When is enough...enough?

[Hydraboss]

For any Albertans that have been following the news lately, you must have heard about the Parkland teachers strike in Stony Plain, Spruce Grove and surrounding area. So here is the latest: Teachers voted 95% to refuse the school board's latest offer that includes a 10% raise over three years. I know that they always use the catch phrases like "classroom conditions", etc, but the board came on Global news last night and finally said what the dispute is actually about.

Classroom teaching time.

Teachers want to reduce teaching time to a maximum of 24 hours per week (4.8 hours a day). Keep in mind that the average Canadian works 168 hours per month. The teachers also said that the raise was not nearly enough. So I did some base calculations, and here is what I came up with:

At the end of the three years (you know, the offer they turned down!)

$53416 Brand new teacher (0 years experience), 4 years education (basic degree)

$59336 Brand new teacher (0 years experience), 6 years education (Masters degree)

$62512 Teacher (5 years experience), 4 years education (basic degree)

$68433 Teacher (5 years experience), 6 years education (Masters degree)

$80093 Teacher (10 years experience), 4 years education (basic degree)

$86016 Teacher (10 years experience), 6 years education (Masters degree)

Now here's where the math gets interesting. If you calculate per hour earnings, the deal is an abomination.

Per hour based on the teachers' proposed working schedule (4.8 hr/day, 180.5 days per year = 866.4 hrs/year)

$61.65 Brand new teacher (0 years experience), 4 years education (basic degree)

$68.49 Brand new teacher (0 years experience), 6 years education (Masters degree)

$72.15 Teacher (5 years experience), 4 years education (basic degree)

$78.99 Teacher (5 years experience), 6 years education (Masters degree)

$92.44 Teacher (10 years experience), 4 years education (basic degree)

$99.28 Teacher (10 years experience), 6 years education (Masters degree)

Now do the calculation based on a so-called "average" Canadian (168 hr/month X 12 = 2016 hrs/year)

$24.50 non-teacher

$29.43 non-teacher

$31.01 non-teacher

$33.94 non-teacher

$39.73 non-teacher

$42.67 non-teacher

So, the question is this: Since these people are paid from my taxes (and lots of them), should we let them continue to hold our children ransom, or just give them whatever they want, suck it up, and wait for the next time that they decide they want to work less and get paid more?

As a side note, teachers are always complaining that they want pay equity with nurses. At 10 years experience, an RN in the Capital Health Authority makes about $34/hr but must work every hour that they are paid for. I think we should give them equity, and make them work for an hourly wage just like nurses.

[Hydraboss]

Sorry, forgot the link to their collective bargain (pre-agreement)

www.teachers.ab.ca

Look for Collective Bargaining and then Parkland School Division.

[Canadian Blue]

I'm originally from the Parkland area, and they had the same situation in 04/05, but narrowly averted a strike.

It seem's like quite abit of money, but I'm not aware of them only wanting to work 4.8 hours a day. It doesn't really seem though that the students are the primary concern.

[Hydraboss]

I cannot provide a link for the claim because they are in negotiations. However, the Board Chairman was on Global news at 6 last night and that is what she stated. I don't believe that these strike actions are ever about the kids or "classroom conditions". Everytime they stand on their soapbox and spout off about how it is for the kids, but then the school board offers them more money and they go back to work.

[geoffrey]

$61 an hour for a grad outta school? Not a chance.

Get back to work teachers, the public's patience with your whining is growing thin.

[blueblood]

$61 an hour for a grad outta school? Not a chance.

Get back to work teachers, the public's patience with your whining is growing thin.

your forgetting the 3 months of holiday time on top of that.

[sideshow]

I can't speak to that specific collective bargaining environment, but I do know that in my jurisdiction, they work many more than 4.8 hours a day. There are required duties of teachers which do in fact make them required to work more than the "scheduled" hours of work, so the dollar per hour figures above are actually quite skewed from reality (at least in my area). I think (if i can recall-its been a couple of years since i have read their agreements) that the wages are pretty much on par per hour with a nurse, police officer, etc.

[Remiel]

How dense do you have to be to think teachers don't do anything outside of class? Do you think those assignments and tests you did in school wrote and marked themselves? Do you think teachers just start talking at the beginning of class and just ad lib for the whole period, with no real direction? Get a grip.

[guyser]

How dense do you have to be to think teachers don't do anything outside of class? Do you think those assignments and tests you did in school wrote and marked themselves? Do you think teachers just start talking at the beginning of class and just ad lib for the whole period, with no real direction? Get a grip.

I agree with most of that, but you left out the part where they get two days off a week like the rest of us, and they get two months off like....umm...er...like no one else does. They are paid a yearly wage ( they deserve every dollar they get) but only work a ten, some say nine month year..

It always has been and always will be my belief that there is enough money going into the school system but not enough trickles down. The middle mngmt Fwads are the ones eating up valuable money and resources that the kids and teachers need.

There seems to be a slightly unfair balance in this province . I know that in recent year the Trillium/Lakelands board (Muskoka Haliburton) have kept a programme going whereby the students have electives for thursday afternoon "sessions" . These can be , downhill skiing, snowboarding, skating, rock climbing etc etc. I know of no school that does so in the GTA.

[Hydraboss]

I can't speak to that specific collective bargaining environment, but I do know that in my jurisdiction, they work many more than 4.8 hours a day. There are required duties of teachers which do in fact make them required to work more than the "scheduled" hours of work, so the dollar per hour figures above are actually quite skewed from reality (at least in my area). I think (if i can recall-its been a couple of years since i have read their agreements) that the wages are pretty much on par per hour with a nurse, police officer, etc.

The 4.8 number is what the teachers want in this new agreement. It has not been settled. For any extra-ciricular activities, teachers are paid extra.

Teachers are not paid the same as nurses, as nurses (with the exception of managers who are out-of-scope) are paid hourly for time actually worked. I cannot comment on police officers as I have not looked into it.

How dense do you have to be to think teachers don't do anything outside of class? Do you think those assignments and tests you did in school wrote and marked themselves? Do you think teachers just start talking at the beginning of class and just ad lib for the whole period, with no real direction? Get a grip.

If you are trying to argue that teachers spend a ton of time on class prep, I acknowledge that a new teacher may, but any teacher that does not have a class plan for the grade or class they have been teaching for years is either lazy or stupid. I don't believe either of these would be prevalent.

It would be unfair to make the statement that in addition to the annualized hourly wage, teachers also get the summer off. My numbers include that in the hours worked calculation (866.4 proposed). Teachers in this school area are required to work 180.5 FDE (full-day equivalent) per 12 month period. Teachers propose that those days not exceed 4.8 hours.

Incidentally, I am very familiar with teachers and their collective bargaining units. Most of my wife's family are teachers, and her father is a principal. (I have brought this up on a previous thread).

There seems to be a slightly unfair balance in this province . I know that in recent year the Trillium/Lakelands board (Muskoka Haliburton) have kept a programme going whereby the students have electives for thursday afternoon "sessions" . These can be , downhill skiing, snowboarding, skating, rock climbing etc etc. I know of no school that does so in the GTA.

These outings are considered instruction time, and are included in the proposed 866.4 hours per year.

As for marking time after class, BS!!! In the vast majority of classes that my kids and nieces/nephews take, the students do peer marking in class. Rarely, if ever, do teachers have to mark outside of a workday. That is what "prep" periods are for (and if you're a teacher, you already knew this)

[sideshow]

Police officers make in the same neighbourhood as nurses-top rate is in the 65-70 k range, and is based on roughly the same amount of hours-40 times 52 weeks minus vacation, stats, etc. numbers vary nationwide of course, but there isnt a massive difference between regions.

One of the courses i took in university was collective bargaining and the group we used at the time was the teachers and their associations contracts. i cant recall the exact specifics, but i do remember thinking that they were not as lucratively compensated as i had previously thought them to be.

as for the 3 months holidays-well i think that most professionals end up with about 2 months off a year-10 or stats, 6 or so weeks vacation, etc. so its not a massive stretch for the extra month-still an extra 4 weeks, but i would have to actually see the contract.

having been through the collective bargaining process many times myself, i will say that what the public believes, sees, and "knows", is very different from what is actually happening at the table. and both sides puff their chests up and strut around and "leak" information that is not always what it seems.

at the end of the day, the teachers have the right to job action on their terms, the employer has the right to refuse on their terms, the government has the right to legislate one way or the other on its terms, and the parents have the right to exert pressure on all sides.

not knowing ANY of the particulars, I do think that 10 percent over 3 years is a fair financial settlement-but then i dont know if there are other underlying issues that are not made public.

[Hydraboss]

I am closely involved with the public school board in my area (not Parkland) and I am privy to an eye-opening amount of "insider information".

Again, the 866.4 hours per year for teachers, and the 2016 hours per year (168 hrs/month X 12) BOTH take into account only gross earnings vs hours worked. This establishes a common grounds for comparison, and I made sure not to take into account the extras such as health plans, education allowances, etc as these are "perks" of the job and most jobs of this level have some. Fair is fair.

The 10% (compounded year over year) is absolutely fair. I received a much higher raise this year alone. That is fair bargaining. What I have a problem with is the misrepresentation by teachers (actually, the union officials) that they are overworked and not being paid what they are worth. They want "pay equity" with nurses, police, politicians, and anyone else that they think makes more money. However, they will never even acknowledge the hourly rate comparison even if that is the only common ground on which to base their "pay equity". Perhaps if they actually worked more than part time, the general public opinion would change.

As for leaking information, I always believed the statement "if you think there are two sides to every argument, you're not involved in it". Both sides are involved in active (sort of) bargaining, and therefore the BS continues. However, the Board Chair would not come out on television and say that 24 hr/week thing unless it was true. The union rep would tear her to shreds if she made a false comment to that effect.

[sideshow]

Well by the numbers you have posted, and i am confident that they are accurate, they DO receive yearly financial compensation in line with nurses, police, etc. Because unless they can show that they work MORE hours than these professions, then they will be, oh i dont know, SOL in proving their point.

As a side note, and not to knock teachers as they do have an important role in society, my personal belief is that nurses and police and fire, etc. should be compensated higher-due to many factors, not least of which is the constant dangers that they face (pathogens, violent people, etc.). As well, these other professionals end up working weekends, nights, holidays, etc-which would make sense to compensate them at a higher rate.

Just my two cents.

[Hydraboss]

Just a mathematical note:

If a registered nurse (10years experience, 4 year degree) worked 866.4 hours @ $34.00 that would equal

$29,457.60 per year.

If a teacher (10 years experience, 4 year degree) worked 866.4 hours she would receive

$80,093.00 per year.

(If nurses work 12 hour shifts, it is at straight time, not overtime. There is, however, anywhere from $1.00/hr to $2.85/hour shift differential for nights and weekend shifts. Teachers are paid on salary, but they do have to deduct for substitute teachers if they miss more than their alloted sick days.)

I agree with you on the "more important" job though. If a nurse has a bad day, someone dies. If a cop has a bad day, someone dies. If a teacher has a bad day, some kids don't learn subtraction.

[Catchme]

Yet politicians, who work less hours, spend less time on the job, have less qualtifications get a 150+k a year, with full pension after 6 yrs, are perfectly entitled, eh?

Teachers do a lot of out of hours of outside the classroom class prep, test marking, record keeping on the students, and curriculums DO NOT remain the same year after year.

Nice try skewing things against teachers with spurious information hydraboss.

[Hydraboss]

Catchme, I wouldn't pay the vast majority of politicians $150 per year, let alone $150K.

Teachers do next to nothing outside the school...classroom yes...staff room no.

Curriculums change, but not that much. I have personally laid eyes on Alberta Education cirriculum change notices, and they're not that involved. Science didn't change that much over the summer.

I will admit that my figures pale in comparison to your:

Teachers do a lot of out of hours of outside the classroom class prep, test marking, record keeping on the students,

Kinda hard to argue with hard facts like that.

Spurious....did you just learn that word, cause you sure seem to like it. Have anything to do with making a horse go faster?

[Canadian Blue]

I think politician's should only make around $60,000 to $80,000 a year.

Another thing you have to take into account is that it's Alberta, so the cost of living is going to be higher than other parts of the country.

[Remiel]

People could die as an indirect result of a teacher having a bad day, however the results are in the future, not the present. Who is to say that school violence never occures as a result of a teacher having a bad day? The butterfly effect is likely strong in teachers actions.

As for pathogens and violence, in my estimation...

The nurse is at the highest risk for pathogens, but the lowest risk for violence.

The teacher is in the middle for both pathogens and violence.

The police officer is at the highest risk for violence, and likely the lowest risk for pathogens.

I could be wrong about the pathogens, but it seems to me that a schools are classic breeding grounds for whatever the bug of the day is. A lot of people stuffed in a small space.

[Hydraboss]

In general I have no problem with how much someone, or some group, makes. Yes, Alberta is expensive. No big surprise.

What I have a problem with is when people paid by the taxes of others (in this case teachers) who work PART TIME go around whining that they don't make enough. Admit to how much you make (preferably per hour) and THEN let the tax paying public decide if you need a raise.

I cannot comment on how much working politicians should make (cause I've never heard of one ;})

[Hydraboss]

Remiel, a classroom typically is a breeding ground for low level pathogens...colds, flu, etc.

Nurses face one of the highest rates of workplace violence (for non-law enforcement employment). Upset parents, spouses, managers, etc. Just walk into any hospital in the country and look at all the "Respect in the Workplace" and "Violence Will Not Be Tolerated" signs all over the hallways and waiting rooms. I will have to find those stats on my work computer. Sorry.

Police are without a doubt at a higher risk of exposure to higher level pathogens than teachers are. Aids, Hep C, liberalism, etc. Just consider who they deal with on a daily basis. Nurses may face the same or greater risk depending on where they work. I wouldn't reasonably expect a maternity RN to be faced with a ton of HIV cases, but it could happen.

[Remiel]

You still haven't actually provided numbers to support your argument that teachers only work part time. So far all you have shown is how many hours they spend in the classroom, and that absolutely nothing on how many hours they work outside of the classroom.

[sideshow]

People could die as an indirect result of a teacher having a bad day, however the results are in the future, not the present. Who is to say that school violence never occures as a result of a teacher having a bad day? The butterfly effect is likely strong in teachers actions.

As for pathogens and violence, in my estimation...

The nurse is at the highest risk for pathogens, but the lowest risk for violence.

The teacher is in the middle for both pathogens and violence.

The police officer is at the highest risk for violence, and likely the lowest risk for pathogens.

I could be wrong about the pathogens, but it seems to me that a schools are classic breeding grounds for whatever the bug of the day is. A lot of people stuffed in a small space.

police come into DAILY contact with people with hiv, hep C, and all manner of other things. and they get spit at, bled on, urinate and feces thrown at them, etc. if anything, their contact with pathogens is as high or higher than a nurses-as the nurses deal with the patients within the hospital environment, rather than entering a residence with blood on everything, and irrational people spitting at you. by the time the nurse meets these people, they have been "socially realigned" in most cases by police to allow for the nurse to perform their duties.

and this goes for fire personel that are often the first on scene. they also are exposed to these sort of people, but yet lack the equipment and training in many instances to protect themselves.

as for violence, from what i have seen, nurses are at a higher risk than teachers. they deal day after day with belligerent drunks that are unpredictable, and sometimes not even meaning to be, are violent in action.

[Hydraboss]

Remiel,

Supply a verifiable number as to how many hours the average teacher spends outside the classroom. And, no, numbers from the ATA site are not admissable in court. That would be about as exact as asking me if I work hard.

The numbers I have provided are provable and are what the collective bargaining agreement is based on. If teachers want credit (and pay) for those "mystery" hours and hours they spend outside the classroom, then they should at the very least account for a rounded-off number in the CBA.

[sideshow]

Supply a verifiable number as to how many hours the average teacher spends outside the classroom. And, no, numbers from the ATA site are not admissable in court. That would be about as exact as asking me if I work hard.

The numbers I have provided are provable and are what the collective bargaining agreement are based on. If teachers want credit (and pay) for those "mystery" hours and hours they spend outside the classroom, then they should at the very least account for a rounded-off number in the CBA.

I would think it would be fairly easy to come up with a fair compensation package for teachers and outline in the agreement both classroom and extra curricular hours needed, and then put them in print.

[gc1765]

Per hour based on the teachers' proposed working schedule (4.8 hr/day, 180.5 days per year = 866.4 hrs/year)

You forgot to include the time that teachers spend preparing and marking. Teachers are paid well, but not as well as you would have people believe.

...not to mention supervising during lunchtime, sports, extra-cirricular activities, parent teacher nights, etc...