Signals.Cpl

So what about the terrorists who don't care about your desires to stay out of anyone else's business? The once who see western nation and put it on a hit list? Or what about those nations who want to take resources right from under our noses do we just give it to them or run and cry to the US to protect us because we chose not to defend ourselves? This is one of the most idiotic ideas I have seen in some time, the nation that essentially hands over its defence to another nation is not independent at all.

That is a deeply flawed logic and I do not subscribe to that just like the majority of Canadians do not subscribe to the theory that we can't stop all bad guys so we will give up altogether. We can't stop crime so why keep the cops around, they are just a waste of money right?

Listen, if you want to place the security of your family on the hope that no one will attack us then by all means you have the right, at the same time I have the right to know that there are reliable fighters in the air who can divert and if necessary shoot down anyone who endangers us. By your logic we should disarm the Army and the navy and have a collective prayer every night.

You are absolutely correct, we cannot stop 100% threats to Canada so we should stop trying to protect ourselves and throw out a prayer or two every once in a while to keep us safe...right?

Should we invest in nukes instead?

Because Its hard to be in NORAD if the Americans are the only participants with Aircraft, its also hard to escort passenger aircraft to an airport when needed if you have no reliable aircraft... we depend on the US for a lot as it is, we should not have to ask them to protect our airspace because we don't want to invest the money to do it ourselves.

And how would they compare to a modern fighter? This company is stating they can bring a fighter that has been obsolete for 5 decades to a fighter that is modern in 5 years with a cost of 50 million? The plans are irrelevant if the plane is loaded with 50 year old technology nor are they of any value if we still have to spend hundreds of billions of dollars research and developing all the equipment within the aircraft. If it was that simple the F35 would have been done years ago and at much cheaper, you want the best or you want an aircraft that was obsolete decades ago and will need substantial investment to bring it up to speed, investment Canada cannot afford.

So your position is that the conservatives didn't lie, they just suck at explaining themselves?

It is 14 billion for the F35's I think and that is the purchase of the aircraft the rest of the cost is in manpower and infrastructure as well as weapons and such. The whole point is that if we develop our own aircraft it will be prohibitively expensive as the US placed an order more than 2,400 planes while other nations placed roughly 600 planes on order. The development cost of the aircraft is split upon all the aircraft, if there are more nations buying suddenly the cost drops if there are only 120 planes on order suddenly the entire development and infrastructure falls only on the 120 aircraft. So either we buy American Aircraft or we become very convincing as to why the US should place an order for 2400 aircraft with us. Yes, but when we use the same calculation as is being used on the F35 it would jump up to 35 billion. Also why would we spend 9 billion on an aircraft that was outdated 50 years ago? And technology is much more advanced now while we don't have the same the same infrastructure or experience as post war canada of 60 years ago. Again this is after the Second World War and we had the expertise and infrastructure to do so while now we are short on both and will be facing serious competition just like 60 years ago. And designing an aircraft simply for an order of 120 planes is going to be much more expensive then buying 4 times the number of F35's.

Because the PBO used a different formula, Mr Harper was well within his rights considering every purchase for the military since he came to office was made using the same formula as the F35's. Saying the government lied because someone somewhere used a different formula is stupid to say the least, but the NDP took up the flag and went to fight the conservatives at every point because they "lied" all the while conveniently ignoring that the same formula was used for the Naval and CG projects where if using the formula presented for the F35s would bump the price to 300 billion at least, something contrary to desire of the NDP. The price tag that was given out was the cost of the planes, the extra 24 billion is not in extra cost, it is already there for the CF18's and will be there for any fighter regardless...

so thats what you are basing your position on "we lied but the Conservatives didn't call us out on it therefore they are the liars and bad guys"? Kind of destroys your position don't you think? You are not arguing that the NDP lied you are arguing that the conservatives failed to all them out on it.

Willingly lied to them? Like the NDP did and still does? The main fault of this government is that they seem to be allergic to presenting their argument in an understandable way which leads to the NDP crooks to play the honest party. We will buy a replacement aircraft, that is not in question what is in question is wether the NDP will raise up enough stink to cover up their lies and thus force us to buy an aircraft that will cost us more in the long run and cost us lives because of the reduction in capabilities.

Well we can buy the fighters from the US for 9 billion dollars or we can develop them in Canada for 300 billion dollars... I wonder which one is more affordable.Designing an aircraft from scratch costs a lot of money, the US designs the aircraft and places a substantial purchase and when we put our little 65 plane purchase it is affordable but when we design, build and field the aircraft in Canada we need to sell an unrealistic amount just to break even.

Why? Why should the government have to take it to the Canadian people? The NDP is accusing the government of lying so by not touching the ships then they prove that its political and the government was right all along and that the NDP was and is lying. Think about the sudden about turn if the government was to give maintenance contracts to companies in NDP riding? Suddenly this becomes one big non issue.

Selective hearing? Why don't you ask why the NDP is so quiet about the ship building program? You seem to be a hypocrite just like the NDP, accusing the government of lying while the NDP is lying to the Canadian public and endangering the lives of members of the military for political points...

F35 is all over the news because the government "lied"... 30 billion dollar ship building program is not in the news even though its with the same formula... Both are conservative government programs both were calculated the same way one is ok the other apparently makes the government liars...

And what give the NDP an opportunity to fight him as the defender of the working people whom Mr Harper is trying to put out of work? Can you see it? If he had used this argument suddenly the NDP would cry that this would cost 10,000 jobs and billions of dollars in investment in areas that need it... Again you seem to ignore that the NDP finds fault in one but not the other, simply because one benefits them while the other does not... No but if the NDP was honest and had any integrity they would level the same accusations about both project but if they do they face losing votes in the affected regions. That is where the hypocrisy comes in, you are trying to shovel bullshit our way saying that Mr. Harper should have done this or that but ignore that the NDP called the man a liar but were awfully quiet about the project that benefits their riding. That is hypocrisy at its worst and soon the Canadian public will realize that the NDP is nothing but crooks that try to score points regardless of how many lives will be put on the line for their political gain.

The NDP lied and you are lying for them... somehow it makes it ok in your mind to calculate the cost one way if it benefits you but if it does not benefit you it should be calculated in the most ridiculous way possible.

How did he lie? The government used the same formula that they have used since they took office, no one complained about any of the other projects but suddenly the F35 is being counted in a different way? You are lying because you are trying to present the ship building project as an NDP project that uses formula x and therefore it is an amazing project and the NDP should be praised for ti, while the CPC is using formula x for the F35 and they are therefore liars. Thats why the NDP will not last long. Again you are trying to cover up that the NDP is fighting one project while ignoring the other. If the government were liars why not challenge them on the ship building project for the navy and the CG? Why didn't the NDP bring these argument then as well? They could have pointed out that the government used the exact same formula for both project and therefore they are liars... now you are trying to say they are liars for the F35 but for the naval project they are a ok because its supported by the NDP.

I really want to know what will happen when the bidding process is going through and suddenly the cost of the F35 drops down to 14 billion right along with the other aircraft... how will the opposition explain that one?

But the calculation was not even close to the same, no one counted the 200+ sailors per ship, the hundreds of sailors who are needed to maintain and support those ships from shore or the manpower needed to keep them afloat. Then no one added the infrastructure and everything else mainly because when presented with 300 billion dollar price tag for the ships people might be ever so slightly pissed off. Your logic is that its ok to use a formula as long as the project is either supported by the NDP or benefits the NDP but if it does not benefit the NDP but rather the CPC then we should use an inflated formula. Use the same formula for all projects or none at all because right now you are complaining about the lies of the Government while praising the lies of the NDP. PM Harper does not need to make the point, he knows we need the new ships, what is needed is one intelligent and fair news source that dives deep in the issue and pointing out the hypocrisy of the NDP. So what was he to do? And yet no one is angry about the lies of the NDP its ok to add the "full" cost to the F35's but we will not fight to have the same formula applied to the shipbuilding program because we pushed for it... that means you will hold the government accountable but will not hold yourselves accountable... It is not about the PM, it is about the NDP... the NDP is calling the government liars for presenting a cost using the same formula for both project, one benefits the NDP and therefore the formula is perfectly ok the other does not benefit the NDP and suddenly its lying. Did the CPC lie about the full cost of the ship building program?

The PM did not lie to Canadians, he used the exact same method of calculation that the Canadian government has used for a long time the only difference is that the NDP wanted to stir up trouble and started calling it a lie. Why is the NDP so quiet about the new ships for the navy? They use the exact same formula when calculating the cost as the original calculation for the F35 yet not a peep from the NDP. One is of little benefit to the NDP politically and they lack the understanding of why we need it and then kick up a lot of dirt, while keeping quiet over the ships makes sense to them as they don't want to piss off their voter base in those regions which will be getting the new jobs and funding.That is the two faced NDP for you...

You live in a dream world and I highly doubt you have worked a day in your life to even know how far off base you are, you want to force people to join a militia and learn another set of skills in order to repair aircraft that nobody needs, wants or finds particularly useful? And building parts without permission of the nation that designed and build them is not exactly a great idea but then again you have no idea about real life do you? You don't realize that Canada is not China... Most people base their opinions on some sort of facts while you base your opinion on fantasy that will never work, I am done wasting my time even reading your posts, honestly all I can say is I hope you pick up a book and educate yourself a little because this is getting just a little bit sad.

We can afford the F35's simply because the cost of the Aircraft is the main expense and everything else is already in place as we have the trained crews and assembled infrastructure. The thing is people look at the cost and see 35 billion but once that is properly adjusted it comes down to about 800 million a year which comes from the defence budget as it is and is not added to the budget on top of what the DND already gets. The pilots will still be there as would the technicians and mechanics so would the cooks and clerks as well as the MPs. The bases will need to be repaired and maintained hence the engineers and other support staff add the weapons tech's the supply techs and the dozens of other trades that are necessary to keep the fighters in the air and they will still be there wether its the F35's or Spitfires. We are not adding a completely new unit, we are replacing an existing asset, the CF-18's cost the same to maintain over their lifetime if we adjusted for the same timeframe and for inflation we need to be realistic when we talk about this subject and realize that the overall price will not change substantially unless we buy less planes or more planes or someone decides to use a different formula to calculate the price.

The biggest cost is the manpower, so getting the same number planes would be a very close match to the F-35 price that is unless suddenly the calculation method were to change and switch back to the original calculation method where the opposition will accuse the government of trying to sabotage the new planes... If we are to cancel the program we should cancel it for the right reasons, meaning we can find a better aircraft that meets our needs rather then cancelling the purchase simply because people don't like it that the Conservative Government supports it. Look at the potential missions over the next 30-40 years and use the exact same calculation method for any potential aircraft if they meet all our needs and are cheaper then by all means buy them but we need to be realistic about this. Open the bidding process make the requirements well known and go about choosing the next fighter without pulling out of the F35 purchase without determining if there is an aircraft that meets our needs at a better cost since pulling out might cause a chain reaction in our allies only for us to circle around 2 or 3 years down the road and realize that the F35 really was the aircraft that met our needs but since we puled out and others ended up pulling out either it is dramatically more expensive or has been canceled. I know that there are people who are against the F35's wholeheartedly and will oppose them even if it is proven in a fair bidding process that they are the aircraft for us simply because they would not want to admit being wrong, and I know some of out MPs are in that camp. Look at the Sea King's the Liberals cancelled them and then realized that they cancelled the purchase for the aircraft that met our needs yet still refused to purchase them because it would look ridiculous that they would cancel the project and turn around and order the same aircraft because the original order was right. If we cancel we should cancel for a reason other then someone coming with a new report every 6 months and adding 10 years to the life of the aircraft or finding ingenious ways to count more personal and infrastructure in to the bill...