GWiz

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17967&view=findpost&p=627091 Why don't you go cry to the mod again? I'm not interested in wiping little trolls noses... Besides, as I've already told YOU 1/2 a dozen times I don't respond to snipets of my posts... On second thought maybe I should let the mod know about YOU, eh... That might really be FUN...

On this we can agree... The relevence I was conveying is that it's quite concievable that an unmanned but human or human/AI controlled multi role air frame could be the mainstay within the U.S. airforce/marines/navy/army/et al in very short order if your scenario were to play out and NOT the F-35 or any other manned airframe... Even now with all the advantages an unmanned fighter brings with it what I write on that link - http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17363&view=findpost&p=625853 - along with the others I posted paints a pretty good picture of why going ahead with the F-35 purchase is the wrong thing for Canada to do... Please have a good read through this thread and just maybe you'll be able to see why I feel rather strongly about this... To boot it's actually a pretty enjoyable and at times rather humourous read...

Me too my friend, me too, but hey, it's fun to try opening peoples eyes to reality, if in the end they still can't see, so be it, it matters not to me...

You might want to take a look at this - http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17363&view=findpost&p=625853 - The simple truth as it regards much of this including UCAVs like the X-45 program and others, is NOT the Technology or Hardware, that already exists and is easily doable TODAY... NO, the "problem" is the same one causing great expense and delays in airframes like the F-35 and other "next generation" airframes, that being the SOFTWARE (which for the F-35 is only 50-70% complete and still untested) and in the case of unmanned (but manually and/or artificially guided) the ethical, and legal applications, cost in jobs and financials regarding current contracts (Like the F-35 and F-22), and other implications surrounding their "roll out" and use... However, like all major advances, these "problems" will be worked out... They have to be because if the U.S. doesn't, then China and most likely certain other countries, will... One other thing to remember is that just like it is today when it comes to ANY Military applications it's NOT the "individual unit" that is primary, it's "the package" of diverse units that rule the day... - PLUS - http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17363&view=findpost&p=626315 PLUS - http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17363&view=findpost&p=626929 When combined you may see a very different picture...

Gotta love it!

To my nose that BAD SMELL comes from Harper, being a Moroney trained "agent" and all, not to mention the way he's sneakily selling Canada out in much the same way Lyin' Brian did while driving Canada into another debt ridden period that the Liberals will AGAIN have to bring Canada out of (if it's still doable at that TIME)... Other than THAT we're not all that different

OWCH! THAT still hurts today... http://archives.cbc.ca/science_technology/aeronautics/topics/275/ http://www.avroarrow.org/AvroArrow/index.html http://www.avro-arrow.org/ True... At least for Americans... For Canadians it matters quite a bit, we're the ones that'll be paying for that decision...

That's my American friend giving us all an honest answer...

Ummm, Canadians like me...

You seem to think the F-35 is some sort of "super plane" - it's not... - But expert Winslow Wheeler of the Center for Defense Information in the U.S. told PBS, "The history of multi-role fighters, even for single services, is terrible. They do nothing well. ... The F-35 never will be able to fulfil its mission, because it is too heavy to fight other aircraft in the air, but too fast, thin-skinned and lightly armed to support troops on the ground." - http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17363&view=findpost&p=626929

Agreed, but that isn't the issue is it, at least not for Canadians... But I DISAGREE that todays economic and political conditions in our TWO countries don't have a bearing on the overall outcome...

Wishful thinking doesn't alter FACTS... http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17363&view=findpost&p=626929

No problem, as I've already previously addressed that very issue... The much BIGGER problem for Canada being "what if" countries like GB and Australia, which YOU yourself pointed out, choose "other options" in aircraft to meet their needs and Canada is "forced" to COMPLETELY "do without" a replacement for their aged and ageing CF-18s or PAY THROUGH THE NOSE at CANADIAN TAXPAYERS EXPENSE for F-35(A) fighters in a quantity that may be totally insignificant to ANYONE'S benefit...

Exactly right, and exactly my point...

- WHICH IS to say: it is the government’s defense of her, more even than the minister’s misconduct, that is now the issue. Ministers in any government will screw up from time to time. Some will even lie. That is fallible humanity. But when they are caught, when the jig is up, when there are no longer any lies to be told, it is to be expected — it has always been expected — that consequences should follow. At the least, one could expect the government to acknowledge that what she did was wrong — or at the very least, to acknowledge that she did it. - From: http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/02/16/a-test-of-our-democracy/

Perfectly understandable...

I agree, well put... I agree on the main point somewhat but to me there's a BIG BUT... If we're talking about Afghanistan and Irag that "Blood and Treasure" pertaining to U.S. wars and interests has been PAID by other countries as well in support of U.S. interests, and to a MUCH SMALLER degree their own interests... A second concern I have is that in BOTH Iraq and even more so Afghanistan the jury is very much still out as to exactly what LEVEL OF SUCCESS will have been achieved in either country... I for one am less than pleased regarding the Karzai government and I'm not alone - - But he said the whole strategy could fail if Karzai does not do more to fight corruption in his brother's southern fiefdom. "We will be unable to succeed in Kandahar if we cannot eliminate a vast majority of corruption there and set up a legitimate governance structure," he told reporters. "If we can't do that there, then we will not be able to succeed. We can succeed militarily, but it's not going to work. That's just a fact." Asked if Ahmad Wali Karzai should be sidelined, Mullen said: "I think that's something that President Karzai's going to have to figure out ... addressing the corruption and governance issues in Kandahar. It's not for us to figure out." But a senior U.S. military official went further. "I'd like him out of there," the official said on condition of anonymity, talking of Ahmad Wali Karzai. "We'd rather not have a guy like that down there because he's so divisive. But there's nothing that we can do unless we can link him to the insurgency, then we can put him on the (target list) and capture and kill him," the official said. - http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/29/us-afghanistan-usa-mullen-idUSTRE62S0BG20100329 Then there's Iraq where a LOT of problems remain... Where events like those in Egypt will have a direct bearing on Iraq because of the "mix" of Shiite, Sunni and Kurds that make up the population of Iraq... An "age old" problem that remains and may or may not ever be resolved to the "satisfaction" of U.S. and "western" interests... eg - 2011 will be addressing problems in Iraq Wednesday, February 9th 2011 9:52 PM - Osama al-Najafi said in a press conference held after his meeting with the religious authority, Mohammed Isehaq Al-Fayad,at the presence of AKnews correspondent that "the visit aimed at identifying the real problems experienced by the province." "The religious authority, Mohammed Isehaq Al-Fayad talked about the people suffering and the problems in Iraq, gave a realistic diagnoses about thecorruption problem in the country, as well as talking about the high salaries of special grades." "I informed the religious authority that a law will be initiated in the parliament in the near future to reduce the salaries of special grades," stressing that "the views were close and consistent and we have benefited from them a lot." -

Not to mention funding ARENAS and the like - kinda shows where the CONS priorities lie...

Hmmmm, interesting, so by those same standards you'd have no problem applying the same criteria to Lyin' Brian Moroney and the ENTIRE AirBus affair involving BILLIONS right? Good, lets get THAT money back...

I am well aware... I'm also aware of the U.S.'s political climate which will have a tremendous bearing on projects like the F-35 and their escalating costs going forward... The "big picture" between the "Bush Era" and today are quite different as is the "will" of the American public towards wars and Military spending... Military spending is no longer the "untouchable" it once was... That worries me... Nothing there I wasn't aware of or disagree with... However none of it applies exclusively to the F-35 since the "package" will also include the F/A-18 E/F and any "new tech" airframes, like unmanned fighters, going forward over at least the next 20 years... House votes to end F-35 secondary engine program - In the end, even the Pentagon wanted to bin it. President Barack Obama and the Republican-controlled House of Representatives today reached a compromise and axed the $450 million F-35 General Electric (GE) F136 jet engine program, which funded the construction of a secondary powerplant for the F-35 Lightning II fighter based on technology from GE and Rolls-Royce. Both the Obama and the Bush administration had fought to terminate the program. Even after Defense Secretary Robert Gates removed it from the Pentagon's funding requests, congress reinserted it a few years ago. The final vote in the House stood at 233-198, with newly-elected, budget-hawk Republicans crossing the aisle to vote with liberal Democrats opposed to continued increases in expenditure on military hardware. The newly-instated Republican Speaker of the House, John Boehner of Ohio, voted against stripping the funding. GE and Rolls-Royce had pledged to bring jobs to Ohio, Indiana and more than a dozen other states. Pratt & Whitney, a division of United Technologies Corporation (UTC), is the manufacturer of the F-35's current engine. The firm said that GE's engine would just draw jobs away from their own manufacturing plants. The F-35 already has a functioning engine, the P&W F135. However, the F136 the project's supporters said that competition between suppliers would ultimately lower costs for the government. - If costs and economic conditions in the U.S., Canada and the rest of "the western world" weren't the factor they are I'd agree with you... The world economic conditions, particularily in the U.S., will determine whether or not the F-35 flies, in what form, in what numbers, and by whom... You may want to read this, all of it, to understand what I'm saying - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-35-program.htm - Ashton B. Carter, undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics, said in a briefing at the Pentagon March 12, 2010 that the Defense Department will require a shift to a fixed-price contract in its negotiations with Lockheed Martin for the initial production phase of the F-35 Lightning II joint strike fighter. The department also will conduct an internal analysis of what the full production cost should be to better negotiate with the contractor. Taken together, Carter said, these measures will reduce costs of a program that has met with significant production delays and cost overruns since its inception in October 2001. “The secretary believed -- and this is a principle that's important -- that the investments needed to get back the development schedule oughtn't to be made solely by the taxpayer -- that the responsibility for that should be shared, and it is being shared, with the contractor,” Carter said. With this announcement, the department is moving away from a cost-plus arrangement, which reimburses companies for their expenses in addition to providing an extra payment to guarantee them a profit. Instead, in switching to a fixed-price structure, the department and the contractor will set the price beforehand, and the final payment will not depend on the total amount of time or resources expended to complete the project. The director of defense procurement and acquisition policy will conduct the “should-cost” analysis for the final production rollout of the F-35 aircraft. Carter stressed that it’s important for the department to have its own estimate of what the program’s cost should be to better determine a negotiated price, rather than relying solely on the contractor’s figures. “We will be looking at the cost structure of [the joint strike fighter] in all its aspects – assembly, parts supplies, staffing, overheads and indirect costs, cash flows, contract structures, fees, and lifecycle costs,” Carter said in a prepared statement before the Senate Armed Services committee yesterday. Rather than wait for the program to cross the Nunn-McCurdy line, the defense officials began to review and restructure it as though it was already in Nunn-McCurdy breach. Carter said he understands that these new initiatives will not be easy for Lockheed and its subcontractors to accommodate, but he underscored that these decisions are crucial to moving the program forward in a way that is acceptable to the military and the American public - The plain FACT is that countries like Canada could end up holding the short end of the stick and get stuck with TREMENDOUS costs just to get the F-35s they NEED because countries like Canada will not have any other options at that point in TIME... What is the F-35 Lightning II? - It is a stealth fighter aircraft with one engine and one seat. In March, U.S. Defence Secretary Robert Gates said "it will become the backbone of U.S. air combat for the next generation." The F-35 is scheduled to go into service in 2011. Lockheed Martin is the prime contractor. - - But expert Winslow Wheeler of the Center for Defense Information in the U.S. told PBS, "The history of multi-role fighters, even for single services, is terrible. They do nothing well. ... The F-35 never will be able to fulfil its mission, because it is too heavy to fight other aircraft in the air, but too fast, thin-skinned and lightly armed to support troops on the ground." - - What does it cost? The JSF is widely reported to be the most expensive military program ever — and costs are rising. One of the problems, Gates said in March, is "overly rosy forecasts by the program office itself." In June estimates of the cost of the American program rose again, to $382 billion US for 2,457 aircraft. That averages $155.5 million US per plane. In Canada, the Department of National Defence reports it will spend about $9 billion for its 65 F-35s. That works out to about $138.5 million per aircraft. The cost could double when a maintenance contract is added. Bill Sweetman of Aviation Week, the author of two books on the F-35, says the rising costs of the fighter jet could be a "death spiral." "The risk is that as the unit costs go up numbers come down, can the production process adapt?," Sweetman said in a telephone interview with CBC News. - It's happened before... Is that truly something you recommend that the Canadian Government and it's TAXPAYERS should do? As I've been saying throughout, I'm concerned about what's BEST for CANADA and NOT what's best for the U.S., NATO, or any other foreign entity...

No prob Jack, I'm sure that you realize from our previous "conversations" my sentiments were NOT directed at you (even tho you're a Hamilton "pussy cat" lover, I can forgive you for that, at least until the season starts)...

Got no answers, thanks for the confirmation...

I think he meant PM MORONey and Gomery but got his parties and scandals mixed up, it happens...

To make it easier to answer I'll repeat my questions... Are simple answers beyond you comprehension? It seems even the simplest of things are far beyond your understanding, or is it more a matter of your not liking the answers you've been getting? So is it simple mindedness or feeblemindedness in your particular case?

Are you stupid, or just acting that way? Honest question...