Derek 2.0

So you would have a Government funded yard to fix navy ships.......sounds reasonable if we had one on each coast.......only problem, when there isn't a requirement to conduct major repairs, what would your workforce do? What about a civilian yard, on each coast, that can repair or build Government of Canada vessels, and when its not doing so, can compete in the refitting and construction of civilian ships? We could call it the National Ship building and strategy.......oh wait

So? We didn't have a ship building industry capable of building such vessels ten years ago, nor did the RCN have a clear definition approved by the Government, instead, saddled with past Liberal wet-farts in brown paper bags.... Who would have built them domestically earlier? The Royal Canadian Navy, nor the Government of Canada, are at fault for a series of accidents that befell both supply ships, cutting both vessels remaining service lives early. There of course was no requirement to procure interim types "years ago", when we then had two serviceable AORs. Hindsight is a bitch. Yet SEASPAN has made the required upgrades in its Vancouver yard to produce its share, well still completing its share of FELEX and the Victoria class upgrade......... Who would you have had build said ships earlier? Not a chance......you've already admitted the subs will go (and they would), in effect, eliminating our most capable offensive/sea denial and ISR platforms, and yet suggest the Navy will do good under an NDP Government

No defined requirements? There are very clear and defined requirements put for by the navy..........the commitment for a total figure is honest, as the total end result will be defined by the actual production cost.......clearly the Government is not going to write 15 vessels in stone without a firm price tag from industry, for fear of seeing them costing upwards of 5 billion each like a Zumwalt DDG. Explain how they have failed.

Anyone could, but they would be an ass.........the Conservatives have a clearly outlined plan on the direction of the Canadian Forces.........and how have the Conservatives dropped the ball? You realize the first AOPS is being built, and interim AOR was just funded and SEASPAN has already started on the West Coast their work share of the National Shipbuilding Strategy.......... As I said, show me one modern navy, without a viable domestic shipbuilding industry, that can put first rate hulls in the water inside a decade.......The Royal Navy started designing the Type 45s in the 80s, only to commission HMS Daring over 20 years later........and they have a shipbuilding industry.

No there isn't, of course, you could start by providing actual commitments by the NDP on the direction they feel the navy will actually go, as opposed to vague cliches aligning with the dogma of their leftist, anti-war, base.

Define "Improving" and "fixing".

A political stick to wack the Government with...........

Without Canadian defense contracts, Colt Canada would cease to exist........even the future of Colt itself is in doubt after losing several DoD bids. ------- We do perform routine repairs, but major repairs are far more efficient in the hands of private industry.........and of course, when private yards aren't fixing Government ships, their expertise allows them to bid on commercial refits.

I just accepted your uncited link you got from Socialist, which confirms exactly that........

Except past policy papers and statements for their intended purpose of the Canadian Forces.......

They don't care........they Oppose the Government.......if the Government stated they intended to lease six Burke destroyers from the Americans, they would oppose that too

No, the new navy will mimic the Irish "Naval" service......of which has little need for anti-ship missiles, air defense or anti-submarine warfare armed vessels......You just provided, what you feel is a current platform, which aligns with past NDP policy papers, in addition to NDP "defense experts" (Steven Staples and Mike Byers) statements on their vision of a future force.........

What NDP policy aligns with costly guided missile frigates and destroyers to support UN Peacekeeping and domestic disaster operations.....when said missions can be done with far cheaper OPV or cutters? The subs will go right away, and the frigates will stagnate until replaced by cheerful fisheries patrol vessels........

Fair enough.

What election promise? The NDP policy manual was posted by Socialist in another thread: That reads like the 2011 policy paper, but if current......points "C", "D", "E" and "F" should very much read as worrisome to the RCN.........why does the RCN need subs and guided missile destroyers and frigates to defend our waters and conduct UN peace keeping overseas? NDP= No subs, no destroyers and no frigates........to be replaced by cutters. Apply that to the Army, which will no longer need expensive tanks, upgraded LAVs, TLAVs, heavy support weapons and artillery to act as Peacekeepers or to fight forest fires. To the RCAF, there will be no longer a need for the expensive fighter force (New Zealand and Ireland don't have one after all!!!), likewise the CP-140s can be replaced with unarmed, Quebec produced, DASH 8s, since we won't need a war fighting capability......no need for the expensive mission suite for the Cyclones, since we won't be conducting ASW operations......why do we need all those aggressive looking CH-146s? Surely we could retire/sell half, and use the remainder for SAR...... As I've said, if you truly think the NDP would not be a disaster on the Forces........

In the event of a major war, what solace would you have in knowing, for example, when you broke your C7 it had to be sent to Korea to be fixed? We could certainly replace the C7/C8s with a far cheaper Chinese rifle......how does that grab you? It would avoid corporate welfare to Colt Canada....

Why do we need two shipbuilding programs? If more ships are eventually needed, why can't they be included in the already existing program?

Why?

Except procurement expenditures, which are precluded from the the annual operating budget? BS!!! You've been asked to cite the current NDP's defense policies.......not make stuff up. The last NDP policy platform clearly stated halting all current procurement programs until a review of defense policy is complete........unless you can provide newer, contrary info.

I'm largely opposed to protectionism, but in the case of warship construction, we most certainly could purchase cheaper vessels offshore, but in doing so, will result in the demise of the remaining shipbuilding industry in Canada. With the demise of shipbuilding as a whole, so to goes the ability to repair our own ships.......and that is a strategic mistake......hence we pay a premium for domestically produced ships........like we do we with other Canadian industries or Canadian subsidiaries of Western Defense giants. First, comparing media reports of other nation's purchases is a fools errand.......in most cases, said price tags aren't inclusive of subsidies to industry, training or operating costs (like how programs in Canada must include said figures) Second, with the British example, as already noted, their AORs are operated by the civilian staffed Royal Fleet Auxiliary. The ships they are producing will be less capable (built to civilian standards also) then our eventual Queenston class. Likewise, the British shipbuilding industry receives large subsidies from the HM Government and though in a period of decline since the 1970s, has been continually building ships as opposed to a boom-bust cycle like what we have in Canada Why a separate program?

Simple, continual investment in defense with the Tories, stagnation (at best) under the Liberals and a neutering by the NDP......... As to the eventual NDP win, look no further than former Prime Minister Ed Broadbent's reign after winning the 1988 election, a win which saw the NDP leading in opinion polls going all the way back to 1987...........

Layton's proposal to turn the Forces into a lightly armed Red Cross and focus the force domestically to address floods and forest fires? The same policy statement would have halted all procurement programs well the NDP released a "White Orange Paper" rewriting the intent of the Canadian Forces, a professional force designed to kill people and break stuff, into one of social justice at the behest of the United Nations? Or the one that would halt off-shore procurement in favor of Made-in Canada solutions? That NDP policy statement?

What plan?

Bingo......and the NDP would see a big juicy target for funding their social programs in DND.

You understand what Jack Harris title is right? NDP defense critic. That said, I'd be willing to listen to any suggestions or planned policies Jack Harris and the NDP have........oddly enough, the NDP's previous defense policies are no longer readily available on their website......