betsy

You are an agnostic. Or to be precise, a SKEPTIC. As for Kimmy's leprechauns....well, that's no comparison at all with the possibility of a God or Designer. Possibility of God/Designer had caused quite a stir through the ages, and all the more so in the present time with the help of modern science. Furthermore, evidences found in the Bible (whom a lot of men of science had relied on in the past) cannot be dismissed. Kimmy is missing the point. She'll just have to review the topic from the start.....that's all I can do for her. If she wants to compare something with leprechauns, the so-called "missing link" should be it. A skeptic! Technically - whatever that means - still boils down to the same thing. Skepticism. He is confused, I think. But we're talking about the Designer. And the Judeo/Christian God. And the arguments and debates that's been going on for ages. Some of the arguments have been presented in the topics Rejoice On This Day, The Bible, Video/Debates/Interviews etc.., But there are tons of info all the way back then to the present - even Darwin`s awe as he grappled with his findings is repeated by those who embrace and support the possibility of a Designer today. As far as I know, (unlike the Christian God) no one is presenting any theory or argument that the Greek deities could possibly have anything to do with creation, or the universe....to even remotely suggest that they could be the Designer. So mythological gods are not the same. They belong with the leprechauns as far as comparison goes.

Lastly.... Are we off the hook if we choose to be neutral or silent regarding abortion? Proverbs 24 11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; 12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works? We are supposed to help the weak. How ironic that the most helpless humans are those inside the womb. Matt 7: 21-27 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Point # 5 We have to look inside and ask, why did we want religion in the first place? Why did we embrace Christianity? What is our reason for being a Christian? If the answer is salvation and eternal life, then it's very crucial to know and understand God's will, and to be able to discern when we're being misled. Otherwise, what's the point? It's not like as if we're on a trial run. Eternal life is the purpose of this whole exercise, is it not?

Ground #4 What do you say when someone asks you, "Is abortion right or wrong?" What do you say when a fellow-Christian tells you, "Bring the church to the 21st century!" or "It's time to modernize the church." Those statements suggest God is out-dated. That God should bow down to suit what the modern times demand. Therefore that means this world wants to dictate to God. Those statements smack of arrogance, vanity and rebellion. Isn't that reminiscent of the fallen angel, Lucifer? Who was arrogant and vain? Who led a rebellion against God? Romans 12: 1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Political correctness does not trump the Laws of God. One can be civil and diplomatic.....but that does not necessarily mean we set aside, or attempt to twist around what's written in the Bible. We have to hold our Christian ground. Please remember that Satan is a master of deceit, who will use anything or anyone as a tool to alienate and lead us from God. Before we follow or approve of any new way of life, we have to contemplate deeply and ask ourselves: whose agenda are we promoting? God's or Satan's?

Ground #3 Matthew 22:36-40 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” If we're supposed to love God with all our heart , with all our soul and with all our mind.....Why do we desecrate His temple? Why are we placing SELF above Him? Why do we approve, and abet others to offend Him? By supporting the murder of unborn children, we break those two greatest Commandment of all.

Ground #2 “My body, my choice.” True followers of Christ must not support this feminist doctrine for the simple reason that your body is not your own in the first place. 1 Corinthians 6 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[c] and in your spirit, which are God’s. 1 Corinthians 3 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. It is said that today is the generation of the “I,” or the “Me,” or the “My.” “My body, my choice” really sums it up. Everything is directed towards self-gratification. From all the material things we have and try to accumulate, the pursuit of careers, our obsession with personal fulfillment. Sacrifices are made in order to achieve these gratifications. Priorities are re-shuffled. Family. Children. Even The Lord’s Day. All for the sake of gratifying the SELF. Those who've read and understood the Bible will know that the Old Testament shows a seeming endless cycle of idolatry - wrath of God - repentance - forgiveness - idolatry - etc.., The Jews just kept on backsliding and almost alwyas getting influenced by pagans to the point that they end up giving sacrifices to idols and other gods. One of the worst they did was sacrifing their children to the god Baal, or Molech. Evidently in the present time, SELF had become a god. SELF had become the modern-day Baal. Don’t we Christians believe that the body is not ours? That is the temple of the Lord. That since we carry Christ in our hearts, we are the “Church?” Our children are not ours. They’ve been entrusted to us by God. Jeremiah 19 3 And say, Hear ye the word of the Lord, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle. 4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; 5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Are we not the present day equivalent of the stiff-necked, backsliding Jews from the Old Testament? They said they believe in God, and yet they worshipped other gods. They made offerings to other gods….they even committed the worst sacrifice in the eyes of God. They offered God’s children as sacrifice to Baal. Think about it. Are we not sacrificing our unborn children to the god, SELF?

Now that I've established the verses that clearly indicate the great significance that God had placed on the fetus, and that it is considered human let me get to the next point. The Commandment: Thou shalt not kill. That is a law! One of the 10 Commandments that we, as Christians, are supposed to OBEY. The Spirit of the Law is as important as the letter of the law. The 10 Commandments of God are given to all - Jews and GENTILES! Furthermore, Jesus had a very strong message about the Law in the New Testament. Matthew 5:17-20 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

I welcome the non-believers input, however please keep in mind that this topic is reaching out to fellow-Christians (who think or are led to think that the Bible is silent on this issue), so naturally itll be like sitting before the pulpit, guys. Yep. Like a sermon. Back to what I was saying.... The Old Testament provides most of the information regarding God's view of life before birth, since the OT gives us the law. The law that specifically points to the issue of taking the fetus' life is in the Book of Exodus: "Exodus 21 The Law Concerning Violence 22 If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the womans husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." This is quite clear. A man who induces abortion or miscarriage (premature birth) is to be punished, which is a clear indication that God values life before birth.

I have several points to give in support of my position regarding the Biblical view on abortion - or the killing of the "fruit of the womb." I will start first by giving the various references that points to the fact that the fetus is human. The pages are not blank when it comes to the fetus being human. Several passages from the Bible depict that. Here is one reference from Genesis 25, talking about the families of Ishmael and Isaac. 19 This is the genealogy of Isaac, Abraham’s son. Abraham begot Isaac. 20 Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah as wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padan Aram, the sister of Laban the Syrian. 21 Now Isaac pleaded with the LORD for his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD granted his plea, and Rebekah his wife conceived. 22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, “If all is well, why am I like this?” So she went to inquire of the LORD. 23 And the LORD said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.” 24 So when her days were fulfilled for her to give birth, indeed there were twins in her womb. 25 And the first came out red. He was like a hairy garment all over; so they called his name Esau. 26 Afterward his brother came out, and his hand took hold of Esau’s heel; so his name was called Jacob.[c] Isaac was sixty years old when she bore them. The fetuses were referred to as "children." Two nations are in your womb. Nations are people. The following verses from Job supports my position that the fetus is human. Job 3 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day. 2 And Job spake, and said, 3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived. JOB 10 8 Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me. 9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again? 10 Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese? 11 Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews. 12 Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit. JOB 31 14 What then shall I do when God riseth up? and when he visiteth, what shall I answer him? 15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb? 16 If I have withheld the poor from their desire, or have caused the eyes of the widow to fail; 17 Or have eaten my morsel myself alone, and the fatherless hath not eaten thereof; 18 (For from my youth he was brought up with me, as with a father, and I have guided her from my mother's womb;) The following verses from Isaiah show the significance of the fetus in the eyes of God. Isaiah 44: 2 44 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: 2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. Isaiah 44 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isaiah 13:18 18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children. NOTE: If the “fruit of the womb” is nothing but a blob, why would it require any pity at all?

I've given my strong views on abortion, had argued passionately against it based on human rights. Although I've stated that my anti-abortion stance is primarily fueled by my religious belief, nevertheless I tackled the issue on this board not with faith-based arguments/reasons but by insisting it is a gross violations of human right. This topic was inspired by an encounter with a church elder from the same denomination I now belong (Baptist). Yes, I've just been recently baptized (again) - this time voluntarily, symbolic and much more meaningful since it states my sincere desire to belong to Christ. My discussion with the elderly led tothe issues of abortion and gay marriage. To my surprise, he stated that, "the pages are blank" on those issues - meaning they're not in the Bible. It is true. Nowhere in the Bible does it explicitly state, "Thou shalt not abort"....but I don't think the pages are blank. So I did my own research. THE PAGES ARE INDEED NOT BLANK! Here are the results. Please don't get me wrong. This elderly is a good man with good intentions, doing his own ministry of visiting state penitentiaries, actively doing his part in spreading not only the gospel, but compassion and kindness. I pray to be blessed with the same dedication and perseverance. His view about abortion is however not unique. There are Christians who share the same view. This thread is for them. For my brothers and sisters in Christ....not to condemn them, but to share with them the glasses that helped me see.

Anthony Flew, one of the oldest atheist philospher had recanted and became a deist. Dawkins, the posterboy of evolution had conceded he isn't sure that there is no God. The several prominent atheists who converted to Christianity from the topic Rejoice. The arguments presented in this topic, and all the other related topics. Agnostics you should be. That is the only sensible position to be for atheists. Atheism is now dead for the simple fact that the possibility of creation or Design has been raised. To cling to atheism is to cling to faith - the faith in a non-God.

You might want to check this one. ATHEISTS UNITED. They need more parishioners.

Ooops. Then I guess I'm not a fundamentalist....since I don't take all interpretations of the scriptures literally. Thank you for that clarification.

It's not important to me how old the earth is. So I wouldn't butt heads about it. God isn't telling us to believe earth was created 6,000 or billions of years ago. He's telling us to believe He created everything. And of course, as it is showing.....Creation is more palusible than the loooong series of various "accidents" that led to the establishment of a finely-tuned earth. Ahhh...social control. You must mean, having to follow rules.

I'm not sure if this was the one I've read quite a while ago, but here is one... Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/06/02/science-vs-bible-reconciling-genesis-big-bang/#ixzz20RP4XJVe

I've not pretended to be something else. I've always worn my Christianity on my sleeves, and am a fundamentalist to boot! Where have you been all this time? I'm referring to other people. Open-minded thinkers won't be too quick to dismiss something that's being backed up with sources. An atheist who would, is a....fundamentalist atheist! They are powered by their faith....just like me.

Backtrack and read. Most, if not all of your rebutts have all been discussed. You're just rehashing. Better yet, review Genesis. For all your talk about *studying,* it's amazing how you could've missed it.

With all the arguments/reasons I've given in this topic, yes....to an open-minded thinker it's more plausible that a Designer - which in the Christian belief is actually God - did it!

Yes. And we're also talking about atheists' belief on origin. If evolution is being taught in school, Christian belief and/or belief in Designer should also be taught. Of course I'm singling out Christianity and ignoring all the rest. Why? You're in the very topic why. The reason is at the core of all these arguments in this topic. Backtrack and review.

But of course you have to understand the whole context of those references. He could've been bullied probably, because of his religion. Who knows? Not you or I. I was talking about ex-Christians.

double posting.

Speaking of *wrong*....what about your scientists? With all their "maybe" and "could be," with all the numerous attempted hoaxes and fraud over the decades, the biased peer reviews, not to mention the unsubstantiated claims that even your prominent Doctor Dawkins had made....still, they haven't got their origin theory right. They either keep changing....or plugging leaky holes. So full of excuses. Somebody even mentioned aliens from outer space - inspired perhaps by Scientology - as the answer. They believe in aliens too, you know! Imagine that! With all the hocus-pocus, and still not getting it? Yet look at the Bible. In all its simplicity and endurance over thousands of years..... Btw, even water! They still hadn't even figured out where all the water came from. Just saw a documentary about asteroids on CBC a couple of weeks ago. It tells about their latest assumption - another "by-sheer-chance" scenario, what else? They're saying that very rare huge asteroids that probably got some ice inside (which melted because of the close proximity to the sun) probably hit the earth. Now, not only are these floating huge popsicles very rare....but the chances of them hitting the earth is quite rare too! What's so amusing is that you guys would willingly believe in an assumptive long series of chances that might've happened AND which supposedly coordinated fantastically to create a world so finely tuned, and yet you readily dismiss the idea of Creation or Design - which is actually more plausible than your looooooong series of coordinated chances. Who is actually trapped in la-la land? Certainly not the Christians.

Well if a theory is being passed off as fact - that's not "scientific" anymore, is it? If science start limiting itself and is unsure about venturing out of the box - just because some radical atheists decided to ram their own belief down children's throats - that's no longer science. That's religion!

Whether they changed *a lot* or not doesn't matter! What's eventually written in the Bible - that's what matters. And the listed facts are all in there. That "God stretches the Heaven...." - you call that "vague similarities?" Will you backtrack again and check those out. There are I think at least 3 co-related facts just on that phrase alone that was written 11 times (I think) throughout the Bible! The fact too science emphasized that the "stretching" is the precise description of what's happening. *wrong* that perhaps they were not supposed to be taken literally? That they were allegories? Not *wrong* because some are still in dispute? Not *wrong* because evidences have not been unearthed....yet? Just like one of the archeological facts listed where-in a Christian archeologist was finally vindicated years after they thought he got it wrong? Some scientists say the Bible is bang on! Who has more credibility ? Scientists or you - who has this revulsion towards anything or anyone religious? Anyway, so what if God created the plants first? They're also fully grown and fruit-bearing since He wants to make sure the first man and woman do not starve to death! He is God! He can make it anyway He wants to....He doesn't have to follow the laws of nature! He created the laws! You're focusing on such minor details.....you'll probably even bring up how old Earth is!

BIBLE class. CHRISTIAN class. To be specific. The Judeo/Christian God is the one and only true God. After all, we're talking origin, aren't we?