Mixed Member Proportional representation

[mikedavid00]

Well that is interesting... but stupid. That would mean both the poor and the rich who pay no income tax would not be able to vote? mikedavid you have a lot of growing up to do.

The richest people pay the most taxes in dollars per capita. That's just factual.

[jbg]

Sometimes it's posts like these that make me muse whether a point system should be in place that a voter must pass before they are allowed to cast their ballot. At least Civics 101 would help......

Tell me about it.

I went to a Great Big Sea concert in New York City, met two Peterborough, Ontario schoolteachers, and wound up teaching them who Montcalm and Wolfe were and what the significance of the Plains of Abraham was. This was revolting, given that they are teaching Canadian children, I am certainly not Canadian, and I have an extremely limited knowledge of Canada.

[M.Dancer]

Tell me about it.

I went to a Great Big Sea concert in New York City, met two Peterborough, Ontario schoolteachers, and wound up teaching them who Montcalm and Wolfe were and what the significance of the Plains of Abraham was. This was revolting, given that they are teaching Canadian children, I am certainly not Canadian, and I have an extremely limited knowledge of Canada.

Trivia Question:

After the deaths of the two commanders, the surrenders were negotiated by their aides de camp

What language was used between the Aides?

[myata]

Well I agree with those who say that the referendum was a major missed opportunity in this election:

Lib: popular vote 41% parliament 65%

Con: -- 32% -- 25%

NDP: 17% -- 10%

Green 8% 0%

I'll divide the blame half / half between voters' apathy and general lack of interest and (far) less than adequate information and education campaign by the Lib government which came up as big beneficiary of the current system, see above.

[kuzadd]

Well I agree with those who say that the referendum was a major missed opportunity in this election:

Lib: popular vote 41% parliament 65%

Con: -- 32% -- 25%

NDP: 17% -- 10%

Green 8% 0%

I'll divide the blame half / half between voters' apathy and general lack of interest and (far) less than adequate information and education campaign by the Lib government which came up as big beneficiary of the current system, see above.

I voted for change.

and yes, the referendum was certainly a major missed opportunity.

I read somewhere 1 in 3 voted for change, I am quite amazed it was that many, given the near non-existent coverage, particularily on the telly, no discussion in the election campaign itself, less then adequate information, and when it did come, to little to late.

[guyser]

I voted for change.

and yes, the referendum was certainly a major missed opportunity.

I voted NO , but how was this a missed opportunity? The people didnt want it.

Just like the 2 other times that electoral reform was put forth, they died at the ballot. I see a trend. Leave it alone.

I read somewhere 1 in 3 voted for change, I am quite amazed it was that many, given the near non-existent coverage, particularily on the telly, no discussion in the election campaign itself, less then adequate information, and when it did come, to little to late.

Yup, about 2/3rds voted NO so 1 in 3 is right.

I found plenty of TV coverage. TVO had a very good show on this as did many of the other stations in this city.

The candidates wouldn't touch it and neither would you if running. Why get embroiled in something that does not bring you votes? They have 30 days to get the message out and no one would want to muddy the waters with MMP.

[kengs333]

Well I agree with those who say that the referendum was a major missed opportunity in this election:

Lib: popular vote 41% parliament 65%

Con: -- 32% -- 25%

NDP: 17% -- 10%

Green 8% 0%

I'll divide the blame half / half between voters' apathy and general lack of interest and (far) less than adequate information and education campaign by the Lib government which came up as big beneficiary of the current system, see above.

Yup, that's "democracy" for you; a ten percentage point difference between the Liberals and PC leads to a forty percentage point difference in representation in parlaiment. And 8% of voters are denied representation altogether.

[kengs333]

I voted NO , but how was this a missed opportunity? The people didnt want it.

Just like the 2 other times that electoral reform was put forth, they died at the ballot. I see a trend. Leave it alone.

Yup, about 2/3rds voted NO so 1 in 3 is right.

I found plenty of TV coverage. TVO had a very good show on this as did many of the other stations in this city.

The candidates wouldn't touch it and neither would you if running. Why get embroiled in something that does not bring you votes? They have 30 days to get the message out and no one would want to muddy the waters with MMP.

The YES side got closer to 40% which is in the same range as the Liberal popular vote. How ironic that 40% qualifies a party to hold a large majority in legislature, but denies Ontarians a truely democratic electoral system.

One has to assume that the people who voted YES were much more informed and politically sophisticated than those who voted NO. Democracy allows every adult citizen in a society to vote, which is good, but can also be bad at times. A number of factors influence people in voting the way they do, and often it comes down to fear, ideology, whims and indifference.

[M.Dancer]

Yup, that's "democracy" for you; a ten percentage point difference between the Liberals and PC leads to a forty percentage point difference in representation in parlaiment. And 8% of voters are denied representation altogether.

In Canada, democracy is local. The local ridings select their represntitives, not by some star chamber or by a collective of hemp weavers.....

The fact that the Green Party can't get more than 8 out of 100 people to vote for them is indicative that their platform had no province wide resonance. That fact that they couldn't get even one stinking riding to vote for them is indicative that no local voters consider them worthwhile.

And the voters as always are right.

[mikedavid00]

In Canada, democracy is local. The local ridings select their represntitives, not by some star chamber or by a collective of hemp weavers.....

The fact that the Green Party can't get more than 8 out of 100 people to vote for them is indicative that their platform had no province wide resonance. That fact that they couldn't get even one stinking riding to vote for them is indicative that no local voters consider them worthwhile.

And the voters as always are right.

I wouldn't agree with that.

A voter can be wrong.

[kengs333]

In Canada, democracy is local. The local ridings select their represntitives, not by some star chamber or by a collective of hemp weavers.....

You do know that "democracy is local" is a contradictory phrase. Democracy stands for the rule of the people/masses, not the rule of the local representatives, most of whom receive less than 50% of the vote in their riding. Our system dates back to pre-Confederation days when only qualified males could vote; the system was designed to maintain status quo by denying provincial-wide movements/sentiments from being duly represented, leaving governance in the hands of local wealthy elites.

The fact that the Green Party can't get more than 8 out of 100 people to vote for them is indicative that their platform had no province wide resonance. That fact that they couldn't get even one stinking riding to vote for them is indicative that no local voters consider them worthwhile.

Actually, 8/100 is a significant number. The fact that you would consider the political wishes of 8/100 voters in this province as insignificant really speaks volumes. People who are truly democratically minded respect the views of all people who participate in the process.

And the voters as always are right.

Does that include Germany in 1933? Pakistan in 2007?

[guyser]

The YES side got closer to 40% which is in the same range as the Liberal popular vote. How ironic that 40% qualifies a party to hold a large majority in legislature, but denies Ontarians a truely democratic electoral system.

The NO side got closer to 70%. How's that?

Lets deal in facts .The vote was 63.15% to 36.85%

It is not ironic in any stretch of the imagination . What you are comparing is apples to oranges.

63+% voted NO, and all other votes went yes for MMP.( It was a dumb system before and still is. This country has tried three times, all failures. )

McGuinty got 40% of the pop vote, but that doesnt mean that one OTHER party got the rest of the 60% vote. Can the second and third parties combined outvote Libs? Nope and you know it, thus a majority. Hell, I voted PC so .....

One has to assume that the people who voted YES were much more informed and politically sophisticated than those who voted NO. Democracy allows every adult citizen in a society to vote, which is good, but can also be bad at times. A number of factors influence people in voting the way they do, and often it comes down to fear, ideology, whims and indifference.

Actually the ones who voted for change were simpletons who listened to hyperbole and how it could make Ont better. The ones who voted NO found out for themselves how a minority govt and a new election with every new moon would be tiresome.

Both statements are ridiculous.

Who was behind the referendum? Was ti the Cit Coalition? ( I cant recall) Place your blame squarely in their corner. It was not up to the Gov to explain anything. I frankly the LIbs would have been stupid to do any explaining. They had 30 days to get their message out , not wasting their time with MMP crap was a smart move. You too would have done the same.

Edited October 11, 2007 by guyser

[Chuck U. Farlie]

No way of knowing without testing the theory,

but I bet MMP would have got a lot more votes if YES came first on the ballot instead of second... I bet a lot of people that voted NO just checked the first box without reading the question (or being informed about it)

[Saturn]

Ontarians are retards!

With FPTP, the number of votes that actually count in any riding = number of votes for candidate finishing second + 1, which is what...30% on average? The remaining 70% are worthless junk. Only a retard can support such an idiotic system and believe that s/he lives in a democracy. Last night the wide majority of Ontarians proved to be just such retards.

I pity the fools who couldn't afford 50 cents/year to have a reasonable voting system. I pity the fools who didn't have a third brain cell to know what they were voting for or against in that referendum but felt they had to vote anyway. And I pity the fools who continue to whine about the low voter turnout and about lazy, greedy, etc. politicians/governments.

In a democracy, you get EXACTLY the voting system you DESERVE and you get EXACTLY the government you DESERVE!

[kengs333]

Lets deal in facts .The vote was 63.15% to 36.85%

Yeah, let's start dealing with the facts now, unlike before the referendum when the NO side was just spewing total bs?

Actually the ones who voted for change were simpletons who listened to hyperbole and how it could make Ont better. The ones who voted NO found out for themselves how a minority govt and a new election with every new moon would be tiresome.

Every time that I heard MMP discussed in the mainstream media, they always made it out like nobody got it. It was too confusing, etc. So either the media was making this up to influence people who were unsure about MMP, or they were accurately reporting what the majority of people were thinking. Which do you chose (I hope the choices aren't "too confusing").

The fact of the matter is that the concept of MMP is not all that difficult; and it is a proven system. So the fact that the majority of Ontarians didn't get it speaks for itself.

Incidently, 36.85% is closer to 40% than it is 33.33%.

[guyser]

Ontarians are retards!

The people who got MMP on the ballot were. It was up to them to inform and educate. They didnt and it died, just like the other two times it was tried.

Not all Ontarians are, just the ones that live in Ottawa.

In a democracy, you get EXACTLY the voting system you DESERVE and you get EXACTLY the government you DESERVE!

And that is what we got.

[mikedavid00]

You do know that "democracy is local" is a contradictory phrase.

Not true.

If you are voting for a representative who is local, then that is surely democracy.

Each riding has about 100,000 people. (in toronto that can be litterally within 6 city blocks).

50% vote.

But what if 20-60% of those people have a special interest and have unusually high voting turn out?

Then they can sway an election in their favor.

The question ultimatly becomes 'should the GTA determine the outcome of the election?'

Well.. despite that 75% of the Ontario population is here are a chunk of the WHOLE countries revenue comes from here, I would say that they should have a say.

But here's food for thought:

"...what if 20-60% of those people have a special interest and have unusually high voting turn out?"

Now we have a problem don't we. We have an un natural phenomena in our political system that we need to deal with.

Send them back hom to where they come from if they are not employed.. Stop immigration NOW.

[mikedavid00]

McGuinty got 40% of the pop vote, but that doesnt mean that one OTHER party got the rest of the 60% vote. Can the second and third parties combined outvote Libs? Nope and you know it, thus a majority. Hell, I voted PC so .....

Lets keep this simple.

Ridings are 100,000 to represent them locally.

We vote for who we want and the party that gets most votes get's a majority.

If things are unfair in the provincial legislature, than adjust the seats and move on.

Also Guyser,

You saw how Canadians are indeed smart. Religous schooling, wacko, Euro style electoral systems, the people are smart and they know how to vote.

Why not just let the people decide on spending and immigration and other priorities.

The gov't DOESN'T NEED TO BE OUR DADDY.

Despite what Keng333 wants you to believe.

[mikedavid00]

No way of knowing without testing the theory,

but I bet MMP would have got a lot more votes if YES came first on the ballot instead of second... I bet a lot of people that voted NO just checked the first box without reading the question (or being informed about it)

That's not true.

The word on the street is that MMP meant there would be 'more parties in our parliment' and 'greens would get in'.

People voted against it.

The people were not wrong. They understood the truth and voted against it.

Actually, try to pass something that filters out small parties even further and you would probably get a YES becuase average normal people hate having so many parties.

[guyser]

Each riding has about 100,000 people. (in toronto that can be litterally within 6 city blocks).

Lets stop there.

York south weston 114,000

Toronto centre 121.000

Willowdale 129,000

Etobicoke North 108,000

Scarb Asiancourt 111,000

Want more?

Then they can sway an election in their favor

Good for them. All the power to them. Even though it was raining where they had to vote, they did and exercised their democratic rights.

What is your excuse?

FFB !

[guyser]

Also Guyser,

Why not just let the people decide on spending and immigration and other priorities.

So now you are confused about Federal vs Provincial responsibility?

[mikedavid00]

Lets stop there.

York south weston 114,000

Toronto centre 121.000

Willowdale 129,000

Etobicoke North 108,000

Scarb Asiancourt 111,000

Want more?

Good for them. All the power to them. Even though it was raining where they had to vote, they did and exercised their democratic rights.

What is your excuse?

FFB !

As I said, each riding ahs about 100,000 people.

It's nice you are learning something though. I do give you credit for that.

There's your emotions and opinions, then there's the truth.

Jennie?

[guyser]

As I said, each riding ahs about 100,000 people.

It's nice you are learning something though. I do give you credit for that.

There's your emotions and opinions, then there's the truth.

Jennie?

Let me fix it for you. Miked ha emotions, opinions but never the truth. That ok for you, since I could I suppose go back and list myriad incorrect stats, halftruths, fudges for ya.

But let me make this easy for you.

I owe you $129,000 , and I come with a cheque for $100, 000 and hand it off.

I am so pleased to know that you will reply " thats about right"

[mikedavid00]

So now you are confused about Federal vs Provincial responsibility?

Yes these refurendums should be federal.

I first brought up these issues in the past.

People from both left and right told me that people could not think for themselves.

I rebutted that the media and our gov't made them this way.

And when it came time for a referendum style election, look what happened.

NO - funding religious schools.

NO - MMP Euro/Islmaic style of gov't.

People aren't dumb. You just have to give them the chance to decide and they will know enough to make a good vote.

Don't believe me?

YES SIDE - http://youtube.com/watch?v=0-MWzjnBDwY

NO SIDE -

And what did they vote after all the funds and global warming hype?

The people voted NO!

[jbg]

Trivia Question:

After the deaths of the two commanders, the surrenders were negotiated by their aides de camp

What language was used between the Aides?

Probably that of the local FN tribe. Or maybe Canadian.

Edited October 12, 2007 by jbg