Jewish group wants Outremont Liberal pulled from byelection

[M.Dancer]

Bump

Nothing new to add? Reduced to the bump? Heh heh.

I thought I would give you one last opportunity before I write you off as a liar.

[Rue]

["Not surprisingly, the pro-Israel red herrings are filling the net. "

Try to stay with the program.

Well now Higgly is a tad paranoid. He feels those sinister Zionists dominate this forum and attack him. Hah. Higgly you want to come on this forum and make stupid racist inferences, take the heat.Oh but I know anyone who disagrees with you is an evil Zionist. They can't simply disagree with you because you might be in their opinion a collosal putz.

Edited July 31, 2007 by Rue

[Bonam]

Yeah right. Hitler attacked Russia because of the Jews. Get a grip.

Point out where I said that. I never did. Try reading the post again again, more slowly this time.

I said that one of the reasons Hitler hated Jews was because he associated them with communists. I did not say that Hitler attacked Russia because it contained Jews.

Hitler attacked Russia for the same reason Napolean did. Megalomania.

That and he wanted the oil in the Caucas regions and other resources, but yeah.

Edited July 31, 2007 by Bonam

[Bonam]

Well now Higgly is a tad paranoid. He feels those sinister Zionists dominate this forum and attack him.

Shhh, be careful Rue, before he "isolates and counters" you.

[Rue]

Yeah right. Hitler attacked Russia because of the Jews. Get a grip. Hitler attacked Russia for the same reason Napolean did. Megalomania.

Well now Higgly said something that could actually be accurate! Oh Lord of Abraham, thank you for penetrating his skull and imparting some knowledge! You work miracles! Next I insist you circumsize him and force him to eat a bagel without mayonaisse.

[Rue]

Bump

Nothing new to add? Reduced to the bump? Heh heh.

I thought I would give you one last opportunity before I write you off as a liar.

Yah but you are a Red Herring. (you can be a blue one if you want, I am not fixed on the colour)

[guyser]

Will you allow for a lil' Lox?

[Higgly]

Well now Higgly is a tad paranoid. He feels those sinister Zionists dominate this forum and attack him. Hah. Higgly you want to come on this forum and make stupid racist inferences, take the heat.Oh but I know anyone who disagrees with you is an evil Zionist. They can't simply disagree with you because you might be in their opinion a collosal putz.

What is a putz? Yet another poster who thinks we should all learn Yiddish? But thanks for talking to me Rue.

[Higgly]

Yeah right. Hitler attacked Russia because of the Jews. Get a grip. Hitler attacked Russia for the same reason Napolean did. Megalomania.

Well now Higgly said something that could actually be accurate! Oh Lord of Abraham, thank you for penetrating his skull and imparting some knowledge! You work miracles! Next I insist you circumsize him and force him to eat a bagel without mayonaisse.

Already circumsized Rue. Would you like to come and inspect up close? Bagels with mayonnaise? How French! LOL.

[Higgly]

Will you allow for a lil' Lox?

One on every door thanks. Good locks make good neighbours.

[Higgly]

Hitler attacked Russia for the same reason Napolean did. Megalomania.

That and he wanted the oil in the Caucas regions and other resources, but yeah.

So it really wasn't all about the Jews. Thanks for your input.

[Higgly]

Higgly out. Time for other enthusiasms. It's been fun.

[Bonam]

So it really wasn't all about the Jews. Thanks for your input.

Good job misinterpreting what I first wrote, arguing against something that was never stated, and when your failure to read is pointed out, trying to claim victory.

Higgly out. Time for other enthusiasms. It's been fun.

Feeling outnumbered by the evil Zionists? Lol. Soon as you can't spam your anti-semitic garbage unopposed you run away.

[Higgly]

Feeling outnumbered by the evil Zionists? Lol. Soon as you can't spam your anti-semitic garbage unopposed you run away.

Yeah right. There are a lot of Canadians out there in the field. People who have seen first hand what is going on in the Middle East. These people are retiring soon. When they no longer are constrained by their circumstances, your repression tactics will stop working.

We'll see what's what then.

[M.Dancer]

Bump

Nothing new to add? Reduced to the bump? Heh heh.

I thought I would give you one last opportunity before I write you off as a liar.

Yah but you are a Red Herring. (you can be a blue one if you want, I am not fixed on the colour)

I wanna be a schmaltz herring served on crisp bread....

[Higgly]

What does schmaltz mean?

[JB Globe]

Oh neo-con Jews, will you ever stop using the political tactics of America's Neoconservatives?

The problem here isn't that the candidate is anti-Israel. If that were the case, than a good 1/3 or more of Israel's population would be anti-Israel for sharing her views. The problem is that she isn't PRO-ISRAEL.

In the same way as anyone who criticized the Iraq War in 2003 was "anti-American" in the eyes of neocons anyone who disagrees with a good chunk of Israel's foreign policy becomes "Anti-Israeli" in the eyes of Jewish neocons and conservatives.

The problem is, that since the mainstream Canadian media is out of touch with the Jewish community, as they are with many religious and ethnic communities - they mistakenly believe that organizations like B'nai Brith represent most Jews when it comes to issues like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, when it doesn't.

This causes non-Jews to think that all Jews are somehow blind supporters of all Israel does, which we're not.

[M.Dancer]

Oh neo-con Jews, will you ever stop using the political tactics of America's Neoconservatives?

There is no evidence that anyone involved is a neo conservative and given that most montreal jews have voted in the past for Liberals, there is evidence to the contrary.

And if the voters of outremont reject this candidate, it won't make them neo conservative anymore than if a bloc win would make them separatist.

[JB Globe]

There is no evidence that anyone involved is a neo conservative and given that most montreal jews have voted in the past for Liberals, there is evidence to the contrary.

There is also no evidence that the candidate is "anti-Israeli" - in fact her views mirror that of many Israeli Jews. Like I said earlier, the problem isn't that she's "anti-Israeli" it's that she's not "pro-Israeli" and that's a must if you want the support of conservative Jews.

B'nai Brith is in fact known withing the Jewish community as being the CONSERVATIVE Jewish service organization, as opposed to the more moderate Canadian Jewish Congress. If you ever bother to read their paper - the Jewish Tribune, you can see why. These are the neocons I was referring to.

The thing is, B'nai Brith doesn't speak for the Jews in this candidate's potential riding - most of whom aren't conservative. What they're trying to do is prey on the ignorance of mainstream Canadian politicians of religious/ethnic minority groups. They're acting as though they're speaking on behalf of all Jews, including those in the riding. Since some politicians really don't know any better, they're hoping to intimidate them into withdrawing the candidate - even if Jews in the riding might not care, or even agree with her.

The same thing happens with Sikh conservative groups and Liberal politicians - since the politicians don't know crap about the Sikh community, they don't realize that those conservative groups they pander to only represent a fraction of the whole community.

[jdobbin]

There is also no evidence that the candidate is "anti-Israeli" - in fact her views mirror that of many Israeli Jews. Like I said earlier, the problem isn't that she's "anti-Israeli" it's that she's not "pro-Israeli" and that's a must if you want the support of conservative Jews.

B'nai Brith is in fact known withing the Jewish community as being the CONSERVATIVE Jewish service organization, as opposed to the more moderate Canadian Jewish Congress. If you ever bother to read their paper - the Jewish Tribune, you can see why. These are the neocons I was referring to.

Jocelyn Coulon is male. At the time the BB was asking for Coulon to be removed, another Jewish group said that BB didn't speak for all Jews in Quebec. It is early in the campaign. I don't know that we'll really see what is happening there till after Labour Day.

[Rue]

Seems to me that voters who care about a pro-Israeli stance in Canadian foreign policy would vote for the Conservatives regardless, as Harper has expressed strong support for Israel where the Liberals have offered only critiscism.

Oh you would have to go and get logical on everyone. Actually Harper's position right now if you are not an Israeli basher, is a lot more clear then Dion's that is for sure. Its also interesting that many Jewish liberals became quite aware of a sentiment spread at the LIberal convention that people should nopt vote for Bob Rae since his wife was Jewish and that makes him pro-Israeli, at least so the simplistic anti-semitic slur went.

I think Liberal foreign policy is something giving concern to many Jewish Quebecers who once could be counted on as loyal Liberal supporters due to their admiration of either Lester Pearson or of course Pierre Trudeau.

Now its a crap shoot. Jewish Quebecers know what Harper has stood for and they see him managing quite well with Charest. Me thinks many may vote for Harper not just because of the assumption he is pro-Israeli (he is in fact also a supporter of Mr. Abbas) but because of his good relations with Charest and Dion is seen as someone who may stir up seperatist sentment.

Dion's unpopularity in Quebec is not limited to just Jews that is for sure...but you are right it makes an interesting sub plot line say in Outremont where yes 10% of a population might be expected not to appreciate someone who supports Hamas-and by the way not just because he is anti-Israeli, but because he is sympathetic to a group that does not distinguish its hatred of Jews from Israelis.

[Rue]

"There is also no evidence that the candidate is "anti-Israeli" - in fact her views mirror that of many Israeli Jews. "

Get serious just read what he writes and no he does not share the biews of many Israeli Jews.

"....the problem isn't that she's "anti-Israeli" it's that she's not "pro-Israeli"..."

Uh yah. Tje problem isn't that he's circumsized, its that he doesn't have any foreskin. Love the logic.

" and that's a must if you want the support of conservative Jews."

This is one generalization I would have to agree with knowing this from personal experience growing up as a Jew in Montreal. But I would suggest to you many of us who supported Israel and who were quebec jews were reform Jews who are not conservative-reformist and reconstuctionist and humanist/atheist Jews and yes yegards even some socialist and commie Jews also support the right of Israel to exist. Whether you meant the word conservative as in Conservative Jewisg sect or conservative politics, your generalization needs to be clarified to include liberal Jews as well. But I get your point.

"B'nai Brith is in fact known withing the Jewish community as being the CONSERVATIVE Jewish service organization, as opposed to the more moderate Canadian Jewish Congress. "

Again speaking from my Jewish perspective I think your generalization is a fair one.

"If you ever bother to read their paper - the Jewish Tribune, you can see why. These are the neocons I was referring to."

Now you miss me. I am trying to look at this paper from a non Jew's eyes. Sorry I don't see it always being neo con. It is a little more complex then that.

"The thing is, B'nai Brith doesn't speak for the Jews in this candidate's potential riding"

B'Nai B'Rith is apolitical yes.

"What they're trying to do is prey on the ignorance of mainstream Canadian politicians of religious/ethnic minority groups. They're acting as though they're speaking on behalf of all Jews, including those in the riding."

Now your generalizations are going out of control and becoming too simplistic and just not accurate at all.

"Since some politicians really don't know any better, they're hoping to intimidate them into withdrawing the candidate - even if Jews in the riding might not care, or even agree with her."

I agree with the first part of your comment but not the second.

"The same thing happens with Sikh conservative groups and Liberal politicians - since the politicians don't know crap about the Sikh community, they don't realize that those conservative groups they pander to only represent a fraction of the whole community."

I appreciate the point you are trying to make and in your own way you are trying to say don't make assumptions that all Jews think the same way which I appreciate.

On the other hand I think its realistic to understand, and I say this as a Jew, the vast majority of Jews are not anti-Palestinian but we are pro-Israel in the sense that we believe Jews have the right to self-determination in their own country. Some of us believe that for religious reasons, others for cultural or political reasons.

Its only a minority of Jews who have a problem with Israel existing.

I think you are trying to say its possible there are Jews that don't find criticizing Israel in itself a reason not to vote for someone, and on that point I appreciate you saying that. That is a wonderful thing for a non Jew in my opinion to be able to understand in us. No we are not all slaves to Israel. We can support it but still criticize it. What we Jews do not appreciate are people who do not distinguish specific Israeli policies from Israelis or the right of Jews to be self-determined as Israelis.

Are their Jews who support Hamas? Right now I must tell you any Jew that would at this time is self-hating in my opinion. What else can I say. If you read its charter and read the speeches of its members and read its text books it preaches not just the destruction of Israel but attack on Jews world-wide.

Only a self-hating Jew would buy into that kind of b.s.

You can see the classic difference in a conservative and liberal Jew in comment by me (liberal-reform) and JBG (classic conservative). However you will never see us not agree that our existence as Jews is directly dependent on self-determination in a state. We may disagree on its policies but not on its moral imperative to survive and exist and resist terror.

The debate in our community is fairly typical of what would go on between me and JBG. We only debate certain things but not others. I can also say as much as I might find JBG a conservative on certain defence issues I do not for one second think on other issues he may in fact be more progessive then me. That is the problem when you try classify conservatives and liberals. Conservatives can actually be more flexible and tolerant then liberals.

[JB Globe]

"I think you are trying to say its possible there are Jews that don't find criticizing Israel in itself a reason not to vote for someone, and on that point I appreciate you saying that. That is a wonderful thing for a non Jew in my opinion to be able to understand in us."

- I guess I should clarify that I'm Jewish at this point. But it's one of my pet-peeves that non-Jews in general tend to view us and other ethnic/religious communities as monolithic in our politics - Israel being the case in-point. It also ticks me off when I see Jews or Jewish organizations with a certain agenda exploiting this for their political gain, which was my opinion with BB in this case.

[jdobbin]

- I guess I should clarify that I'm Jewish at this point. But it's one of my pet-peeves that non-Jews in general tend to view us and other ethnic/religious communities as monolithic in our politics - Israel being the case in-point. It also ticks me off when I see Jews or Jewish organizations with a certain agenda exploiting this for their political gain, which was my opinion with BB in this case.

This was written last month about how B'nai Brith has been quick to label people anti-Israel.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...0a-e2525d9b6bce

It is perhaps the last sentence that contains B'nai Brith's main problem here. It is growing increasingly tiresome to have that organization sound as if it speaks for the "Jewish people," among whom there is a much greater variety of viewpoints than there is at B'nai Brith. Regarding Coulon, it's important to note the Quebec-Israel Committee was quick to voice its disagreement with B'nai Brith.

But it's also troubling to see B'nai Brith act in a way that can undermine high-profile people's reputations by making an unfounded case against those it says are anti-Israel. Others have expressed views that B'nai Brith has labelled as anti-Semitic, xenophobic, intolerant, and so on.

Anyone who has read Coulon's columns, whether they agree with him or not, would need a very fertile imagination to brand his opinions as anti-Israel.

Last June, B'nai Brith also went after Serge Chapleau, La Presse's brilliant cartoonist. It called his cartoon of Mario Dumont dressed as a Hasid "grossly offensive" and a reminder of "the worst anti-Semitic ravings." To call this accusation false is an understatement.

Edited August 19, 2007 by jdobbin

[JB Globe]

This was written last month about how B'nai Brith has been quick to label people anti-Israel.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...0a-e2525d9b6bce

That article pretty much nailed it.

It bothers me as a Jew when I see Jewish organizations or individuals throwing around the terms "anti-semitic" or "anti-Israeli" llike they're nothing. Those terms shouldn't be used for political gain - they should be used when the situation warrants it, otherwise they become watered-down and people in general stop caring when they hear them.