betsy

Her buoy? All I saw was the boarding up of windows, the preparations for the storm.....we all do that! But how about when one is in the midst of utter devastation? How did she explain? Perhaps I'm so wrapped up with my faith that I don't see it...so kindly take me step by step.

Therefore fathers can claim the same "right." Why should they be forced to use and exert their body any more than they want (physically and mentally - by working) just so to support another life? The mother wants to experience motherhood and raise a child, then she can fend for herself and the child. Why should she place a limit on the father's "right" and "freedom"? What gives her the "right" to have her own slave just so she can exercise her maternal instinct?

Ethics? We bring in ethics.....when what we're talking about is NATURAL function? She's shirking from her natural function and natural responsibility, to say the least.... I guess it shouldn't be an ethical requirement for fathers to provide support to their spawns....or to help the mother nurture their children.

But it's her natural function to nurture and care for that baby in her womb. So yes, you could say she is THE life support "machine" of that baby in the womb. That's motherhood. I suppose even the theory of evolution will agree with me on that.

Thanks.

I joined in 2005, and from what I gathered from old members, some had joined in 2001. So when exactly was the forum, Mapleleaf, born? Perhaps its history should be included somewhere (permanently) - along with informations on those who started it, and the volunteers who helped start this site. How did it all get started? Whose idea was it? Who were the volunteer posters of yesteryears? Etc.., This is a marvelous achievement, and the fact that it is still being enjoyed by thousands to this date - a legacy - speak for itself. It deserves recognition.

A Christian do most of that except that we also rely and put our trust in God. Not too long ago I visited a friend who's dying of cancer. She looked relaxed actually....and if I didn't know about her illness, I wouldn't think she was dying. We held hands...and she told me with firm conviction..."I'm ready to go." Then we joked about death...and later on I told her she better remember to pray for me on the other side, that I may be able to say "I'm ready to go" when my time comes. She said she will! We talked some more about family...and I had to look for her misplaced comb. I don't know the exact word to describe that visit. I don't remember us crying, although of course there's sadness inside. It's just like saying goodbye to someone who's going home... A few days later, she was gone.

Of course I agree we do worry....it goes with being human. Even Jesus (if I'm not mistaken) had expressed some kind of nervousness or anxiety about His impending torture and demise (in the garden just before He got arrested). I agree. But sometimes the storms are hurricanes in magnitude - tornadoes. And when one is caught helplessly in the middle of it, a Christian will naturally turn to his God. In fact, that's how a lot of Christians who'd gone astray - the lost sheep - came back to the fold. When the burdens get so heavy, or when one reaches rock bottom.....that's when one tends to hear God....to reach out to God...and they usually become born-again. True. But there's always that reassuring feeling that we're never alone to weather what may come. I feel the same way around nature,.....and I'm always awed by it.....for to me, it is the simplest art of my God given to His children. Perhaps that's what they (nature) were intended for! To feel how you and I feel. Some have been moved and inspired to write songs and poetry about them.... Yes, we focus on the immediate too. But eventually, each and everyone of us will have to face the future. But if things aren't going your way (finacially-wise, relationship-wise, health-wise) how do you cope? So yes you say you acknowledge accountability. How do you deal with your worries? How do you board your windows before the storm gets there? And you know the saying about "the best laid plans....," so I'm back to the question, what if your best-laid plans fizzled out? How do you deal with that? On the contrary, Christians will try to do their best - because that's part of the deal. Visuals of a Christian doing nothing but waiting for God - that's a myth. We're supposed to do our best in our fields of work - demonstrating our Christian values in our everyday lives!

What makes you so sure that only the low-wage earners are the only ones abusing the system?

FYI, that parent is probably doing the most important responsibility: by having more time with his children. In the long run, as I said...the dividends will pay off when those children become productive adults with good values that they can impart to the future generation. A parent has to teach his children how to become parents! Children learn parenting skills from their parents. If children are taught by their parents how to be responsible citizens, you'd hardly have problems with people abusing the system. As it is....hardly anyone is at home anymore to do some actual parenting! Our obese children live on commercially prepared food, for crying out loud! Wanna do a practical research? Stake out a grocery store. Every now and then you'd see a three-generation family who are on the "chunky" side. Grandma almost always look the "slimmest" of the lot....and the grandchild promising to be the most obese given time. You think it's fast foods that's to blame for obesity among our children? Think again....peel the onion....dig deeper. A lot of people I know who are busy chasing the almighty dollar to pay for their 3 acres estate homes have one or two children! For a lot of parents, children are an accessory. The height of parenting to some is to whine how time is spent taking these children to hockey games (nothing wrong with that)....but parenting is not about being a glorified taxi-driver.....or the "awesome provider" who can afford to gift children with laptops and ipods. Never mind the qauntity (as the numbers of children)....but the quality of parenting. QUALITY. What a shame to have only one child and that child becomes the albatross of society....and someone with five children with all kids having okay jobs (even when they're only minimum wage jobs) but with good parenting skills, with practical outlooks and no inflated egos thinking most menial jobs are "beneath" them. Don't knock down people who don't earn high-paying jobs. You're pegging down the whole lot of retail employees (for starters)....

Anyway, if you want to pursue the euthanasia discussion (which is interesting)...let's start another thread for it.

How do you know they really want to die? They could've been suffering from depression...or were coersced by family who find it hard to look after them...or they're in an abusive environment that makes them feel useless and a burden...or they're with uncaring people....or they don't have anyone....or they're plain scared! How sure are you they're not making a clouded decision? We always hear about someone trying to commit suicide....but actually not wanting to die. The act of suicide was just a desperate call for attention. How do you know the difference?

Hello? The very subject of argument we're discussing is a classic example how things will progress! From a whole shebang of birth controls progressed to abortion to only when it's absolutely necessary (mom's health in danger)...then it became okay to kill 3 months old babes....4 months....5 months to the presnt where it's okay to kill a baby as long as he's not breathing on his own. Forced breaching here we go! You can now break a baby's neck while his head isn't out yet. Abortion had become a birth control device! Then some people (I gave the source) are now talking about infants that are born....that they should be lumped along with the fetus. What next? Precocious little one year olds? Terrible two's who give their moms migraines? They progress!

Well I was only going along with your rationale that you go by what it's called. This one is called Life SUPPORT (and I must say it's aptly called that) for the function it does - supporting UNnaturally. It may.... or it may not. Like I said, humans don't naturally exist with a life support machine attach to them. Are you walking around with a life support machine? Taking life support away could result in death....or it may not. You never will know, wouldn't you, unless you remove it. And here you go again. Where did you get that idea? All I did was correct your inaccurate assessment that abortion and life support are the same thing! They're not!

So what do you mean by this? So I disagreed with that statement and explained that they are not the same. Where taking off life support doesn't necessarily mean wanting to kill the person but to let him survive on his own - letting nature takes its course.....whereas abortion's purpose is to definitely kill the fetus, without mercy may I add.

I must've been confused. I thought you brought up mercy killing in comparison to abortion. On Christian grounds, of course yes. How many times do I have to say that?

Except that it will almost certainly be abused to justify murder. That's how mostly these things go (legislating and so-called rights), they progress. It is quite understandable for the handicapped people to be very concerned about euthanasia. Some over zealous family member could just as easily decide they (handicapped) are suffering....and do an "act of mercy." Handicapped people could just as easily be declared "non-viable".....and will go down the drain just like the fetus, or the non-viable infant. And then AW will tell those who protests against it: "But they don't even call it murder. See? It's called "mercy snuffing." It's an "act of mercy."

Big difference between life support and abortion. In fact they're not the same. Life support - the very name describes its function. SUPPORT. They didn't call it "Life Ender," did they? Taking off life support means letting the "living organism" exists on its own, letting nature takes its course. We're not naturally connected to a life support, you know..... Some end up surviving - breathing on their own - after being taken from life support. Abortion is.....killing.

I hadn't expected that rebutt!

What? Because society chose to use the word "birth control" instead of factual descriptions like...."killing unborn?" If you're promoting something, wouldn't you "package" it in such a way that buying your product doesn't come with so much angst? Sometimes voicing out your emotion is the only thing left to point out an injustice....even if it means yelling at a brick wall. Bingo! You admit it yourself. Thus I said, you can dance all around the definition....but in the end it still boils down to the same thing: KILLING.

With your hypothetical Christian man (who could be indeed real), I'd then assume that he is a Christian - with a capital "C" - who tries to follow the teachings. I'd assume he is a born-again. I bet his children are taught not to place importance on the latest ipods, silly little tweets and keeping-up-with-the Jones'. I bet his children are taught about the value of human life, the importance of family, and marriage. I bet his children are taught and strictly monitored to stay away from drugs and bad influence, to follow authority....to discern right from wrong. Marriage before sex. Did it ever occur to you that if parents actually spend more time with their children and instill with them good values, we wouldn't be having all these youths running amok on the streets with all these delusional grandeur of self-entitlement? There wouldn't be that much problems with drugs....and crimes? Promiscuity and teen pregnancy? Then we taxpayers wouldn't have to shell out more dough paying for abortions, rehabs, self-inject clinics, more social workers, institutions of various kinds, educational paraphernalia to combat all these problms we face now. Think of all the money we could instead channel to feed the hungry and homes for the homeless! ...if you're not noticing, things are escalating! Is that coincidental, you think? Anyway it's good for another topic.

About 8 or so years ago, my husband and I were losing our business (and probably even our shirts). At the time, we were just getting started to discovering Christianity again. I remember us reading the papers because there were no customers, and the headline was about a farmer who lost all his 9 children and his pregnant wife in a fire. He was pictured in his grief, hugging the smallest coffin. Of course the media was all over this tragedy. Later, the farmer gave a statement through a relative stating that it is only his faith in God that's keeping him strong at the time, and that his faith had only grown all the more strong. I remember weeping after reading that (my husband's eyes were red). It was so humbling. There we were fretting over money....when this guy had lost his entire family! My husband and I talked about God that day, and we both resolved to place everything in His hands. Whatever happens we'd accept with grace. We both slept well that night......

Wait....you're hauling in the usual rebutt that we've dealt with several times before. We're not butting heads whether the Christian God is real or not. Whether He's real or not is definitely not the issue....unless you guys are trying to change the channel. The point is: Even if He is not real (to atheist), he is very real to the Christian. It is that faith that a Christian has that his God is real which carries him through all the hardships and stark realities of life, that may mean he could be dying with terminal disease, or had just lost a loved one, or is going bankrupt, failed marriage/family life, that he's not like the successful people he sees around him, that he may be homeless or always living on the edges of poverty......his faith that these are just wordly stuff and he looks forward to the life beyond - as promised by his God - is his buoy in his earthly life. What is your buoy?

What is a good Christian? Somebody who donates to charity? Treat his neighbors kindly? Feeling compassion to the downtrodden? Volunteers to help in anyway they can? One need not be a Christian to do all those! You're talking about a good person. To be a Christian is to believe in Jesus and try to follow His teachings....following the greatest two Commandments as explained by Christ. #1 on His downsized list, Loving God with all you heart, and with all your mind, and with all your soul. Love involves TRUST. You have to trust God. You have to glorify Him by showing you are dependent on Him! But that's so easy to say. It's like a "soundbite." Give your own "testimony" how having no-God ( no one to turn to, nothing to live for ) could possibly have a tranquil peaceful feeling. I want to understand! Changing a few words with "riches" and "fame" and "achievements".....Boy, in the real earthly world where materialism rules, that sounds like the usual whine from the "have-not." ..."You're not really at peace at all"...perhaps that's exactly why others find the Christian attitude as suggesting we are "superior" to others who don't have the faith in the Christian God? And that we are being "arrogant?" Perhaps it's not because we feel superior or arrogant...but rather you feel inferior? Why do some have a negative reaction (to put it mildly) to someone who's preaching? Why do some place so much importance on wether they think or feel they're being "judged?" Could it be the problem isn't in the Christian at all....but rather in the person who's reacting? Can you give me an explanation to that?

Read my reply to Bonam. Anyway, if he's getting by in a low-paying job....what makes you think he has to work double shift or look for a "better job?" What's "better" to you may not be "better" to him. Perhaps his present job, although low-paying it may be (according to your standard), provides him with more time to see his children, and actually do his job parenting them! It's all about priorities, isn't it?