jacee

Sorry to hear that Rick.I'm not impressed by that judge's creds either. I'm not too surprised at the ruling, regardless. If homeless people are also allowed to camp in any city park anytime, then so can anyone else. Until then, nobody can camp there. Occupy will survive. I believe what the Occupiers say ... It's unstoppable.

I'll take your word for that. His "equality" and "lawlessness" campaign rings a bell ... Christie Blatchford perhaps? He's a blowhard with an audience, some of them dangerously angry and single minded. I'm happy to hear he's going after the Mayors. They and the police and their communities need to have the public conversations about who gives orders to the police. I'd like to know that too!

Nonsequiter ... With the 1% in my mind these days, it occurred to me that if, as many believe, there are predatory greed monsters victimizing the rest of us ... it would make sense that they would have invented religions like Christianity and its values to mold the masses to their purposes: - Give away your wealth to the poor ... so 'we' (the superrich) don't have to be concerned that they'll steal from us, ... because it's easier for 'us' to steal it from the poor than from the middle class - The meek shall inherit the earth ... so put up and shut up while we steal the common wealth - Your reward will be in heaven ... so put up and shut up while we steal you blind here on earth - Don't steal, don't kill, don't covet for yourself ... only if we tell you to make war for our profit, 'in the name of God and for His glory' - ETC ETC ETC ... Not to say that God or faith doesn't exist outside of the avarice of the oligarchs ... but if it didn't exist, they'd invent it, I think, as a key mind control strategy to free the oligarchs from constant and expensive direct control, confrontation and conflict. Some suggest that Christianity was co-opted to the purposes of the oligarchs at the time of Constantine and for the Roman Empire (which then descended into gross depravity and decline). Just a thought ...

The students can protest too.It's a 'free' country ... remember that concept? There's a holier-than-thou attitude among conservatives who oppose the OCCUPY movement, and also a sadistic streak that enjoys hearing of painful punishments inflicted on others. It's a disturbing quality, uncivilized at best, and barbaric at worst. Forcing people's mouths open to pepper spray them? What is wrong with those cops! Think maybe they follow the sadism of the conservative screamers and whiners calling for blood? Sickening. I'm concluding that conservatives have no real interest in democracy at all, just conquering democracy for power and terrorizing 'lesser' beings.

If there's to be a modern solution, the who-did-what-to-whom-and-when approach has to be abandoned ... put to rest ... deep sixed ... fini ... caput ... /end. (I notice the Haaretz also refers to Gaza and the West Bank as "occupied territories".) Also to be dumped in the trashbin is any judgement or comment about the religions of the Israeli state or Palestinian territories: Israel needn't acknowledge a 'Muslim' nature of the territories, and indeed I've seen no evidence that Palestine defines itself as such. Likewise, Palestine needn't acknowledge the Jewish nature of Israel. Both states have the right to define themselves by religion, if they so choose. However, one state need not, and indeed should not, be required to, nor engage in defining the nature of the other. From here forward, with commitment to moving forward, there can be resolution and peaceful evolution into two states. OR ... There can be continued slogging and slagging through the quicksand of the past ... And no progress for either. It's a choice.

Thanks for that perspective SF/PF. It's one that's been missing here and we tend to assume that all oil workers agree with the company line that fast profit through pipelines is the only way to go.As an Ontario taxpayer, I'd be interested in looking at the possibility of putting some Ontario money into development of refining and manufacturing facilities out there with some profit-making potential for Ontario, and some jobs assured for our unemployed workers. As for "treason" ... well ... that's just Harper the CEOwannabe whining because he can't fire the people who disagree with him. His idea of 'democracy' is that once he's 'in', ALL Canadians must pay fealty to him because he's the boss. I do wonder sometimes why someone so obviously an autocrat would make democracy his career. Unfortunately, I've concluded that his purpose is not to uphold democracy, but to subvert democracy to corporate purposes. The pipeline (or not) is a prime example of that: Instead of looking to the long term and what's best for the largest number of Canadians - ie, refining, manufacturing, value-added - he's putting all his efforts into pipelining short-term profits to the oil corps. That's not what's best for Canada or for Canadians.

We could bake them some brownies!

Who 'influenced' the rules to benefit the 1% disproportionately ? Who corrupted politicians and democracy to provide more income and wealth to the 1%?You haven't convinced me dre. There are people pulling the strings to make the system do what it does, which is to disproportionately increase the wealth of the 1% astronomically during times when the rest of us are struggling and still losing ground. The system can't chaange itself, and the politicians can't change it either unless the 1% get softened up and realize that we are very serious about disrupting their influence on our democracy.

Irrelevant.In court the issue is 'do they understand that what they did was wrong?' You'll have to show me a case where a pedophile got off on an 'insanity' plea because I don't believe it happens. The evasion of detection is clear evidence that they know what they're doing is wrong. Pedophiles don't get an insanity defence. They go to jail.

Heard today that the church is backing down from the invitation to stay. Guess they don't want to deal with the homeless addicts who've been drawn to the community. I still think Dalton's front lawn is the place for the protesters.

I don't agree. The 1% are not merely business owners earning good money: They are EXTREME wealth, FAR above even the 96-99%'rs, whom I would call the 'ordinarily wealthy'. The 1% hold 40% of the wealth of Canada, make buckets from the stock exchange and other investments including PUBLIC DEBT. They do this by manipulating and corrupting both governments and markets. Those are the ones we need to de-claw. The ordinarily wealthy can help out by paying more taxes if they want, but they're not the real culprits.

The millionaires want the panel to raise taxes on people who earn more than $1 million, even though most Republicans are committed against the idea. COOL! OCCUPY can claim some influence! This is exactly the kind of outcome that makes sense. It's a start!

CHALLENGE !!! Good grief Argus ... you don't actually believe that do you?!? If you are referring to the 'insanity' defence ... you are waaaaay wrong. That defence is reserved for those whose 'mental illness' renders them delusional ('The voices made me do it.'), psychotic, mentally handicapped, etc, to the point that they cannot distinguish right and wrong. Pedophiles are fully aware that what they are doing is wrong - Eg they groom kids carefully and avoid detection. Pedophiles don't get to claim 'insanity'. They go to jail ... and should be there a helluva LOT longer than someone growing a few pot plants. You need to rethink your understanding of 'insanity' as it applies to crime, because you are waaaaay off base here.

The news video of the kids hanging over the fence chanting was great! A whole new generation of protesters! I do wonder, though, about a woman picking up her kid being hit by a hardball ... is the baseball diamond that close to the school entrance? Seems there's another problem there. I look at the asphalt 'playgrounds' at city schools and think that our acres of grass and field were much nicer back when ... We had at least 4 ball diamonds and that's what we did at recess/lunch all the time. However, I believe we only played softball ... might be wrong, maybe the older boys played hardball ... not sure ... but it would seem to me softball would be a better alternative than 'nerfball'.

Well you can ... if you give up your health card ... or you could try burning it! Ya! And invite other people to come and burn theirs too. Or just sell it. What kind of crowd of support would you expect? I don't want to be a downer but I don't think many people will care about your cause ... But I'm pretty sure they won't let you camp in the. park though. Well I wouldn't be surprised if a judge sees it somewhat that way, though in this case no one is prevented from using the park - all are welcome.But let's be honest ... the reason people can't camp indefinitely in parks is because they don't want homeless people doing it ... but none of us really ... we aren't allowed to live outside on public property for free. Hmmm ... Perhaps a judge will see it differently ... This protest wouldn't be what it is without occupying something ... About 10 people who had pitched a tent inside the Bank of America branch in San Francisco have peacefully surrendered to police. http://www.mercurynews.com/occupy-oakland/ci_19347111 I think it points to a need for a people's forum.

The truthtelling continues ... Goldman Sachs is gonna go DOWN!!! Guess what the (Government Accountability Office) GAO found? Conflicts of Interest. It seems the Banksters are sitting on the Federal Reserve board supervising their own institutions. The fox is guarding the hen house in other words. One of the most damning GAO discoveries is the timeline of Goldman Sachs turning into a holding bank and a Goldman Sachs directors, Stephen Friedman, also serving as the New York Federal Reserve chair. (See article and timeline here ...) In other words, you have a NY Fed Chair, helping make sure his company, Goldman Sachs, has access to cheap money, which will guarantee a strong profit for Goldman Sachs and buying more stock in Goldman Sachs. Why this is watered down as a interest, instead of a criminal offense is beyond comprehension. And there are more. ... I'm curious about dre's take on this ... Is the "parade" beginning?

Seattle City Council passes resolution in support of Occupy movement Occupy movement ---- Seattle makes sense. Why make the cops fight and arrest? out in the streets ... They're as peacefully assembled as almost any city block of people downtown. It'll evolve into a continuing public forum so why get bent out of shape ... Tear gas pepper spray rubber bullets batons cages wtf?! Booorrring. Stooopid. Leave it to the courts for now.

The money powers that be have to be ... 'persuaded' that revolutionary change is necessary first ... They gotta WAN-na change.

More reason to OCCUPY !!! Banks add sneaky fees Consumers may have won a battle when the big banks dropped their proposed debit-card fees earlier this year, but the war is far from over. Think consumers won the war when the last of the big banks dropped their proposed debit-card fees at the beginning of November? Guess again. Many banks have found "under the radar" ways to charge customers for holding their accounts, and to make up the income they lost when the Federal Reserve capped debit card fees in June. Some of the fees are new, and others are increases of existing fees ...

I think Wall Street should find them a building to continue the conversations ... Wall Street can do talks about 'financial literacy' or whatever they want to call it when they're explaining themselves to the rest of us.

Update: Stay of eviction ... To rule on Constitutional rights Peaceful assembly ... And they've done that. Well done! And it's not over yet... A Toronto judge has postponed the eviction of Occupy Toronto protesters while he rules on constitutional issues raised by applicants for an injunction against city by-law officers. Superior Court of Justice, said everything at the St. James Park site of the protests must remain the same until his decision is made, no later than 6 p.m. on Saturday. “I think the most appropriate way to balance the interests of all concerned is to maintain the status quo for a very short period of time,” Justice Brown stated, in granting a temporary stay of the eviction notice. He will hear arguments on Friday.

Some people, like grogy and Wild Bill, seem to think that democracy is ... 'put your vote in the box and shut up'. Not so. We are responsible for everything our representatives decide on every issue, and we have an obligation to make our voices heard.Down the road, when the number of prison deaths climbs to astronomical levels, become routine and even expected, grogy and Wild Bill will be shrugging and saying "Well what could WE do ... we didn't know what they were doing! They didn't ask us!" We have a responsibility to KNOW what politicians are doing IN OUR NAME, and to make sure we voice our opinions when we think they are wrong. And the 'angry old uncles' are very wrong about this crime bill.

Since the Canadian Bill of Rights was an ordinary statute, it was not until 1982 when the term fundamental justice was first constitutionalized. The phrase was included in section 7 of the new Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which asserted that "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice." To limit the rights to life, liberty and security of the person, the authors of the Charter specifically chose the term "fundamental justice" over "due process" because they believed the term "fundamental justice" would still be interpreted to mean conventional " natural justice". ... ...since the Court decision Re B.C. Motor Vehicle Act, the meaning of the words "fundamental justice" in section 7 has been greatly expanded and encompasses much more than mere procedural rights. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_justice I agree with you on that, but I think the 'angry' people are more focused on severe, even brutal, punishment for minor transgressions that offend their sensibilities - marijuana being the prime example - than on 'procedural fairness' or any other aspects of what "fundamental justice" really is. The most troublesome aspect of Harper's 'omnicrimebus', in my opinion, is ... Prison officials will have more latitude to disregard prisoners’ human rights, bypassing the east restrictive means to discipline and control inmates. The Canadian Bar Association ... 10 reasons why the passage of Bill C-10 will be a mistake and a setback for Canada It's particularly troubling to me that it would put Correctional Officers in the role of policing, judging and punishing crimes occurring in prison, with NO PROCEDURAL FAIRNESS, indeed no procedure at all: Correctional Investigator Howard Sapers called the principle a “golden rule” of corrections and said his staff uses it regularly to determine whether restrictions imposed on prisoners, such as solitary confinement and use of physical restraints, are appropriate Instead, guards would be asked to use “necessary and proportionate” restrictions, adding a new layer of subjectivity to decisions on everything from use of force to prisoner access to rehabilitation programs. The union that represents prison guards says it supports the change because not all prisoners want to be rehabilitated, and guards should be allowed to use their discretion when determining how to deal with challenging inmates. Pierre Mallette president of the Union of Canadian Correctional Officers ... said some inmates, particularly those who remain involved in organized crime while in prison, hinder the rehabilitation efforts of other nmates and guards need to be able to treat them differently. crime bill hands guards more power I know what's going to happen ... I'm sure everyone here knows what's going to happen if Correctional Officers can dole out whatever punishment they choose, in the 'heat of the moment' or in a premeditated manner: They'll pick and choose their victims, and dole out severe punishments to suit themselves! This is a particularly barbaric element of the bill, and very disturbing. In New Orleans during hurricane Katrina, a flooding prison was abandoned by CO's , leaving some prisoners locked in their cells to drown, and others desperately trying to pry bars open to free them, with limited success, before finally abandoning them to die in order to save themselves. The ones left behind had just been arrested and some did not even have charges laid against them yet, and some probably wouldn't - eg, drunks 'breaching the peace' and hauled in to get sober overnight. Most of them were black men, of course. You won't hear a peep about this in the media unless you go looking for it. Do we want a prison system that callously makes life and death decisions about prisoners with no procedural fairness, no oversight or accountability whatsoever? Because that's the road we're going down with this bill written by/for 'angry old uncles'.

That's the point ... it's about engaging people in the discussions, and keeping it all very public, not handing it off to anyone who then goes behind closed doors and buries it.It's about keeping it VERY uncomfortable for the powers that be ...

The mayor disagrees ... Mayor Michael Bloomberg said this morning, in response to the restraining order, that the park would not be re- opened until the city had an opportunity to address the restraining order. A hearing is scheduled for later Tuesday morning with duled for later Tuesday morning with Justice Lucy Billings of State Supreme Court. The New York Times reports that when protesters returned to a barricaded Zuccotti Park with the judge's order, police there refused to let them enter. Police grabbed a man who jumped the barricade; he and another man taking photographs he and another man taking photographs were arrested. And it appears that not all city councillors agree with Bloomberg: mong those arrested today was New York City Councilman Ydanis Rodriguez, who City Councilman Ydanis Rodriguez, who had gone to Zuccotti Park when he learned of the eviction. He tweeted early this morning that he was at Central Booking, "arrested while showing support for #ows Fellow councilman Jumaane Williams, who was also at the protest site, tweeted that Rodriguez was "bleeding from the head thanks to the #NYPD." http://m.cbsnews.com/fullstory.rbml;jsessionid=hbejkkpXdyNkQ47JNXwwEw**?feed_id=1&catid=57324871&videofeed=37&emvcc=-1&emvAD=320x397 Heard on CHCH tv ... Bob Cowan said ... You send Rob Ford into the camp wearing a tutu, that'll clear them out! I'm not too worried about Occupy Toronto ... They have backup plans.