Muslims and Tolerance

[sami]

I appreciate that point of view, but she's not going as far as to blame Muslims themselves for the situation.

Well intentioned Irshad Manji mixes legitimate concerns with radical, misinformed opinions through out her book. She was exposed to radical ultra-conservative form of Islam called Wahabiism (a Saudi based misguided form of Islam that has grown popular among many Muslim extremist.) Her experiences with this distorted view have tainted her observations. Her statement that Muslims do not know how to dissent, debate, revise or reform is laughable if you have spent any time in any number of Muslim societies, universities, or mosques. Debates between conservatives and progressives have gone on for centuries.

Is She aware of what Ijtihad is? Defined by liberal Muslims who drop traditional interpretations of the Qur’an which they find have been taken too literally and do not fit within the a modern society. This form of progression has been part of Islam since the 10th century.

Has she ever been to Pakistan and visted Lahore or Karachi and seen many gay couples living together openly and being quietly accepted in a soceity. Though the laws of the these countries have been shaped by extremist parties of the past. The moderates are slowly making changes.

Does she know that in Turkey, Jordan, Eygpt, or Mali it is no longer against the law to be Gay? This is the progressive movement that she claims does not exist.

I don’t think she understands that extremism is losing this battle whatever extremist or western hawks want to believe. The well funded Wahabhi movement has set Islam back in the later 20th century, but this cult even with it’s propaganda machine is not sustainable over the long run. A decade from now Islam extremism will be the past.

One thing I do agree with Manji is this quote:

"Iran provides the best hope for progressive Islam,''

I think before buying into Irshad Manji’s “Trouble with Islam” , if you truly want to learn about the liberal movement, here are two books I would recommend:

Progressive Muslims: On Justice, Gender, and Pluralism by Omid Safi (a great Islamic scholar)

The Unthought in Contemporary Islamic Thought, by Mohammed Arkoun.

An interesting, if flawed, book on the dominance of certain cultures on the world stage is Guns, Germs, and Steel. It examines how different cultures thrived, or fell based on certain factors. It even acknowledges the relative superiority of the Christian view in fostering an economically beneficial environment.

But ridiculing or blaming any group, as Steyn does, is smug, divisive and destructive.

Fantastic read. Jarrod Diamond is one of the greatest minds of today.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Is She aware of what Ijtihad is?

She writes at length about it and how it must be revitalized.

another great quote:

Why I'm struggling with Islam

Irshad, Deeyah and Donya

As refugees from Idi Amin's Uganda, my family and I settled just outside of Vancouver in 1972. I grew up attending two types of schools: the secular public school of most North American kids and then, for several hours at a stretch every Saturday, the Islamic religious school (madressa).

I couldn't quite reconcile the open and tolerant world of my public school with the rigid and bigoted world inside my madressa. But I had enough faith to ask questions -- plenty of them.

My first question for my madressa teacher was, "Why can't girls lead prayer?" I graduated to asking more nuanced questions, such as, "If the Koran came to Prophet Muhammad as a message of peace, why did he command his army to kill an entire Jewish tribe?"

You can imagine that such questions irritated the hell out of my madressa teacher, who routinely put down women and trashed the Jews. He and I reached the ultimate impasse over yet another question: "Where," I asked, "is the evidence of the 'Jewish conspiracy' against Islam? You love to talk about it, but what's the proof?" That question, posed at the age of 14, got me booted out of the madressa. Permanently.

[sami]

Is She aware of what Ijtihad is?

She writes at length about it and how it must be revitalized.

I stand corrected. Maybe we(her and I) have more in common then I thought. Accept I am not a lesbian.

[Montgomery Burns]

Jerry Seinfeld:

When will people stop apologizing for Muslim violence and start condemning it.

They're too busy condemning a couple of abortion-doctor killers and condemning the Crusades from centuries of years ago, the same Crusades that the new Pope says were wars fought with the noble aim of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity. Link

A good book is The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and The Crusades)

[JerrySeinfeld]

Jerry Seinfeld:

When will people stop apologizing for Muslim violence and start condemning it.

They're too busy condemning a couple of abortion-doctor killers and condemning the Crusades from centuries of years ago, the same Crusades that the new Pope says were wars fought with the noble aim of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity. Link

A good book is The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and The Crusades)

ahhh yes, the crusades.

perhaps muslims are still living in the dark ages...which would make it a fair comparison.

[Guest Warwick Green]

hey're too busy condemning a couple of abortion-doctor killers and condemning the Crusades from centuries of years ago, the same Crusades that the new Pope says were wars fought with the noble aim of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity

If would be difficult to see the Pope as an unbiased observer in all this. I was taught the conventional message about the Crusades in school. Fighting to reclaim the land Jesus was born in from the infidels.

So a few people got killed. They were only heathens. :angry:

[JerrySeinfeld]

hey're too busy condemning a couple of abortion-doctor killers and condemning the Crusades from centuries of years ago, the same Crusades that the new Pope says were wars fought with the noble aim of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity

If would be difficult to see the Pope as an unbiased observer in all this. I was taught the conventional message about the Crusades in school. Fighting to reclaim the land Jesus was born in from the infidels.

So a few people got killed. They were only heathens. :angry:

ahhhh...the crusades. I long for the good ol days

[newbie]

Hate to pick on the Catholics, but there is that nasty bit about the Spanish Inquisition, Pope Pius XII refusing to mention and express disgust over Jewish extermination, and of course Benedict XV Nazi past.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Hate to pick on the Catholics, but there is that nasty bit about the Spanish Inquisition, Pope Pius XII refusing to mention and express disgust over Jewish extermination, and of course Benedict XV Nazi past.

Yes...there is those.

Now if we'dall start acting like the catholics circa 1100 we'd be on par with present day muslims!

[geoffrey]

Hate to pick on the Catholics, but there is that nasty bit about the Spanish Inquisition, Pope Pius XII refusing to mention and express disgust over Jewish extermination, and of course Benedict XV Nazi past.

Benedict XV was a grand humanitarian and strong critic of war. Where is this Nazi past? He died in 1922?

Are you just making this stuff up now?

[JerrySeinfeld]

Hate to pick on the Catholics, but there is that nasty bit about the Spanish Inquisition, Pope Pius XII refusing to mention and express disgust over Jewish extermination, and of course Benedict XV Nazi past.

Benedict XV was a grand humanitarian and strong critic of war. Where is this Nazi past? He died in 1922?

Are you just making this stuff up now?

Seriously G, when people start bringing up shit from centuries past to compare to present day muslim violence, the argument is weak.

[sami]

I am sorry guys, but your attempts to claim Muslims as violent in comparison to other elements this centuries is borderline ridiculous.

You have Nazi’s killing millions of Jews, Serbs killing hundreds of thousands of Muslims, Hutu killing hundreds of thousands Tutsis and Islam is a violent religion? Sure we got our blood thirsty terrorists and some intolerance but we got long way to go before taking that most violent crown. If you want to talk in terms religion dominating foreign policy then there has been no religion more violent then Christianity in the past and even today.

[Leafless]

sami

You wrote- " I am sorry guys, but your attempt to claim Muslims as violent in comparison to other elements this centuries is borderline ridiculous."

What are you saying sami??

Many wars include genocide or ethnic cleansing.

What Mulims are doing following Islam is trying to dominate the world incorporating outright fear.

Their doing this without a military, just a gang of extremist thinking they are accomplishing something by blowing themselves up in crowds of people with only the prospect of being rewarded by 'virgin's in heaven'.

Pretty sick, pretty violent and defies all logic.

But worse still is this is a highly organized effort and should be treated as an 'act of war' and treated as such by any country that is affected by these 'gangs of murderous cowards' against the source country of these deranged people.

[sami]

What Mulims are doing following Islam is trying to dominate the world incorporating outright fear.

What the Muslim world is trying to do, (some of which are misguided in their attempts) is defend itself from what it considers a second crusade. Muslim extremists do not want to invade the west. They want the west to leave their countries, to stop being hypocrites preaching democracy out of one mouth and supporting totalitarian states out the other. To stop helping dictatorships suppress the will of their own people just for the benefit of their western buddies. ME countries have every right to fear the west. Our policies are made only to benefit us. If it is in our interests we will buddy up with anyone regardless of if they don’t stand for our principles. This fear and suppression and poverty and war and death contributed to the extremist movement in the ME. But instead of taking some ownership, we have decided to blame the religion. Ignoring these facts does not automatically justify your position. This is a fundamental cause of where we are today.

[Wilber]

hey're too busy condemning a couple of abortion-doctor killers and condemning the Crusades from centuries of years ago, the same Crusades that the new Pope says were wars fought with the noble aim of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity

If would be difficult to see the Pope as an unbiased observer in all this. I was taught the conventional message about the Crusades in school. Fighting to reclaim the land Jesus was born in from the infidels.

So a few people got killed. They were only heathens. :angry:

Only half were heathens, the other half were infidels.

[Riverwind]

This fear and suppression and poverty and war and death contributed to the extremist movement in the ME. But instead of taking some ownership, we have decided to blame the religion. Ignoring these facts does not automatically justify your position. This is a fundamental cause of where we are today.

Well said Sami. However, I would emphasize that cold blooded murder can never be justified in the name of god, freedom or any other cause and what the terrorists are doing is cold blooded murder. Furthermore, if the hatred directed at the US was directed at the puppet dictators in the ME, these ME dictators would fall fairly quickly (just look at what public protect accomplished in most of the former SSRs - places with no history of democracy). A big part of the 'root' causes in the ME is the culture of victimization which has infested the Islamic world for the last 500 years.

[Leafless]

sami

You wrote- " What the Muslim world is trying to do is defend itself from what it considers itself as a second crusade."

This is right out of the pages of ' tales of fiction'.

You also wrote- " Our policies are made only to benefit us."

And that's what the problem is.

Your policies are all based on one common denominator, 'hate'.

[Army Guy]

What the Muslim world is trying to do, (some of which are misguided in their attempts) is defend itself from what it considers a second crusade. Muslim extremists do not want to invade the west. They want the west to leave their countries, to stop being hypocrites preaching democracy out of one mouth and supporting totalitarian states out the other.

A second crusade in which way ? Muslims extremist have brought the war to the west, in more ways than (9/11). and what do you mean having the west leave thier countries , do you mean western military forces or are you applying all western companys ,civilians etc, please explain. as for being hypocrites i will agree the west has in the past formed relations with some unsaviory ME dictators. but then again most ME countries have engaged in the same process "acted when ever it benifits thier own state" or own means.

To stop helping dictatorships suppress the will of their own people just for the benefit of their western buddies.

And Iran would be an example of this, Syria, there is a few more...ME has a long history of dictatorships that the west has not had hand in creating . These nations have no problem supressing thier own people for thier own gains. These dictatorships thrive because the people of those nations allow it, not because they are supported by the west or east for that matter. ME history is full of examples of ME countries throwing of the yokes of the west or east.

This fear and suppression and poverty and war and death contributed to the extremist movement in the ME. But instead of taking some ownership, we have decided to blame the religion. Ignoring these facts does not automatically justify your position. This is a fundamental cause of where we are today.

Yes the west has some ownership in some of the problems in the ME, But to sit there and blame just the west for all thier problems is just fantasy...We have not decided to blame religion, ME countries are using religion to spread thier messages, to recruit, and to kill why would we not blame religion.

Stop blaming the west for all the problems in the world, let the ME take ownership of thier own problems and find thier own solutions.

[sami]

This fear and suppression and poverty and war and death contributed to the extremist movement in the ME. But instead of taking some ownership, we have decided to blame the religion. Ignoring these facts does not automatically justify your position. This is a fundamental cause of where we are today.

Well said Sami. However, I would emphasize that cold blooded murder can never be justified in the name of god, freedom or any other cause and what the terrorists are doing is cold blooded murder. Furthermore, if the hatred directed at the US was directed at the puppet dictators in the ME, these ME dictators would fall fairly quickly (just look at what public protect accomplished in most of the former SSRs - places with no history of democracy). A big part of the 'root' causes in the ME is the culture of victimization which has infested the Islamic world for the last 500 years.

100% true. I am never justifying the terrorism. It is a virus. But like all virus you can not cure it until you fully understand it. I am looking at the cause.

I partially agree with you. However, there are some important facts that must be highlighted. For one, more Muslims die from Islamic extremism then any one else. Would it be fair to say that 95% percent of all terrorist acts take place in Muslim countries and target fellow Muslims? i.e ) Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

I feel the extremist intentions are to overthrow their own governments. The US is more a target of opportunity to wane support for these governments and deflect public attention away from their true goal which is conservative Islamic rule over secular rule. As for victimization, with two Muslim countries currently under US occupation, it feeds that fear and paranoia.

[JerrySeinfeld]

This fear and suppression and poverty and war and death contributed to the extremist movement in the ME. But instead of taking some ownership, we have decided to blame the religion. Ignoring these facts does not automatically justify your position. This is a fundamental cause of where we are today.

Well said Sami. However, I would emphasize that cold blooded murder can never be justified in the name of god, freedom or any other cause and what the terrorists are doing is cold blooded murder. Furthermore, if the hatred directed at the US was directed at the puppet dictators in the ME, these ME dictators would fall fairly quickly (just look at what public protect accomplished in most of the former SSRs - places with no history of democracy). A big part of the 'root' causes in the ME is the culture of victimization which has infested the Islamic world for the last 500 years.

100% true. I am never justifying the terrorism. It is a virus. But like all virus you can not cure it until you fully understand it. I am looking at the cause.

I partially agree with you. However, there are some important facts that must be highlighted. For one, more Muslims die from Islamic extremism then any one else. Would it be fair to say that 95% percent of all terrorist acts take place in Muslim countries and target fellow Muslims? i.e ) Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

I feel the extremist intentions are to overthrow their own governments. The US is more a target of opportunity to wane support for these governments and deflect public attention away from their true goal which is conservative Islamic rule over secular rule. As for victimization, with two Muslim countries currently under US occupation, it feeds that fear and paranoia.

Sami while you're intentions sound genuine I don't think you totall get the whole terrorist thing.

I saw a Passionate Eye hidden camera documentary Inside Al Qaeda where a muslim man posed as a potential Al Qaeda recruit and went right into their offices and taped secrety conversations.

These were offices in UK, france and other parts of europe. It was very clear the long term intention was to conquer western countries and create new muslim states, and that terrorism was a means toward this goal.

[Riverwind]

These were offices in UK, france and other parts of europe. It was very clear the long term intention was to conquer western countries and create new muslim states, and that terrorism was a means toward this goal.

Jerry, I see you are more than willing to embrace some pretty eloborate conspirasy theories as long as they fit into your belief system - maybe I should send you a tinfoil hat.

[JerrySeinfeld]

These were offices in UK, france and other parts of europe. It was very clear the long term intention was to conquer western countries and create new muslim states, and that terrorism was a means toward this goal.

Jerry, I see you are more than willing to embrace some pretty eloborate conspirasy theories as long as they fit into your belief system - maybe I should send you a tinfoil hat.

no theories here. just plain old in-the-flesh confessions.

[sami]

These were offices in UK, france and other parts of europe. It was very clear the long term intention was to conquer western countries and create new muslim states, and that terrorism was a means toward this goal.

Jerry, I see you are more than willing to embrace some pretty eloborate conspirasy theories as long as they fit into your belief system - maybe I should send you a tinfoil hat.

no theories here. just plain old in-the-flesh confessions.

bah. P Eye has also ran such jems as the 'fake moon landing'.

[JerrySeinfeld]

These were offices in UK, france and other parts of europe. It was very clear the long term intention was to conquer western countries and create new muslim states, and that terrorism was a means toward this goal.

Jerry, I see you are more than willing to embrace some pretty eloborate conspirasy theories as long as they fit into your belief system - maybe I should send you a tinfoil hat.

no theories here. just plain old in-the-flesh confessions.

bah. P Eye has also ran such jems as the 'fake moon landing'.

don't blame the messenger - all P. eye did was put these guys on screen - they did the talking for themselves

[sami]

A second crusade in which way ? Muslims extremist have brought the war to the west, in more ways than (9/11). and what do you mean having the west leave thier countries , do you mean western military forces or are you applying all western companys ,civilians etc, please explain. as for being hypocrites i will agree the west has in the past formed relations with some unsaviory ME dictators. but then again most ME countries have engaged in the same process "acted when ever it benifits thier own state" or own means.

I mean for the most part military. There is a lot of money and opportunity in the ME. Less war and more business has a way of moderating people. Also, positive US influence can help promote democracy. But again this will not happen overnight and extremism will go out kicking and screaming. You have note that western colonialism was not all that far back. Some Arabs and Indians still remember living under brutal repression for the better part of this century (Mostly British). There is still a lot of mistrust of the west and it will not simply disappear overnight.

And Iran would be an example of this, Syria, there is a few more...ME has a long history of dictatorships that the west has not had hand in creating . These nations have no problem supressing thier own people for thier own gains. These dictatorships thrive because the people of those nations allow it, not because they are supported by the west or east for that matter. ME history is full of examples of ME countries throwing of the yokes of the west or east.

Ahh. But wait. The US did support that greedy elf of shah in Iran. Who’s reign of terror and utter greed in sucking his people dry gave rise to the Islamic revolution. The US has made bad choices in the past, maybe out of shear bad luck or ignorance of the situation in the ME.

Yes the west has some ownership in some of the problems in the ME, But to sit there and blame just the west for all thier problems is just fantasy...We have not decided to blame religion, ME countries are using religion to spread thier messages, to recruit, and to kill why would we not blame religion.

Stop blaming the west for all the problems in the world, let the ME take ownership of thier own problems and find thier own solutions.

I said the west has some ownership of the issue, not all. Once again getting back to the topic of religion. I don’t understand where the notion comes from that the religion spurns the hatred when it is obvious that the hatred uses the religion to it’ own ends. The hatred is social and cultural. You will find Muslims born in the west will tend to be a lot less hateful and violent. Which make no sense if you buy into the belief that the religion is hateful. If you are taught hate you will hate regardless of where you live.