F35 procurement now on CPAC

[Mr.Canada]

Watch and learn about the politics of procurement. Specifically dealing with the new F35. A big issue with Canadians. Hopefully CPAC will set the record straight.

[Tilter]

The Plane is expensive. If there were any other choice all this palaver would be unnecessary because it would be put to tender. The only other A/C that are seriously competitive (and not even that) are the SU series Russian fighters and the new Chinese fighter. Do we really want to go there??

We could look at the NATO fighter (SAAB??) but it isn't 1/2 of the airplane the F35 is proving to be in it's test flights.

The British Tornado fighter is getting a lot of bad publicity for it's serviceability record and even if it were to prove to be a top fighter it is a fighter designed for a country the size of the Maritime provinces. The films of the F35 are spectacular.

We need a new fighter fleet and it must be ordered well in advance of the delivery date. As another ex-air force pilot said--- the Falcons we are flying now will be 60, yes , 60 years old at the time of the F35 delivery. The Canadian Air Force I flew with was made up largely of 2nd hand rebuilt WW2 planes we bought as USAF surplus. These planes killed many of my friends and the CF 100 planes that were newly built had enough flaws that they killed many Pilots & Air Interception Officers before they were retired.

The Armament they carried was a joke and the likelihood of the CF100 killing Russian bombers was laughable. Most of the Pilots laughingly said that the only positive way was ramming the Bears (bombers) That Russia overflew Northern areas of Canada. Let' see what Cpac shows

Edited April 25, 2011 by Tilter

[wyly]

The Plane is expensive. If there were any other choice all this palaver would be unnecessary because it would be put to tender. The only other A/C that are seriously competitive (and not even that) are the SU series Russian fighters and the new Chinese fighter. Do we really want to go there??

We could look at the NATO fighter (SAAB??) but it isn't 1/2 of the airplane the F35 is proving to be in it's test flights.

The British Tornado fighter is getting a lot of bad publicity for it's serviceability record and even if it were to prove to be a top fighter it is a fighter designed for a country the size of the Maritime provinces. The films of the F35 are spectacular.

We need a new fighter fleet and it must be ordered well in advance of the delivery date. As another ex-air force pilot said--- the Falcons we are flying now will be 60, yes , 60 years old at the time of the F35 delivery. The Canadian Air Force I flew with was made up largely of 2nd hand rebuilt WW2 planes we bought as USAF surplus. These planes killed many of my friends and the CF 100 planes that were newly built had enough flaws that they killed many Pilots & Air Interception Officers before they were retired.

The Armament they carried was a joke and the likelihood of the CF100 killing Russian bombers was laughable. Most of the Pilots laughingly said that the only positive way was ramming the Bears (bombers) That Russia overflew Northern areas of Canada. Let' see what Cpac shows

wow are you uninformed don't they have newspapers or tv access in retirement homes?

British Tornado a fighter??? the Tornado is primarily a ground attack bomber...the primary british fighter is the Typhoon a vastly superior plane to our CF-18 Hornet and as far as the brits are concerned superior to the F35...and a ex-airforce pilot told you we're flying now is the Falcon? really canada doesn't have any F-16 Falcons and the Falcon has been in use for 32 years a wee bit short of 60 years don't you think....and the Hornets canada does fly first came into service in 1982 or 29 years ago....

actually know something of what you post before you try bull shit everyone...

[wyly]

Watch and learn about the politics of procurement. Specifically dealing with the new F35. A big issue with Canadians. Hopefully CPAC will set the record straight.

ya it's a big issue 63% of canadians don't think we need them...

[RNG]

ya it's a big issue 63% of canadians don't think we need them...

Which makes me quiver in fear every time I realize the can vote.

[wyly]

Which makes me quiver in fear every time I realize the can vote.

unlike conservative voters who don't what a Tornado is for or that we don't have Falcons in our air force and come up with a BS story about a air force pilot claims our Falcons(that we don't have ) are 50+ years old... :lol: :lol:

[Guest Derek L]

wow are you uninformed don't they have newspapers or tv access in retirement homes?

British Tornado a fighter??? the Tornado is primarily a ground attack bomber...the primary british fighter is the Typhoon a vastly superior plane to our CF-18 Hornet and as far as the brits are concerned superior to the F35...and a ex-airforce pilot told you we're flying now is the Falcon? really canada doesn't have any F-16 Falcons and the Falcon has been in use for 32 years a wee bit short of 60 years don't you think....and the Hornets canada does fly first came into service in 1982 or 29 years ago....

actually know something of what you post before you try bull shit everyone...

The United Kingdom is also purchasing the F-35 as a replacement for the Tornado, Jaguar and Harrier. The Typhoon, which was designed as a mutlirole fighter, still is not fully operational in the air to ground role. At a price of ~90 million Euro per copy, it's in the same price range as the JSF, but still the product of the 1980s.

Also, of the four nations that developed it (UK/Germany/Italy/Spain), only Germany doesn't plan to purchase the F-35.

[wyly]

The United Kingdom is also purchasing the F-35 as a replacement for the Tornado, Jaguar and Harrier. The Typhoon, which was designed as a mutlirole fighter, still is not fully operational in the air to ground role. At a price of ~90 million Euro per copy, it's in the same price range as the JSF, but still the product of the 1980s.

Also, of the four nations that developed it (UK/Germany/Italy/Spain), only Germany doesn't plan to purchase the F-35.

the F-22 raptor superior to the f-35 is still a product of the 80's as well and didn't come into service until 2005 the typhoon came into service in 2004...the f-35 is beset with a whole list of problems and no one will admit how much it will cost, if they even know, estimates now as high as 130 million per unit... Edited April 25, 2011 by wyly

[Guest Derek L]

the F-22 raptor superior to the f-35 is still a product of the 80's as well and didn't come into service until 2005 the typhoon came into service in 2004...the f-35 is beset with a whole list of problems and no one will admit how much it will cost, if they even know, estimates now as high as 130 million per unit...

Actually, the F-22 is only superior in the air-air role, it's air to ground role is lacking. As for being a product of the 80s, you're right, and production of it is ending later this year. The vast majority of the USAF's legacy fleet (F-15 & F-16) will be replaced with the F-35A (What we're buying).

WRT being "beset with problems", you're wrong. The version we're buying is already starting low-intial production. The F-35B, which will replace the USMC Harrier and Hornet fleets is the version suffering weight issues. The F-35C, which the USN & RN are buying is currently meeting all test goals.

As for cost, when you factor in economies of scale, 3000-5000 JSF orders will trump the 500-600 airframes orderd under the Eurofighter program. Also, unless further orders are placed (Maybe India & Brazil), the Eurofighter production lines will be likely be closing by the middle of this decade. The JSF will be produced into the 2030s.

And though it shouldn't mater with defence procurment, the Eurofighter has no Canadian content. The F-35A & C will use engine parts made by Pratt & Whitney Canada.

[Topaz]

Here's an idea, if the conservatives are soooooo sure that he F35 is the one and that the price will NOT go up, then they should sign a contract stating that if any increase in price, the whole party will resign there jobs on the spot!! OR they can have an open tender, which should be the way.

[Moonbox]

WRT being "beset with problems", you're wrong. The version we're buying is already starting low-intial production. The F-35B, which will replace the USMC Harrier and Hornet fleets is the version suffering weight issues. The F-35C, which the USN & RN are buying is currently meeting all test goals.

Oh boy. Where to start? The F-35 program isn't beset with problems? You might want to let US Defense Secretary Robert Gates know that. US officials (pentagon included) are estimating costs of between $115-150M per plane, which is getting close to double what Harper and his government are projecting. The program is struggling so badly that the USMC variant, the F-35B may be getting cancelled altogether.

http://ipolitics.ca/2011/03/30/pm-disputes-pentagon-price-tag-for-f-35s/

http://beauforttribune.com/archives/50736

[Guest Derek L]

Oh boy. Where to start? The F-35 program isn't beset with problems? You might want to let US Defense Secretary Robert Gates know that. US officials (pentagon included) are estimating costs of between $115-150M per plane, which is getting close to double what Harper and his government are projecting. The program is struggling so badly that the USMC variant, the F-35B may be getting cancelled altogether.

http://ipolitics.ca/2011/03/30/pm-disputes-pentagon-price-tag-for-f-35s/

http://beauforttribune.com/archives/50736

As I said in my above post, and your link confirms, the F-35B is having problems with weight issues. The F-35B version, is the VTOL version (Vertical take-off and landing), and uses a completly different engine (Rolls-Royce) then the other two versions. Though SecDef Gates has put it on probation for two years it won't be cancelled in the end, for the simple reason that if it was, The United States Marine Corps, Italian navy and Spanish navy would not have an aircraft to fly form their LHD/CVLs. There is no other option once the Harrier is retired. The B is too important to fail.

Reguardless, problems and cost overuns to the B version won't effect us, as I've said, we're buying the A version, and as I said, it's already in low-rate production.

http://www.dailytech.com/First+Production+Lockheed+F35A+Takes+Flight+in+Texas/article21015.htm

[Moonbox]

Reguardless, problems and cost overuns to the B version won't effect us, as I've said, we're buying the A version, and as I said, it's already in low-rate production.

Nope. Cost estimates are for the A variant. They're all going to be way over budget. To say that the F-35B is somehow going to be 50-100% more expensive simply because it's STVOL is ridiculous. If that was the case it'd be smarter just to design a completely new fighter from scratch.

[Guest Derek L]

Nope. Cost estimates are for the A variant. They're all going to be way over budget. To say that the F-35B is somehow going to be 50-100% more expensive simply because it's STVOL is ridiculous. If that was the case it'd be smarter just to design a completely new fighter from scratch.

Did I mention cost estimates in any of my previous posts?

The F-35B will be the most expensive version, because it's STVOL. There has never been a supersonic, STVOL (achieved through lift-fan), production aircraft. It's completly new technology, also due to it being the least produced version, economies of scale will dictate it being the most expensive.

As for designing a new plane from scratch, won't happen. There's no reason to beleive another, stand alone aircraft design, would be cheaper. Will the B version cost more than expected? Yes. Will the B version be cancelled? No, for the very reasons I've outlined above. The first production B versions will likely be delayed 1-2, which is not uncommon for modern aircraft. (Look at our Sea King replacement. Or the Eurofighter. Or the new Airbus wide-body)

Since you've brought up JSF costing, again, from using your link:

The F-35 program has seen massive cost overruns, which have alarmed lawmakers in the U.S. The Pentagon’s program is estimated to cost $386 billion, almost double what was initially proposed.

The Harper government has fought a pitched battle with the opposition parties and the parliamentary budget officer over its figures. When the purchase of 65 stealth fighters was first announced, the Conservatives said the price tag was $9 billion for the aircraft and up to $7 billion more for 20 years’ of maintenance.

Though that $386 billion number is the cost of the entire program and includes R&D costs for all three versions, and I question the source of the estimate, for the sake of argument, let's use that high estimate for the entire program from the link you provided.

Lockheed, the US DoD and other partner nations are expecting the number of aircraft produced over the life of the program to be somewhere between 3000-5000.

Using the low end of that estimate:

386 billion/3000 = ~$129 million per aircraft

Using the high end

386 billion/5000 = ~$77 million per aircraft

Closer to Harper's figure, and since thats an average that includes the more expensive B & C verisons, R & D costing, the cost of the development of the B version's Rolls Royce lift-fan and the now canceled second engine GE produced for the coventional versions, I still feel that a rather high estimate.

[wyly]

Here's an idea, if the conservatives are soooooo sure that he F35 is the one and that the price will NOT go up, then they should sign a contract stating that if any increase in price, the whole party will resign there jobs on the spot!! OR they can have an open tender, which should be the way.

i like it!

[Guest Derek L]

i like it!

I've asked a poster in another thread, and I'll ask you (and any others)

What is the Liberals/NDP's plan to replace the current CF-18?

[Tilter]

wow are you uninformed don't they have newspapers or tv access in retirement homes?

British Tornado a fighter??? the Tornado is primarily a ground attack bomber...the primary british fighter is the Typhoon a vastly superior plane to our CF-18 Hornet and as far as the brits are concerned superior to the F35...and a ex-airforce pilot told you we're flying now is the Falcon? really canada doesn't have any F-16 Falcons and the Falcon has been in use for 32 years a wee bit short of 60 years don't you think....and the Hornets canada does fly first came into service in 1982 or 29 years ago....

actually know something of what you post before you try bull shit everyone...

Actually the Tornado is a fighter bomber as will be the F35 even if it has the F handle. The only true bomber left is the B52. When an "fighter" can carry more bombs than a B50 or Lancaster could it deserves the Fighter Bomber name.

You'e right about the F18, & not the Falcon--I miss-named it, no ex airforce guy told me that it's my own mistake altho am mistaken in saying that there because I'm an old ex-airforce pilot & I told myself. Pre F18 by the way.

The delivery of the F35 won't happen for 10 to 15 years so add those on to the 30 served it's closer to 60 than 30

the primary british fighter is the Typhoon a vastly superior plane to our CF-18 Hornet and as far as the brits are concerned superior to the F35

..

Quote from the Eurofighter page“

What people don't realise about Typhoon is how good it is at high altitude. Between 40,000 and 55,000 feet, nothing can touch it except an F-22 - that's what makes it so strong in air defence”.

The F35 is going to be a far superior Fighter than the F22-- the capabilities are to be Higher faster more range & less radar visible. The Typhoon has more junk hanging off it than a Sopwith Camel. Ever wonder what would happen to an A/C if it's Canard was hit by a chunk of AA?

It isn't stealth, and by the look of the report of when to flew to India it seems the Typhoon had to stop 5 times.

If they are going to cross more than 2 postage stamp sized countries they are going to have to have tankers waiting all along the route.

What a crock. If you want to know anything about which plane is best --- ask anyone from any country and they will tell you --- their's are the best.

The F35 hasn't done ANY comparison to any other A/C & The numbers, (not a lot published yet) but what they haver released are awesome.

The Tornado is a piece of shit, read about it--- it's another widowmaker, engine is crap & cost the Brits about twice what it was supposed to.It also has a radar signature of the front & back barn doors.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Tilter

[Guest Derek L]

Actually the Tornado is a fighter bomber as will be the F35 even if it has the F handle. The only true bomber left is the B52. When an "fighter" can carry more bombs than a B50 or Lancaster could it deserves the Fighter Bomber name.

You'e right about the F18, & not the Falcon--I miss-named it, no ex airforce guy told me that it's my own mistake altho am mistaken in saying that there because I'm an old ex-airforce pilot & I told myself. Pre F18 by the way.

The delivery of the F35 won't happen for 10 to 15 years so add those on to the 30 served it's closer to 60 than 30

..

Quote from the Eurofighter page“

The F35 is going to be a far superior Fighter than the F22-- the capabilities are to be Higher faster more range & less radar visible. The Typhoon has more junk hanging off it than a Sopwith Camel. Ever wonder what would happen to an A/C if it's Canard was hit by a chunk of AA?

It isn't stealth, and by the look of the report of when to flew to India it seems the Typhoon had to stop 5 times.

If they are going to cross more than 2 postage stamp sized countries they are going to have to have tankers waiting all along the route.

What a crock. If you want to know anything about which plane is best --- ask anyone from any country and they will tell you --- their's are the best.

The F35 hasn't done ANY comparison to any other A/C & The numbers, (not a lot published yet) but what they haver released are awesome.

The Tornado is a piece of shit, read about it--- it's another widowmaker, engine is crap & cost the Brits about twice what it was supposed to.It also has a radar signature of the front & back barn doors.

WRT bombers, the USAF uses three types, B-52, B-1 Lancer and B-2 stealth bomber.....The Russians are still producing the BlackJack and still have Backfires in service....then there's the Bear, like the B-52s, they'll be around for years.

You're retired airforce? When did you retire and where did you serve?

Actually, the DoD, Boeing and Lockheed held the largest fighter competition in history between the X-35 and X-32....X-35 won.

[Mr.Canada]

I've asked a poster in another thread, and I'll ask you (and any others)

What is the Liberals/NDP's plan to replace the current CF-18?

No party has ever said they wouldn't. Actually all parties have acknowledged the need for replacing them. I think the other parties are trying to play a shell game.

[Guest Derek L]

No party has ever said they wouldn't. Actually all parties have acknowledged the need for replacing them. I think the other parties are trying to play a shell game.

I've heard the Liberals say they would have a competion. I have not heard what the NDP's plan is.

I'd ask the Liberals this: Have a competion with who? Other than the F-35, the only other western aircraft in production are:

F-18 Superhornet

F-15 Silent Eagle

F-16 (whatever the latest block version is)

Eurofighter

Gripen NG

Rafale

All inferior to the F-35.

[Mr.Canada]

I've heard the Liberals say they would have a competion. I have not heard what the NDP's plan is.

I'd ask the Liberals this: Have a competion with who? Other than the F-35, the only other western aircraft in production are:

F-18 Superhornet

F-15 Silent Eagle

F-16 (whatever the latest block version is)

Eurofighter

Ripen NG

Rafale

All inferior to the F-35.

Jack Layton said (paraphrasing) The CF18 comes to the end of its useful life in 2017 or 2018 but the real priority is our Navy. he then went on about building and designing our own ships etc etc...He said it in Vancouver I believe, early to middle in the campaign.

The EuroFighter is a pretty damned cool plane but not as good as the F35. Still cool though.

I don't disagree with you Derek.

[Scotty]

wow are you uninformed don't they have newspapers or tv access in retirement homes?

Why don't you try and not act like an asshole when you answer people?

British Tornado a fighter??? the Tornado is primarily a ground attack bomber...the primary british fighter is the Typhoon a vastly superior plane to our CF-18 Hornet and as far as the brits are concerned superior to the F35.

This is an aircraft which has been under development for over thirty years and has had masses of problems and cost overruns. According to Wiki the cost per plane is 90 million pounds ($142 million). I don't see that as a particular cost saving - and cost seems to be the big complaint about the F35. As to which is the better aircraft, I leave that to the experts we pay - in our air force - and they've selected the F35.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Scotty

[Moonbox]

Though that $386 billion number is the cost of the entire program and includes R&D costs for all three versions, and I question the source of the estimate, for the sake of argument, let's use that high estimate for the entire program from the link you provided.

You question the source of the estimate? The estimates are coming from the US Government Accountability Office and being echoed by nearly everyone in the business. A few key quotes from their statement:

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11450t.pdf

Affordability for the U.S. and partners is challenged by a near doubling in average unit prices since program start and higher estimated life-cycle costs.

Program Has Still Not Fully Demonstrated a Stable Design and Mature Manufacturing Processes as It Enters Its Fifth Year of Production

On page 16 it shows an average program cost of $156/unit and an actual procurement cost of $133M/plane. The F-35B is expected to cost approx $159M/plane.

Lockheed, the US DoD and other partner nations are expecting the number of aircraft produced over the life of the program to be somewhere between 3000-5000.

Using the low end of that estimate:

386 billion/3000 = ~$129 million per aircraft

Using the high end

386 billion/5000 = ~$77 million per aircraft

The US DoD is purchasing 2400 planes. It wouldn't be surprising given recent history for this number to go down. If the US is only ordering 2400, where would the other 2600 come from? There literally isn't a market for it anywhere. At this rate they're going to be hard-pressed to make it 3000 units and if we're going to use history as a guideline it would suggest that the price will go up and the orders will go down.

Closer to Harper's figure, and since thats an average that includes the more expensive B & C verisons, R & D costing, the cost of the development of the B version's Rolls Royce lift-fan and the now canceled second engine GE produced for the coventional versions, I still feel that a rather high estimate.

Harper's figures are based on literally nothing. Even if you want to present the average cost of all 3 planes in the most favourable light possible, none of the math would support a $77M/unit price. Over 70% of the fighters the US will be buying will be the F-35A variant. The F-35C naval variant will make up the bulk of the rest of the planes the US will be purchasing. The F-35B has a small niche of service with the marines and some third rate powers in Europe. It's only expected to cost around 20% more than the F-35A and is expected to make up for probably less than 10% of the orders. It has a negligible impact on the averages.

The only estimate pegging the plane at $77M/plane is coming from Harper and he's only saying that for optics. I agree with the purchase of the plane in principle but don't BS us on the numbers.

[wyly]

Jack Layton said (paraphrasing) The CF18 comes to the end of its useful life in 2017 or 2018 but the real priority is our Navy. he then went on about building and designing our own ships etc etc...He said it in Vancouver I believe, early to middle in the campaign.

The EuroFighter is a pretty damned cool plane but not as good as the F35. Still cool though.

I don't disagree with you Derek.

in computer comabt simulations the Typhoons eliminated 85% 0f F35's, they're not that good ...and we have no need of them, a super hornet is more than enough for any potential enemy we may do battle with, any country with better technology we won't be doing battle with because they'll brush aside our defenses regardless of F35's...

[Moonbox]

in computer comabt simulations the Typhoons eliminated 85% 0f F35's, they're not that good ...and we have no need of them, a super hornet is more than enough for any potential enemy we may do battle with, any country with better technology we won't be doing battle with because they'll brush aside our defenses regardless of F35's...

We're better off not upgrading at all than buying the Super Hornet. If we're only going to upgrade every 30-40 years it had better not be a marginal upgrade that will have been in service 20 years already.