domestic slaves what their land rights are. As for Muslims and their Empire, do you think even one nation is in the position to discuss morality and the fair distribution of land rights? Oh but wait, everyone but the Jews of Israel in this equation seem exempt using the BlackDog manual. How about you? All the Jews of Israel have done is what everyone else forced to survive has done. They have dug in their heels and clung to their lives and no moral puffing and blowing by you is gonna blow them away. What holds up the solution in the Middle East today is not Israel being undemocratic. Nonsense. As we write Fatah members fleed to Israel to escape Hamas. Please can you not see the irony in that even if Blackdog can't? Of course a just solution requires a two state solution. We all know that. what you think I am some bearded fanatic? Try again. The Jews of Israel did not come from cabbage leaves and magically drop into Israel from storks. The creation of Israel is not simply the consequence of the holocaust and thousands of years of Christian bullshit, it also comes about from centuries of Muslim dhimmitude bullshit and the same dhimmitude bullshit that the people who accuse Israel of practicing racism about stay silent on and many Muslims try escape from and come to Canada to get away from. And for the record I am a Zionist out of negative existential consequence, not free choice. In an ideal world we would not need nationalities or borders. You don't become a Jew out of choice. You inherit it out of consequence a consequence that in your perspective you accuse of being undemocratic. Yah right. You tell the prisoner he is undemocratic. Hah. By the way, I hate all humans equally. Can't stand religions or nationalities of any kind. If I had my way Carla Bruni would run the world. She's my kind of leader.

Yah. You know Yankeelass I have always been ambivalent about France. One the one hand having lived there a bit and quite capable of having lived there longer I was very aware that it will always have certain isms at the pith and substance of its cultural imperative. I didn't find it much different then other countries in that respect although I had some classic anti-semitic experiences. For me personally, I find all chauvenistic tendencies have facistic traits. Fine line between that and Liberalism for me some days. What gives one a strong identity is the fact they use the guise of social acceptance to exclude certain values and colours and exercise the right to select and impose the values and colours we all must endorse. Human nature. Primal ape behaviour. To me nationality, is the inflamed red butt structure on a baboon's rump. Each baboon leader shows his rump. Each one is allegedly unique and how the baboon leader prances and stick it out is how they establish their identit and territory. Primates with inflammed red butts is all we are. Nationality, religion, culture, yah yah yah-its just red inflammed butts.Some of us take it very seriously. Lord knows my people are cursed by its implications. It's just I am tired with celebrating baboon butts. If I have to choose anything today from France it would be Carla Bruni's butt. Now that is worthy of worship. The rest world-wide, bah. Its all just one large noise of billions of apes screaming over the same banana. France I suppose can try protect its culture. So will all of Europe. But who is kidding who-the final evolution of what happens when humans screw each other is anyone's guess-but I am thinking the world is gonna look mocha java light caramel when all is said and done. Billions of Jennifer Lopez types. Nothing wrong with that.

Its interesting American Woman. What is happening in France by no means is unique to France although for the context of your response of course its accurate since you are referring to its sovereign right to make its own laws. Surely we are all aware that in all "Western" nations where we hold ourselves to "democratic" values and "freedom of belief and speech and religion" and as a result frown upon the state and religion being connected and draft elaborate bill of rights, charter of rights and constitutions to codify such freedoms, we are now faced with the reality that some of the peoples are laws intend to protect do not wish to be democratic, do not wish to seperate their religion from state, are not tolerant of the belief of others, do not want to be defined as individuals in the manner we define ourselves in Western democracies and come to our countries with conflicted values. On the one hand they come for the same reason anyone comes-seeking better economic opportunity. On the other hand, some of these people believe their religion is the only one, and anyone who does not subscribe to it is inferior. So they will take full advantage of the freedoms we provide to defend their values. For them its not a matter of assimilating or tolerating, it is a matter of consolidating a base for their community from which then to isolate anyone not a member of that community. The fact is we bleeding heart liberals must come to grips with the fact that not all immigrants and not all Muslims are interested in our values and have no intention of adapting to them. Maybe their children or their children's children may to certain levels and degrees but them, no. What France is faced with is the same xenophobia that naturally results from the same racism that assumes there is such thing as a unique French culture. French culture is what? Why its like any other culture in the West-built on slave labour-imported slaves brought in from wars to build and then be discarded. Please, Romans, Greeks were what if not rapists and pillagers? The French. Right their civilization and culture is based on stolen artificats from other nations. That is not the issue. The issue now is Western Europe built itself on the backs of colonies and savages who now demand access to their countries. Yegads the world has shrunk and any swarthy savage can get on a plane and show up on our doorsteps with their robes and beards and smelly foods. Where does one retreat to now where pink was the universal colour of skin? Part of what we see is racism. The clash of different race and ethnic values that are not comptabile and no not only pink people are racist-all colours and tones are equally as racist or as I like to say smelly. Show me a human, I will show you body odour. We all smell. That said, a line is being drawn. No it can not be in any society where we try tolerate and act "civilized" will it be rational to think all people will want to assimilate and tolerate each other. Aint happening. So pick your poison. You do what France is now doing which is an attempt to impose a unified vision all French must be willing to follow (the melting pot theory, which is of course the U.S. approach) or you take the Canadian approach which is to pretend to be able to be all things to all people while in fact a set of discriminatory rules for cultural acceptability comes about anyways out of necessity. Oh we call it multi-culturalism but its simply the Canadian way. We smile when we create our selective values we all must conform to. We don't call it discrimination, we call it national interest. Bottom line, some people may resist shaving but eventually, they shave or they find themselves restricted no matter how much we liberals deny that is what is happening. It is what we humans do. Create tiers of privilege to protect our power bases. The body odour changes in aroma depending on who is in charge of the hen housebut it always remains pugnant. As a Jew born into a legacy of a world where I have always been a minority looking in no matter how assimilated by people have become it is all an existential absurdity. To me cultural is nothing more then a pretense to get into someone's pants.

Moi have a hissy fit? You bitch! Hah. Just working with the theme Dog. Now then you make a lot of presumotions. First off, you think you are privy to the U.S. intelligence reports on Iran. Secondly you presume to think the West acts collectively and will act collectively in regards to Iran in such a manner that would actually preclude it from setting off a nuclear attack. Thirdly you assume Iran is logical and sane and calm and balanced and reasonable like thou. Here's the bottom line. You do not know what the actual U.S. intelligence reports say and never will. What you read comes from what is placed on the internet for your consumption. Are you that naive to think what you read is anything but disinformation? Tell me BlackDog for an intelligence analyst do you really think your data from the internet is accurate? Yegads man get a grip. More to the point are you for real? Do you think for one moment France, Germany, Britain, or whatever other 'Western" nation you are referring to act in a unified manner on anything let alone Iran? What world do you live in? Oh wait, the French and British and Italians and Germans all hold hands and sing together around a camp fire. Right. The bottom line is Israel is well aware that today, any fool, anyone, you, I, a child, an old man, a woman, anyone can make a dirty bomb and kill hundreds of thousands. Likewise anyone could release anthrax or dozens of other chemicals and do the same damage without taking down any buildings. Much of what is going on now over the alleged nuclear issue is a smokescreen for issues of strategic interest you and I probably will never know in our life times and I would suspect have everything to do with control of oil and natural gas markets and pipelines with the nuclear reference as a disinformation smokescreen to keep people off the real battle, one between the West, the US and Russia against China for control of vital oil and natural has supplies which require elaborate pipelines with Iran smack dab in the way and refusing to cowtow to the West but sriking an alliance with China to offset its stance. Oh yes the same China Blackdog will not criticize since presumably unlike Israel is not democractic? I personally suspect much of the dialogue is posturing. It has always been a part of the Middle East psyche for alleged factions to name call. Its a cultural tradition to name call. 95% of it is bluff and its precisely that bluff and posturing that prevents war. Its an intricate dance to prevent war. You do this, I do that goes the song. Now of course Blackdog will go to Israel and assure its citizens that those missiles that came in from Iraq and continue to come in from the Gaza those are just figments of their imagination and Iran's leader who continuously calls for Israel to be wiped out is just joking. He really isn't a bad guy. O.k. true he has a beard and looks like a pedophile but hey come on Ariel Sharon was a big fat pig. Right Blackdog. Its all harmless. He's a fun guy. No fanatics in his country are going to be blinded my religious fervour and any desire to have a holy war to rid the Middle East of its Jewish vermin right Blackdog? I mean you have it all figured out. Its all horseplay. One missile is all it takes. That missile being nuclear is besides the point Blackdog and you would know that if you had the pleasure of having a missile come at you. It is all about living another day Blackdog for Israelis. The same people by the way you hold to a different standard then others because I mean according to you they claim to be democratic.

In regards to the first comment above, your comment about holding Israel to a different standard then Iran because it professes to uphold democratic ideals is precisely the kind of hippocritical, subjective bias I challenge. Just what is your alleged standard for Israel anyways? Is it the same one you use for Britain, the U.S., France, South Africa, Brazil and India? Well I would suppose we can wink wink nudge nudge look the other way on Pakistan, Russia and India right Black Dog? No wait. I am confused Black Dog. Russia and China claim to be democratic. For that matter Iran does to, or did that escape your selective bias selection of which alleged moral code you will use. Do me a favour Black Dog enough with the pretentious bullshit as to your assumptions that you hold Israel to a different standard as Iran. Its bullshit and you know it. All countries must follow the same international laws and that is the point. Where do you get off pronouncing Iran is exempt from the same moral standards as any other country? Right. Logical. No subjective selectivity in that. Oh by the way I just love your defined moral code and what you expect. Sort of mystical isn't it. We know what you think Israel does wrong-you do like to state references to Israel in the negative, but I have yet to see you define anything positive. Israel shall not according to Black Dog but never Israel shall. So Black Dog is the new Moses come down from Mt. Sinai to pronounce his new rules as to who must behave in what manner. Problem is you still haven't said anything coherent about the moral code you expect. In fact your admission of holding Israel to an ambiguous different standard summarizes precisely what I challenged. Its not credible precisely because it is inconsistent and based on discriminatory assumptions only you seem to understand. Yah those Israelis. Who do they think they are trying to defend themselves from anhiliation. But wait, following Black Dog's logic, if the PM of Israel announces today all Israeli are savage hooligans it will be o.k. then because now they no longer claim to be democratic. Oh. Pass me the maalox.

Lol BC in the real world all men are no match for any woman. I figured that out when God told me she had problems with my attitude towards certain things, i.e., my belief the burning bush being was reference to either the aura of an impending epileptic seizure or from Moses getting to close to a spacecraft. I also have issues with Israel supposedly being a land of milk and honey. I think that was an exageration on her part.

Something a shmo, putz or shlameel would need to research to get the answer for.

In regards to comment 1, the information I gave is not CIA propaganda, not everyone who criticizes China is an imperialist yankee and I dliberately quoted a socialist union organization. No I do not quote things that are against Chinese people, just specific government policies-my debate is over specific Chinese policies, not Chinese people..and no I do not think criticizing the Chinese Communist Party and its government is an attack against Chinese people. I think with due respect its not accurate to say because I criticize specific policies I am anti-Chinese. I am not anti anyone-now its policies and government approaches, uest I I can't stand many of them-as for people-I hate all people equally- I only like dogs and cats and birds and animals. I apologize I did not mean to stear the topic off point. It may have been more appropriate under another heading and you are perfectly right-it does appear I am singling out China for being a slave nation-for the record I responded to you and I have problems with many countries and their policies not just China. In regards to your last comment about Jews that was with due respect dumb. At no time did I engage in gross negative generalizations about Chinese people as do some posters when they claim to criticize Israeli policy but in fact engage in negative stereotypes about Israelis and Jews. I do not criticize people for criticizing Israeli policies-I do tie my colon in a knot when people engage in anti-semitic or anti-Israeli as people references just as I would expect you to if I said racist things about Chinese people. For the record, I think the government of China and the Communist Party of China are in my opinion are problematic. Also for the record, no I do not think since you brought it up, that as a Jew or a Canadian, I am perfect or that the Canadian system is perfect but I would take the Canadian way of life including its values and political system over anything China has to offer at the current time thank you very much. No I would not feel comfortable in the way I was brought up as a "Jew" or a "Canadian" engaging in the kinds of business and other practices I see engaged in, in China. But no I do not think I am superior to anyone nor am I such a zealout that I am going to invade China and force people to eat Maple Syrup. XUL just so you know my mother was born in the Jewish community in Shanghai, and survived the Japanese and went to medical school there before she left as a refugee to Canada. I know all about how the Chinese were kind to Jews leading up to and during World War Two in Shanghai and what the Japanese did and what Mao did too. My bias comes from particular Taoist beliefs not being anti-Chinese. But I don't blame you for accusing me of bias because I am and I most certainly do have cultural biases not just political ones. Of course. Now getting back to the topic, yah slavery is wrong and I have issues with it. My people have always had a problem with it. My great great great grand-father Moses was a trade unionist had problems with slavery and led others of my kind out of Egypt because of unsafe work conditionst. It has been causing us problems ever since we left and started a nation of our own so we would no longer have to be slaves. In retrospect despite all the misunderstandings none of us want to go back to Egypt and work for free. That is why so many of us do stand up comedy now. Its more fun. I like the Jamaican attitude about slavery. When the british tried enslave the Jamaicans they simply said, "you crazy man" and headed to the mountains and still make great coffee up there not to mention if anyone tries to come to Jamaica today and boss them around they just say "soon come".

I am sorry BC but the innocent victims of right wing posters shtik is getting in my craw. From my perspective I try not to get personal with posters and I admit I can slip sometimes like we all do. But what happens a lot BC Chick is that certain posters when they come on this forum engage in opining that is personal. It makes sweeping assumptions as to the motives of all Israelis and their right to exist and gets very personal but you not being an Israeli would not see that. I am sorry BC but some of the words used when criticizing Israeli policy are highly personal and they are as inappropriate as me or anyone else doing it in reverse with Palestinians or Muslims but I see people like Norman Finklstein quoted as credible academics for smeering all holocaust survivors as being liars and using it to justify Israel's existence and its hard not to take it personally being part of that world of people who have survived it. It does get personal. You are right though no none of us should insult one another but with due respect I see people dish out negative generalizations of an entire people but then when someone throws it back at them they run. We all should try harder to keep these debates non personal yes. I suppose you might see the tit for tat I and B-dog are having is personal. I don't think so. I just am enjoying sparring with him on Iran. He holds his own ground very well. I doubt anything I say will cause him to loose sleep or suddenly visit a delicatessen. Stand your ground BC. I may not necessarily agree with you but I sure as hell respect you and your opinions nad if you think it gets too personal say so. Hold your ground girl. Your opinions are important to me and I am sure others. Listen I have had some good clashes with Bush Chaney. But I clash because I like his honesty and bluntness. Just because I disagree with some of his opinions doesn't mean I would take what he says personally. In fact his bluntness in my humble opinion is easier to take then say someone like me who unlike him tries to be such a prig faced righteous sob. I like blunt libertarian republican conservatives although I am not one. You know where you stand with them. Its us liberals you should worry about. We are too smarmy. Head up girl and spit it back.

Black Dog I have responded to your comments and again respond to them and since you appear to me to be having a selective problem as to what you stated hear let me refresh your memory: Post 97; “And what has Iran actually done in the past 25 years to indicate they are irrational actors? On what basis is the assumption being made that the Iranian regime will suddenly cast aside the obsession with self-preservation that has characterized its actions for the past decades in favour of nuclear suicide (the inevitable consequence of a nuclear strike against Israel)?” Post 109; “Never defended Iran or its record. I simply asked why people think the Iranian regime is suicidal. That has nothing to do with their treatment of gays, women or dissidents, its sponsorship of terrorism etc etc.” Post 120; “Do not confuse stupidity or incompetence with actual suicidal intent.” Post 126; “ I shouldn't have to explain this, but questioning Iran's commitment to nuclear suicide and the wisdom of starting yet another war in the region is in no way, shape or form a defense of Iran's human rights track record or a denial of its crimes. Simple stuff.” What I have challenged and responded to and continue to challenge is your position that you feel Iran’s human rights record and treatment of its own people within its borders as well as its role as a major financial supporter, military advisor, and for that matter using its Iron Guard along side Hezbollah or to train terrorists is not relevant when asking whether it should be trusted with nuclear weapons and not to use them against Israel. Of course you being an intelligence expert you also stated Iran has stopped engaging in the build up of its nuclear arsenal and of course you are in the position to say with full confidence that Iran is stupid and incompetent but not suicidal. Again for the record, following your argument, supporting terrorism against Israel and other nations, being involved in a clear economic war with the West over oil, killing and torturing its seasons in the name of Allah not to mention being stupid and incompetent are all irrelevant considerations when considering whether it should be trusted with a nuclear arsenal. And you tell me to stop it? At no time did I say you denied Iran has a human rights problem. What I am stating and state again and no you can’t back step your way out of it Black Dog-I am stating loud and clear, your attempt to deny all these issues associated with Iran and dismiss them as irrelevant is typical of your selectivity when it comes to arguing against the U.S. and Israel-you are the same person who will be quick to point out what Israel does wrong but not a peep from you about Iran. That is why I challenge your credibility. Unlike say the other posters on this thread who typify the usual selectivity as to Israel and ignore any other country’s track record , you try to continue this act of being rational and neutral and poo pooing hysterical right wingers unfairly demonizing Iran. My but imagine if you spent an equal amount of time applying that same benefit of the doubt to Israel or the U.S. Like I will hold my breath. Love the Michael Jackson moves. Stilly singing the Iran is sweet and innocen and rational song? Uh huh.

No I don't. I have had some success designing early intervention programs for drug addicts and the mentally ill so they do not end up in the criminal legal system for petty crimes but its all based on voluntary consent. Forced treatment? Lol. If you are suggesting I want to drive around in a truck with some guilt ridden humanist liberals looking for schizophrenics on the street and abduct them and force pills down their throat and make them live with Celine Dion uh no.

That is the dilemma. If the illness prevents the individual from being able to provide informed consent let alone conceive it what next? Leave them to wonder the streets where they eventually die from preventable diseases that come from poor diet and hygiene which is what we do now? Theory and reality in such cases just don't seem to be able to reconcile one another. Right now the legal system does not allow forced treatments. Most doctors know they will be sued big time if they try force treatment on someone. Does the state intervene to impose treatment? With children and organic diseases yes other then that no. The state will also intervene to prevent people from engaging in euthanasia but when it comes to those with mental illness it no longer plays any mahor role. Yes it's possible in theory for the state to impose treatment but from a practical perspective the process of committing someone is very difficult if not impossible and even if committed forcing medication on such people has to be done in a controlled institutional setting which governments are not willing to spend any money on-so out the door they go to the streets to wander and babble and be taken advantage of. Knew a guy on College Street and Spadina. Used to love to push people off their bikes or yell and slap people. Pushed me off my bike and I slammed down pretty hard and was bleeding a bit. The police were driving by and heard some people scream. I got up. They stopped him and but him on the car and he of course was schizophrenic and engaging in all kinds of screaming noises. We all knew the guy. The police asked me if I wanted him arrested. We all knew the guy. We all knew he would be back out on the street. Mostly he was harmless but he did have that annoying habit of sometimes walking up to people and slapping them or knocking us off bikes. They brought him back to the Clark and he was out in half an hour at the same corner yelling. That guy ended up going into a street car. He had a silver hammer in his back pocket with a leather handle. He was screaming and yelling. People ran out of the street car. The police came. The officer on the scene was a traffic cop. When he went in the street car he saw the silver and black leather and thought it was a gun and shot the guy dead. That cop took it real bad. The family of the dead guy took it bad. Believe me if that guy was swearing at you and coming out you, you would be convinced he could kill you. You would not know for the most part he was just crazy. What can I say. The system is not perfect. Not sure how it ever can be.

JB once again you make many comments and I will respond to sum; "Sure, do you know what international law says about military occupation?" Do you? Care to explain why you will only discuss it when it comes to Israel but no one else? "Do you know what the UN says about the Israeli occupation?" Say now is that the same UN that saysnothing about Sudan and Zimbabwe and Hamas and Hezbollah and China, etc., if your point is the UN is blatantly selective and hippocritical because the countries that sit on the Human Rights committees are all gross human rights violators and so has zero credibility precisely for what it does NOT say, yes I know. "Good, so we both agree that both sides are out of step with international law." Israel most certainly violates international law but you have no clue why. Can you make an effort to find out why rather then mistating what you think is the violation when it is not the reason for the violation? Israel is not violating international law because it is on the West Bank. The West Bank was never a sovereign nation. Under international law you can not occupy a country if it has never been a country. The West Bank has always been disputed territory. Israel violates international law not because it is on the West Bank but because it governs Israelis on the west Bank with an Israeli civilian government but Palestinians under its military government. It violates international law precisely because it will not annex the West Bank bexcause it has been trying for years to come up with a two state solution that would turn the West Bank into a second Palestinian state. "Even with Israel's policy of underminding the PA to a point where they were not capable of living up to their end of the bargain..." Again you make sweeping accusations with no proof. Since when are the PA a bunch of blithering morons under Israel's spell? What a ridiculous stereotype of Israelis being mind control manipulators. Gee I wonder where that stereoype comes from. Never heard it before. You state; "A former US ambassador to the Israel and Egypt agrees with me and he was an architect of the Israeli-Egyptian peace accords." He agrees with you? I note you did not say you agree with him. Lol. Listen up just who is the Ambassador and what did he say. I note you did not reference his name or his actual comments. Why is that? How is one to debate you when you do not provide a basis for your opinions? You stated; "True, and Israel's offers have time and time again been lopsided in their favour (see: West Bank Cantonment)" Right. Israel offered Arafat 97% of the land he asked for. Sounds lopsided to me. Kind of like that swap for the two dead bodies right? Where I really take umbrage with your comments is in the following statement where you claim you need assistance in defining what homicide and terrorism is; " I'd like to see an article, because often times the definition of if someone's a murderer or not is determined by what side of the (security) fence you're on) ". Right. Samir Kuntar did not murder anyone nor was he a terrorist. You need a definition from an article to understand that further. When he took the three year old girl's head and smashed it on the rock that needs further clarification. You stated; "I wasn't aware that Israel unilaterally withdrew..." Yes evidently you seem to be unaware of a lot of things. Your simplistic description of what Israel is doing with the Gaza borders reflects your deliberate selectivity in ignoring the ground situation and why Israel needs to restricts its border to prevent terror attacks. You also again repeat the demonization myth stating Israel has no reason to try secure its border other then to be evil and hurt Palestinians. Your need to constantly assign Israel demon motives simply reflects your bias and it blinds you to any balanced discussion rendering your comments nothing more then unsubstantiated name calling. Here let's cut to the chase shall we? Israel is poo. Israelis are poo faces. The IDF are poo faces and demons. You state; "When Israel launches a missile at a car in a crowded market, it KNOWS it will kill civilians, it just doesn't care, because Palestinian lives aren't worth anything in Israeli politics and society - which is exactly why Israel behaves with what I call a murderous recklessness in choosing it's targets." Read my lips, the above statement is a vicious and blatant negative stereotype. It assigns negative motive to the IDF with zero basis for this assumption. You know nothing of the IDF and what it does on the ground or in the air. You have never been there, you do not know the threatre and conditions it is faced in and operates within-you don't know the tactics it uses to avoid killing innocent civilians thereby placing its soldiers in danger. You provide zero evidence for your subjective comments. I would love to be able to take you and place the body parts from a terrorist attack all over it and ask you to tell me which part of those kidneys and spleens are Palestinian and which ones are Israeli. Yet another security expert sitting in Canada pontificating as to how to handle terrorists. Right. Here is my favourite comment from you though; "This conflict isn't a proxy for your bigoted worldview, sorry - you don't get to play other people's lives." Do you even read what you write? Do you ever stop to think what a hippocrate you sound like? Read back the last sentence. You think your views on Israel and terrorism do not reflect your bigoted views? Do your comments not play with the lives of Israelis? Um uh um uh. Oy. Jimmy Swaggart?

Excellent points. The very last sentence I have a problem with. I do not doubt certain psychotropic medications and pharmacological approaches to illness, whether it be physical or mental cause more problems then good or worse side effects then the good they are supposed to intend-conceded, but no I think its an overstatement to say most of what we see with mental illness is as a result of medication. Yes if you misdiagnose someone and treat the wrong illness yes. Does it happen yes but I think you overstate it. You underestimate the ability of doctors to be able to force the wrong medication into people to start with, and then not noticing it, if they even get that far. Often people blame medication for causing problems because of something else they do not understand that is going on. Where I most disagree with you would be in your description of psychiatry as "inventing". I would not use that word. I would use the word "react". Psychiatry reacts to symptoms and thus if it pays too much attention to the symptoms and does not dig deep to the whole or root, that is where the misdiagnose and mistakes can occur. At least that is how I would criticize it. On the one hand I know how flawed medicine and psychiatry can be. On the other hand, my belief is it is not all bad and for some it does provide them a better way of life they could not otherwise access and I know people on an off medication for bi-polar and other mood disorders and schizophrenia or that helps them contain drug addiction cravings or helps them with anxiety, depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, and I see the beneficial things it can and has done for such people and the inverse when they don't take their medication. It is the age old debate. You really think a schizophrenic is better off untreated? I know many brave people with mental illnesses who have chosen the pharmacological approach and it has helped them and all power to them for doing that and all I am saying is they should not be falsely labelled as being mind controlled or using drugs as crutches, etc. They have a right to do what they think brings quality to their lives is all I am saying.

His mother makes me puke. His lawyers manipulating the press and emotion to gain him sympathy make me puke. People who say he is only a child make me puke. The fact is he was a child soldier. The fact is he engaged in war at the time he was captured and at the time he threw the grenade that killed US soldiers so he should have been placed in a military prison as a prisoner of war and held until the war is over. The fact is the laws and system behind G-Bay have clearly been rejected by the US Supreme Court as unconstitutional and the governments of Britain and Australia pulled their prisoners out of G-Bay precisely because they felt the legal system begind it is completely and utterly flawed. To me there are two issues. The issue as to the law for me is simple-George Bush deliberately violated international law and US domestic law to create a kangeroo court to showcase this child soldier and in so doing have made a mockery of everything the US stands for and claims to be fighting for. That said, in regards to Kad's family, they are manipulative, opportunistic, two faced, hippocritical sob's and I would deport them all. Good riddance to manipulative, terrorist trash who urinate on and ridicule everything Canada stands for and then have the nerve to demand they be treated like Canadians with the very same rights that come from the system they urinate on. As for Kadr, the emtional manipulation his lawyers are engaging in to try create a political outcry is a deliebrate and crass tactic. They could have argued the law and won. Instead they chose to have him displayed like a monkey crying on cue in his cage. All we now need is PETA picketing and demanding this cruelty to caged chimpanzees in the lab be ended or pictures of bloodied seals inter-mixed with Kadr's sobbings. He's a bloody prisoner of war. He stopped being a child years ago. Canadians living in a sheltered world have no clue what it means to be a child who is trained to be a soldier and what they are capable of. No they are not just children. They are lethal killing machines. Kadr is not some misunderstood stray cat you bring home and feed. He's ferral. Releasing him back into society at this point is ridiculous. He's now for all intents and purposes a socio-path who will always see himself as a victim entitled to everything Canadian society offers its citizens. He's no victim. Treating him according to the law should not be confused with feeling sorry for him and pretending he is a harmless child.

Is New Brunswick in Canada? I thought it was in the Maritimes...

What you don't want him in the U.S.? What next will you tell us to keep those deserters?

The War Measures Act could no longer be invoked because of the Charter of Rights. It is possible though the federal government could pass other laws or regulations to invoke state imposed interventions in the name of national security.

Of course it does B Dog. It demonstrates precisely the kind of suicidal fanaticism that blinds its leaders to the suffering they cause others in the name of moral righteousness. It shoulds they think nothing of destroying their own people-if that is not what suicidal fanactism is what is it? Harmless benevolence? As we speak the Arab League of Nations has announced its full support for the leader of Sudan. Right. I love this selectivity as to who we can poo poo when it comes to human rights violations. Sorry B Dog your selectivity is about as credible as the Arab League of Nations announcing full support of the President of Sudan or China criticizing Israel while providing military supplies to the soldiers carrying out the genocide in Sudan. Kind of like that dumb grin on Lindsay's face and how delicately she walks these days. Isn't it obvious her friend Sam has a pierced tongue?

...and like most anti-Israeli fanatics you engage in presumptious, sanctimonious accusations as to the very actions you criticize others for. Realism or credibility aren't your strong suits. Fact of the matter is a preacher should zip up his pants before engaging in sermons so he can limit knowledge of his short-comings to his words, not his divine essence. Oy.

Xul your soft pedalling of Chinese child labour and poverty is not something I am going to buy into today. Sorry. I urge people to find out for themselves why the use of forced labour, including the use of child labour is not the minor problem you suggest it is, for example; http://www.tulane.edu/~rouxbee/kids99/china2.html http://ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=57 http://www.china-labour.org.hk/en/node/15889 http://www.evb.ch/cm_data/clb_Child_labour...hina_Sept07.pdf http://child-labour.suite101.com/article.c..._labor_in_china http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=14513 http://m6.mailplus.nl/genericservice/code/...ommand=viewPage http://en.maquilasolidarity.org/en/node/628. As for the portrayal of Chinese peasants no longer being poor, I again challenge people to find out for themselves whether the Chinese government has manipulated statistics in regards to its alleged poverty reduction programs’ and whether the masses of China are benefitting from a few corupt sob's who use the state organ to oversee nothing more then an opressive state owned and run sweat shop; http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/T...:430367,00.html http://www.iserp.columbia.edu/research/wor...ads/2006_04.pdf http://team.univ-paris1.fr/teamperso/sponc...rty%20china.pdf http://www.princeton.edu/~piirs/calendars/...per%20Apr08.pdf http://www.gwu.edu/~econ270/Taejoon.html http://www.columbia.edu/~sr793/china.pdf http://www.dfid.gov.uk/news/files/china/urban-poverty.asp http://www.icftu.org/www/pdf/chinatradeemp...development.pdf. With due respect Xul I am not interested in the official People’s Republic of China propaganda responses to be used with Canadians on their inter-net political discussion forums. Tell them no thanks not today and yes some of us do read and although they censor the inter-net in China they haven’t as of yet in Canada. With due respect to your handlers Xul, your country is built on slave labour and child labour and precisely because it doesn’t have to worry about such silly things as human rights, worker’s rights, occupational health and safety. Spin away Xul but 16.6 % of china (250 million) live on less then $1.00 per day and another 700 million (47%) live on less then $2.—per day and you are well aware China is one of the world’s leading nations in regards to economic inequality. Now of course I know you would argue the World Bank are liars but they claim China’s impoverished went from 100 million to 300 million in a survey released in December of 2007. Also appears the economy shrank 40% from the year before. Your country uses prisoners as cheap labour to produce products; http://www.uscc.gov/researchpapers/2000_20...rts/pris_02.htm http://www.cleanclothes.org/companies/adidas27-6-98.htm http://www.amnesty.nl/documenten/forcedlabour.pdf http://www.businessweek.com/archives/1991/b3210035.arc.htm http://www.laborrightsnow.org/chinaprisoners.html http://www.notmadeinchina.org.nz/. Here people can go on a tour of your sweat shops at; http://business.nmsu.edu/~dboje/nike/china.html. For the record I am not a member of Falun Gong, from Tibet, a human rights worker for Amnesty, a CIA operative, Olivia Chow or Kack Layton or a Progressive Conservative of NDP supporter. I am a well known member however of the Hollywood movie producer-one world government-international financier-Jentucky Fried Chicken franchiser owner, Zionist, conspiracy cabal. So now and then I like to remind people that Israel and the US are not the only poo nations of the world. Regards, Norman Finklestein

Move to China then. Only someone who takes his freedom for granted would make the comments you did.