Canadian politicians - the culture killer

bjre · December 7, 2009

Indeed, if after a stringent clinical testing, the herb known as ephedra was found tpo promote weight loss.....oh never mind...

Did you majoring TCM in college? How did you know ephedra is for weight loss? In your logic, maybe cocaine will be better for that purpose.

M.Dancer · December 7, 2009

Did you majoring TCM in college? How did you know ephedra is for weight loss? In your logic, maybe cocaine will be better for that purpose.

How did I know? Cause Ephedra was used for weight loss, colds.....until it killed .

Ephedra, from the plant Ephedra sinica,[1] has been used as a herbal remedy in traditional Chinese medicine for 5,000 years for the treatment of asthma and hay fever, as well as for the common cold.[2] Known in Chinese as ma huang (simplified Chinese: 麻黄; traditional Chinese: 麻黃; pinyin: má huáng), ephedra is a stimulant which constricts blood vessels and increases blood pressure and heart rate.

Ephedra banned
In response to renewed calls for the regulation of ephedra, the FDA commissioned a large meta-analysis of ephedra's safety and efficacy by the RAND Corporation. This study found that while ephedra promoted modest short-term weight loss, there was no evidence that it was effective for long-term weight loss or performance enhancement. The use of ephedra in this study was associated with significant gastrointestinal, psychiatric, and autonomic side effects.[39] Almost simultaneously, a study in Annals of Internal Medicine found that ephedra was 100 to 700 times more likely to cause a significant adverse reaction than other commonly used supplements such as kava or Ginkgo biloba.[6]

On December 30, 2003, the FDA issued a press release recommending that consumers stop buying and using ephedra, and indicating its intention to ban the sale of ephedra-containing supplements.[40] Subsequently, on 12 April 2004, the FDA issued a final rule banning the sale of ephedra-containing dietary supplements. Tommy Thompson, the Secretary of Health and Human Services, stated that "...These products pose unacceptable health risks, and any consumers who are still using them should stop immediately."[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedra#Ephedra_banned

bjre · December 7, 2009

View Postbjre, on 07 December 2009 - 01:00 PM, said:

Under Health Canada's regulation, tens of thousands of life's lost each year. (post #25)

Source?

post #25: (Medical errors killing up to 24,000 Canadians a year, http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2004/06/09/med_errors040609.html)

View Postbjre, on 07 December 2009 - 01:00 PM, said:

Regulated hospitals and pharmaceuticals is dangerous. (post #25, #26, #39)

Source? Or, at the very least, an argument to support your assertion?

post #25 as above,

post #26:

For the western medicine, let's look at this phenomenon:

http://198.83.120.7/SocialSciences/ppecorino/MEDICAL_ETHICS_TEXT/Chapter_3_Moral_Climate_of_Health_Care/Reading-Death-Rate-Doctor-Strike.htm

or google "Death Rate Drops During Doctor Strike "

DOCTORS ON STRIKE

Whenever medical doctors go on strike, a most interesting phenomenon occurs - death rates go down! In 1976 in Bogota, Columbia medical doctors went on strike for 52 days, with only emergency care available. The death rate dropped by 35%. In 1976 in Los Angeles County a similar doctors' strike resulted in an 18% drop in mortality. As soon as the strike was over, the death rate went back to normal. A 50% decrease in mortality occurred in Israel in 1973 when there was a

one month doctor's strike!

post #39: The vast majority of western chemical medicine has side effect. side effect examples from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_effect#Examples_of_adverse_effects_associated_with_specific_medications

bjre · December 7, 2009

How did I know? Cause Ephedra was used for weight loss, colds.....until it killed .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedra#Ephedra_banned

You can even contribute some pieces by yourself into wiki if you love to.

Did you use a western chemical drug by reading something from wiki?

Edited December 7, 2009 by bjre

bjre · December 7, 2009

View Postbjre, on 07 December 2009 - 01:00 PM, said:

That is what pharmaceutical industry want, they can increase price 100 times or 10000 times higher than its original natural form and ask you to pay through tax. To do this, they need to dominate market with the help of laws or "regulations".

Source?

But why would the government and the pharmaceutical industry conspire to be so evil? It's all too clear to Schapira:

"It's a desperate effort to destroy this industry that's threatening the profits and viability of conventional medicine. Natural medicine works so well — and is becoming so widely used — that both the Canadian and American governments have decided to 'nuke' the industries by passing new laws that effectively criminalize anyone selling such products. They simply cannot tolerate allowing consumers to have continued access to natural products. To do so will ultimately spell the destruction of Big Pharma and the outdated, corrupt and criminally-operated pharmaceutical industry that these criminally-operated governments are trying to protect."

-- From

http://www.ottawaskeptics.org/topics/alternative-medicine/191?task=view

cybercoma · December 7, 2009

Do I even need to tell you that those sources are ridiculous? An article about doctors going on strike in Bogota, Colombia back in the 70s as an indictment of the entire system of western medicine? Is this guy for real? Furthermore, the article about preventable deaths is nothing more than a news report. How about finding the actual report? 24000 deaths is the high end, the low end of the figure is drastically lower: 9000. What kind of report has a 300% swing? Also, how many Canadians are treated in a year versus that 9000-24000 that allegedly are killed due to errors? What kind of errors are they? In fact, are some of those errors because the patients fail to mention that they're on holistic medications such as St. John's Wort? I'm willing to bet money on it that's the case. So, is the problem with those incidents Western medicine or holistic mumbo jumbo?

Don't get me wrong; I'm open to the idea that there are alternative holistic remedies that are practical and work. I just believe the system ought to be regulated, so only the safe and effective treatments go to market.

Edited December 7, 2009 by cybercoma

cybercoma · December 7, 2009

But why would the government and the pharmaceutical industry conspire to be so evil? It's all too clear to Schapira:

"It's a desperate effort to destroy this industry that's threatening the profits and viability of conventional medicine. Natural medicine works so well — and is becoming so widely used — that both the Canadian and American governments have decided to 'nuke' the industries by passing new laws that effectively criminalize anyone selling such products. They simply cannot tolerate allowing consumers to have continued access to natural products. To do so will ultimately spell the destruction of Big Pharma and the outdated, corrupt and criminally-operated pharmaceutical industry that these criminally-operated governments are trying to protect."

-- From
http://www.ottawaskeptics.org/topics/alternative-medicine/191?task=view

That link doesn't defend your case. It's a sarcastic rant about the bills going after alternative remedies:

Sadly for our avid conspiracty theorists, there is nothing dark or sinister about C-6. It is just a re-introduction of last session's Bill C-52, also named the Canada Consumer Product Safety Act. The purpose of Bill C-6 and its predecessor is to protect the health and safety of Canadians by prohibiting "the manufacture, importation, advertisement or sale of consumer products that pose an unreasonable danger to human health or safety."

Perhaps you should firstly, pay closer attention to your sources, and secondly, look at all the information that contradicts your beliefs, as well as the information that supports it before coming to any conclusions.

xul · December 7, 2009

Just know from TV Ontario is try to make new legislation for Chinese Traditional Medicine.

I think they are doing a great job if what you said is true.

Again, they can not allow anyone else provide cheaper health solution that prevent them from being the only one who can take money for health.

The so-called "Chinese traditional medicine" is not a cheaper health solution for patients, though it maybe a cheaper solution for those irresponsible governments and regimes which legalize it, because sometimes it costs people's life.

One of my classmate's mother believed in Chinese traditional medicine. Many years ago she was find slight anaemia in a regular blood test. Instead of advising a "western medicine" doctor, she went for a Chinese traditional medicine "doctor" and spent a lot of money for buying useless herbal medicine. A year later she had to go to a "western medicine doctor" for feeling pain in her chest. She was found cancer and died several months later.

In China, Chinese was once called "the sick man of East Asia" and most Chinese died before their 40s when this "traditional medicine" dominated China and before western medicine was introduced into China. Ironically, this "Chinese traditional medicine" which was incompetent curing tuberculosis and pneumonia in the past now claims it is capable to treat cancer, AIDS....and of course influenza H1N1.

I think it is a shame for China to legalize such cheat and to spend billions of taxpayer's money on paying such useless treatments.

Not all traditions are good and cultural. Spitting on floor was once a tradition in China, but it is neither good nor cultural and should not be preserved at all.

Edited December 7, 2009 by xul

Michael Hardner · December 7, 2009

I think they are doing a great job if what you said is true.

In China, Chinese was once called "the sick man of East Asia" and most Chinese died before their 40s when this "traditional medicine" dominated China and before western medicine was introduced into China. Ironically, this "Chinese traditional medicine" which was incompetent curing tuberculosis and pneumonia in the past now claims it is capable to treat cancer, AIDS....and of course influenza H1N1.

Clearly, you have a good amount of knowledge on the issue. Hopefully, bjre may listen to you.

cybercoma · December 7, 2009

Clearly, you have a good amount of knowledge on the issue. Hopefully, bjre may listen to you.

I highly doubt it. If bjre was persuaded by reason, do you think he/she would support holistic therapies? Edited December 7, 2009 by cybercoma

bjre · December 7, 2009

The so-called "Chinese traditional medicine" is not a cheaper health solution for patients, though it maybe a cheaper solution for those irresponsible governments and regimes which legalize it, because sometimes it costs people's life.

One of my classmate's mother believed in Chinese traditional medicine. Many years ago she was find slight anaemia in a regular blood test. Instead of advising a "western medicine" doctor, she went for a Chinese traditional medicine "doctor" and spent a lot of money for buying useless herbal medicine. A year later she had to go to a "western medicine doctor" for feeling pain in her chest. She was found cancer and died several months later.

It has no point for you to blame a medicine if you did not use it correct.

In China, Chinese was once called "the sick man of East Asia" and most Chinese died before their 40s when this "traditional medicine" dominated China and before western medicine was introduced into China. Ironically, this "Chinese traditional medicine" which was incompetent curing tuberculosis and pneumonia in the past now claims it is capable to treat cancer, AIDS....and of course influenza H1N1.

The time when Chinese called "the sick man of East Asia" and died before their 40s is the time before 1949, at that time the Nationalist make TCM illegal, and western powers dominating China. After 1949, when the western nations led by the US block China from trading, the using TCM make great progress that lot of thing about TCM been taught in colleges, Chinese become winning Olympic metals. In the year 2001, 38 percent of people in China go to see doctors with TCM medications. In 2000, the life expectancy in China is 71.40 according to CIA world fact book.

I think it is a shame for China to legalize such cheat and to spend billions of taxpayer's money on paying such useless treatments.

Not all traditions are good and cultural. Spitting on floor was once a tradition in China, but it is neither good nor cultural and should not be preserved at all.

I think it is a shame to totally deny the advantage of TCM when you don't have an understanding of it.

Edited December 7, 2009 by bjre

December 7, 2009

post #25: (Medical errors killing up to 24,000 Canadians a year, http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2004/06/09/med_errors040609.html)

And how many people would die without it? Well first off nearly everyone who died from medical errors minus those doing elective sugery and many times more. What is the traditional chinese alternitive to a heart transplant? lung cancer? bypass surgery? these are all things that would kill thousands without western medicine, and there are many more than that.

post #25 as above,

see above.

post #26:
For the western medicine, let's look at this phenomenon:

http://198.83.120.7/SocialSciences/ppecorino/MEDICAL_ETHICS_TEXT/Chapter_3_Moral_Climate_of_Health_Care/Reading-Death-Rate-Doctor-Strike.htm

or google "Death Rate Drops During Doctor Strike "

DOCTORS ON STRIKE

Whenever medical doctors go on strike, a most interesting phenomenon occurs - death rates go down! In 1976 in Bogota, Columbia medical doctors went on strike for 52 days, with only emergency care available. The death rate dropped by 35%. In 1976 in Los Angeles County a similar doctors' strike resulted in an 18% drop in mortality. As soon as the strike was over, the death rate went back to normal. A 50% decrease in mortality occurred in Israel in 1973 when there was a

one month doctor's strike!

I've already been through this correlation does not imply causation. Read a damn science book.

post #39: The vast majority of western chemical medicine has side effect. side effect examples from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_effect#Examples_of_adverse_effects_associated_with_specific_medications

Everything has side effects claim something doesn't and your a fool.

That is what pharmaceutical industry want, they can increase price 100 times or 10000 times higher than its original natural form and ask you to pay through tax. To do this, they need to dominate market with the help of laws or "regulations".

Bullshit the government would not allow prices to get that high. In fact they actively negotiate prices lower.

Under Health Canada's regulation, tens of thousands of life's lost each year. (post #25)

Bullshit regulation has lead to a dramatic decrease in life lost. the loss is inevitable because no process perfect but medicine tends to be a lot closer. And why are you ignoring that 100+ years ago before western medicine was invented people were lucky to live past 6 and even if they passed that hurdle lucky to live past 30-40.

Regulated hospitals and pharmaceuticals is dangerous. (post #25, #26, #39)

Again bullshit without hospitals and pharmaceuticals everywere would have deathrates like 3 world countries.

The vast majority of frequently used chinese medicine works very well in curing lots of diseases.

Lots of them have effects to diseases that no western counterpart can do.

You have not cited a single source for that. Either shut up or give me a damn study

The vast majority of western chemical medicine has side effect:

Everything has side effects eat to many burgers and the side effect is you get fat, injest to much mecury and you die. Take anything it will have a side effect.

Even not, at least it has no side effect.

Everything has side effects, period.

Edited December 7, 2009 by TrueMetis

bjre · December 8, 2009

Bullshit

Easy, be calm, that will good to your health according to TCM.

And how many people would die without it? Well first off nearly everyone who died from medical errors minus those doing elective sugery and many times more. What is the traditional chinese alternitive to a heart transplant? lung cancer? bypass surgery? these are all things that would kill thousands without western medicine, and there are many more than that.

see above.

I've already been through this correlation does not imply causation. Read a damn science book.

Everything has side effects claim something doesn't and your a fool.

Bullshit the government would not allow prices to get that high. In fact they actively negotiate prices lower.

Bullshit regulation has lead to a dramatic decrease in life lost. the loss is inevitable because no process perfect but medicine tends to be a lot closer. And why are you ignoring that 100+ years ago before western medicine was invented people were lucky to live past 6 and even if they passed that hurdle lucky to live past 30-40.

Again bullshit without hospitals and pharmaceuticals everywere would have deathrates like 3 world countries.

You missed the point. What I said is to tell that

1. Chemical medicine is dangerous.

2. Regulations and laws did not make western chemical medicine not-dangerous.

That is a response to those who said TCM is dangerous.

You have not cited a single source for that. Either shut up or give me a damn study

Give you an example:

Flu, no western medicine are good enough, some Antiviral medication can be used, but influenza can resist it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza#Treatment

With TCM, there is universal medication for flu:

The municipal health department in Beijing has claimed that some A (H1N1) flu patients in the city have been cured with a 5,000-year-old traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) treatment.

As of Thursday, eight out of 17 flu patients handpicked for the TCM-only treatment have fully recovered from the pandemic, said a notice issued by the Beijing Health Bureau today.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2009-07/02/content_8349789.htm

Edited December 8, 2009 by bjre

December 8, 2009

Easy, be calm, that will good to your health according to TCM.

Real medicine says that to, the difference is real medicine can give a reason why.

You missed the point. What I said is to tell that
1. Chemical medicine is dangerous.

2. Regulations and laws did not make western chemical medicine not-dangerous.

That is a response to those who said TCM is dangerous.

If regulated medicine that goes through trials to limit how dangerous it is is dangerous. Than not regulated untested TCM will kill you. Now seeing as I did not deny that real medicine is dangerous how about you actually respond to what I wrote?

Give you an example:
Flu, no western medicine are good enough, some Antiviral medication can be used, but influenza can resist it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza#Treatment

If you get the shot the chances of getting H1N1 is next to nothing and the chances of dying is even less. Same for seasonal flu and pretty much every other influenza out there. Now virus's constantly evolve that much is obvious which is why medicine evolves to treat it, TCM doesn't change at all so how can it be expected to combat deseases that didn't exsist when it was created?

With TCM, there is universal medication for flu:

The municipal health department in Beijing has claimed that some A (H1N1) flu patients in the city have been cured with a 5,000-year-old traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) treatment.

As of Thursday, eight out of 17 flu patients handpicked for the TCM-only treatment have fully recovered from the pandemic, said a notice issued by the Beijing Health Bureau today.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2009-07/02/content_8349789.htm

8 people out of 17? :lol: I'd expect more than that many to get better just by drinking fluids. So where is the actual study that shows they got better because of the TCM?

Edited December 8, 2009 by TrueMetis

cybercoma · December 8, 2009

I see this character conveniently breezed by the post where I pointed out that his sources actually contradict his assertions. I'm guessing troll? This will be my last reply to this thread; I can assure you.

bjre · December 9, 2009

I see this character conveniently breezed by the post where I pointed out that his sources actually contradict his assertions. I'm guessing troll? This will be my last reply to this thread; I can assure you.

Things been "conveniently breezed" is a normal character.

For example:

A Youtube video

that I have posted in #55 was breezed without response by yourself as well.

That is partly due to other post been given more attentions. And everyone has his work need to do unless he need not to work or his job is posting, they just post when they have time to research and have idea like to share.

That link doesn't defend your case. It's a sarcastic rant about the bills going after alternative remedies:

Sadly for our avid conspiracty theorists, there is nothing dark or sinister about C-6. It is just a re-introduction of last session's Bill C-52, also named the Canada Consumer Product Safety Act. The purpose of Bill C-6 and its predecessor is to protect the health and safety of Canadians by prohibiting "the manufacture, importation, advertisement or sale of consumer products that pose an unreasonable danger to human health or safety."

Perhaps you should firstly, pay closer attention to your sources, and secondly, look at all the information that contradicts your beliefs, as well as the information that supports it before coming to any conclusions.

When someone want to push a new legislation, of cause they need to find some words to show to public, how can you expect they said it direct that they want take more money?

There are linkes inside the page I gave that you can find the original places, at which lots of reasons has been stated for anti C-51 and others. There is another thread on that topic: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=15238&view=findpost&p=476202&hl=&fromsearch=1

Edited December 9, 2009 by bjre

bjre · December 9, 2009

Do I even need to tell you that those sources are ridiculous?

proof?

An article about doctors going on strike in Bogota, Colombia back in the 70s as an indictment of the entire system of western medicine? Is this guy for real?

It is not a single incident, it also happened in USA and Israel that you have ignored. There are no further report does not mean it has been changed, it only means no one did the further research after that.

Furthermore, the article about preventable deaths is nothing more than a news report. How about finding the actual report? 24000 deaths is the high end, the low end of the figure is drastically lower: 9000. What kind of report has a 300% swing? Also, how many Canadians are treated in a year versus that 9000-24000 that allegedly are killed due to errors? What kind of errors are they? In fact, are some of those errors because the patients fail to mention that they're on holistic medications such as St. John's Wort? I'm willing to bet money on it that's the case. So, is the problem with those incidents Western medicine or holistic mumbo jumbo?

The sentence "preventable medical errors contribute to between 9,000 and 24,000" itself is an example shows modern science are not strong enough to find the reason what is the problem. It fails to prove if the western treatment has cause more death or not. So to attack TCM has not proved by modern science is meaningless, because western treatment has the exactly the same characters.

Don't get me wrong; I'm open to the idea that there are alternative holistic remedies that are practical and work. I just believe the system ought to be regulated, so only the safe and effective treatments go to market.

That is good idea but it is not the reality for both TCM and western medicine. It is not true even for food, for building, for cars. My car is made by Chrysler, they called back some parts when I changed oils.

bjre · December 9, 2009

Sometimes I think the reason why the hospital system provide bad service is for keeping asking money from from government.

This month, another Chinese immigrant dead in Scarborough Grace Hospital.

http://bbs.creaders.net/tea/bbsviewer.php?trd_id=429441&language=big5 (In Chinese) The patient went to the hospital in the morning, they wait from 11:00am to 11:00pm for a blood test report, they did not get the report and want to go home. They ask the doctor to call them if there is problem, the doctor don't know how to answer, nurse said they never do such things. the next night patient went hospital again by 911 call. And it was too late, she died, left 2 small kids.

If the blood report can as fast as China, the patient can still alive. (I had go to hospital in China many times myself or help others, I don't remember any time that it cost more than 1 hours)

This is the 3rd controversial death in the hospital recently that only has Chinese report without English report. Who knows how many such things happened everyday in hospitals.

Edited December 9, 2009 by bjre

bjre · December 9, 2009

Mistake post when editing the previous one.

Edited December 9, 2009 by bjre

Michael Hardner · December 9, 2009

Sometimes I think the reason why the hospital system provide bad service is for keeping asking money from from government.

...

This is the 3rd controversial death in the hospital recently that only has Chinese report without English report. Who knows how many such things happened everyday in hospitals.

You're dead right about this, bjre. The Canadian people are irresponsible when it comes to talking about, and monitoring the level of their healthcare services.

bjre · December 9, 2009

You're dead right about this, bjre. The Canadian people are irresponsible when it comes to talking about, and monitoring the level of their healthcare services.

What people can do is limited.

The hospital system can use privacy law to prevent husband from obtain the investigation report of the death of wife. Even write to MP only be replied that the complain has been given to the hospital system itself for checking.

In my opinion, only when a new hospital system created that is independent from Health Canada, that can compete with the existing one, can the service be improved.

Michael Hardner · December 9, 2009

What people can do is limited.

The hospital system can use privacy law to prevent husband from obtain the investigation report of the death of wife. Even write to MP only be replied that the complain has been given to the hospital system itself for checking.

In my opinion, only when a new hospital system created that is independent from Health Canada, that can compete with the existing one, can the service be improved.

Even normal operational information though, such as the size of waiting lists, isn't available - and isn't demanded by the public. We're too complacent.

BrassTax · December 9, 2009

This is all quite true. Long live minority governments - better yet lets try a coalition on for size.

Hear Hear!!

Jerry J. Fortin · December 9, 2009

As much of a problem as it is, our health care system is one of the best in the world, but it could be better.

cybercoma · December 9, 2009

I know I said I wouldn't reply, but Michael Hardner finally hit on something worth talking about. The problem with "our" healthcare system is that it's not really ours at all. Each province has their own system and public insurance. Funny that all the provinces are facing the same problems: doctor shortages, waiting lists, misdiagnoses, etc.