ASIP

I base my conclusion on photographs, videos, discussions on forums and official information from government sources. Neither I unequivocally believe. But after comparing several dozens of various reports you can have an idea what is going on. Nobody has the proof that the plane was shot down. I think rebels will clear the site from the missile debris. They know the drill - they do that every day in the occupied cities. According to all non-contradictory evidence the plane was shot down by a single shot by a Buk launching vehicle operated by three officers of Russian army. The launch site was pin-pointed by the American intelligence. It was on the south side of the rebel-controlled territory between towns of Torez and Snezhnoe. A photograph of the smoke trail came from the same place. The vehicle arrived a day before and after firing was seen near Snezhnoe moving towards the Russian border. I have not seen any good photographs with clear shrapnel traces. But there is a photograph of a white wing part with clear rubbing marks having dark green paint, exactly the color of Buk missiles. All this information is easily available on Internet.

Seems to me you are not reading original posts and switching topics on a fly. Let me explain: I am not here to convince you or anybody in something. You and 99.9% of guys on the forum have, may be, 1/100 or 1/1000 of information I have. This is due to your inability to read and understand Russian and Ukrainian sources. I report what it is. You may not believe me. I do not care.

One more time: I should not prove that does not exists. This is impossible in principle. If you cannot prove your claim, you'd rather not to claim those things. How could you learn to launch missiles and hit targets without exercise?

A fragment from 9:30 to 11:40. Further comments are partially in Ukrainian.

You missed the point. 1. These are not army. These are border guards and jail guards. 2. They did not switched to rebels.

No-one should prove that does not exist. If you claim that a rebel could operate a Buk system - you should prove that. Otherwise your assertions are no better than assuming Martians did that. Have there been any Buk exercise in Ukraine in recent years?

Are you serious? Can you drive a tank? What about a fighter jet? Or you see no difference between a machine gun and a rocket launcher? The rebels "army" never had more than a couple of thousands of former conscripts in its ranks. They are all dead or wounded by now. There is a negligible probability that some of them served as Buk operators. None of them had enough expertise to score a hit from the Buk.

If you mean taken in Donetsk, the vehicle was disabled and not working. Rebels told that in an interview. And no missiles. Your claim was about missiles - your claim is wrong.

Do you understand Russian speech?

Big anti-aircraft systems like the Buk are "items of special control." They are heavily observed. If there is an immediate possibility of capture, a gurd unit must destroy them. There was no report of capture of any working Buk system even by rebels. After the aircraft crash, the Ukrainian army confirmed that all Buk missiles are in place.

I did. Oh, I see, you probably don't know the difference between a "missile" and a "missile launcher" . The rebels really got access to a junk yard with the remains of that launcher, but you claimed they took missiles. With no missile you cannot shoot down the plane. Right?

This never happened. Ukrainian army is in no way broken. Quite an opposite is the case.

I've just reported official information from the chief of Ukrainian security service. The telephone calls are on youtube.

You have no idea what you are talking about. When? Where? Are you sure you are not dreaming?

Wow, you know a fact of a big anti-aircraft missile lost by the Ukrainian army? Please tell us!

It is absolutely unreasonable to assume that an alcoholic or a thug (this is the local content of the rebels) could score a hit from a complex anti-aircraft system, which he never used when served in the armed forces. I would gladly withdraw my objections if you give me some statistics on Buk exercises in Ukrainian army recently and show me at least one former Buk operator among rebels. By the way, how many people is required to launch a Buk missile? Yep. Telephone intercepts, photos and videos.

This is impossible scenario. Have you ever seen a control station inside the Buk launcher vehicle? I bet you have not. A launch (and a hit) can be conducted only by a trained crew. Especially when not having support from the two big radars normally used for firing. They must be professionals. This crew of three officers arrived from Russia together with the vehicle and missiles. Ukrainians intercepted a telephone call of the trucker who delivered the vehicle across the Ukrainian border. The trucker was asking about further instructions. When asked he confirmed that the crew is near the vehicle. Of course, they shot down the plane not recognizing it was civilian. It could be due to limited capabilities of the systems in the launcher vehicle.

ThIs is not true. Rebels took no Buk missiles from any military base. They absolutely could not do that.

Or Martians could have transfered them to so called rebels... Anti-aircraft missiles like this are not toys. Ukrainian army is not that bad. Your assertion is 100% wrong.

A collection of facts. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/07/229270.htm

I can bet that 99.9% of information that comes from .ru domain is a lie.

Hi Alex, could I ask you where you have lived in Russia? What is your relation to Kiev?

Sure, there is some local support for the separatists. However, in the over 6-million people region separatists manage to assemble about 2,000 men militia. This is a bullet-proof fact. There is no popular support for the separatists. Even Putin has accepted that. You can find this number of freaks and criminals in any country of this size. Their relative longevity is due to that they keep 2 million civilian people hostages. They hide in cities, behind women and children. They are terrorist. Another factor is that the Ukrainian army and national security forces have been deliberately destroyed by the pro-Russian government for the last four years. In this April it became clear that Ukraine does not have an army. The army is being created right now, in the situation of the terrorist attack of unprecedented scale. Not a single country has ever fought this type of war. Israel is the closest example, but it is still not a match to that Ukraine is encountering. Your assertion of "occupation" has nothing to do to reality. Ukrainian people is cleaning their land from a plague brought from Russia.

Actually, the girl is not a pilot. Nevertheless, she's a very interesting person. A real professional soldier. Her example displays a direct link between Kremlin and militants in Eastern Ukraine.

There is no any ethnic aspect in the fighting. There is no need for UN peace keepers. If Ukraine will manage to close its border with Russia from permanent supply of militants, ammunition and heavy arms, the conflict will die within a couple of weeks. Ordinary people are tired of hardship brought by pro-Russian separatists and Russian militants. I would recommend you to look at the map. Those two oblasts in no way can be a buffer between Kiev and Moscow. Purely geographically. The rebels hold just an approx. 200-km wide strip from the border westward. The "buffer" was not the Putin's goal. The goal was a land corridor to Crimea. Without a link to Russia, Crimea cannot develop economically. This is why Soviet government reassigned administrative subordination of Crimea to Ukraine.