Mixed Member Proportional representation

Canadian Blue · October 3, 2007

Immigrants DON'T fight and die for this country!!

When I did my BMQ there were many people there who were born outside of the country. Your point is once again completely moot.

Canada is close to a 3rd world country split down ethnic and religious lines. We've lost or homogeny due to mass, mass, mass immigration and we are now split into groups who all want to get their hands into the public cookie jar.

No we aren't, do you have any idea what a third world country is.

The immigrants have not sucseeded thus far.
They came close, they have been thrown some bones, but have truly not succseeded yet.

So do these immigrants go into underground tunnels to plot our destruction?

This is why a debate on immigration is impossible, because it always becomes more about irrational fear than anything else.

And no, like MANY other countries, they cannot hold office unless they were born here.

The current governor of Michigan was actually born in Canada.

scribblet · October 4, 2007

I havn't had time to read the whole thread, but on the NZ issue, I did hear that there is a push on to have another referendum to get rid of their system.

I voted no.

kengs333 · October 4, 2007

I'd rather have politics dealt with in the legislature than on the streets. The legislature is intended to be a place where the people are represented, and if we happen to have a large immigrant population that doesn't feel their concerns are being taken seriously enough, then it only stands to reason that they could start a political party. Anyone can start a political party, so long as it has an agenda that is lawful. The fact of the matter is that we have a large immigrant population in this province--which includes me--and nothing can really change that now. The person who seems to have the biggest issue with this may want to reveal what party (ies) he votes for so that we can see whether he supported parties that allow such immigration to occur.

The problem with all of the complaints about MMP is that FPTP can also have its probelms; in Britain at the moment there are minor parties such as Health Concern and Respect-The Unity Party, both with one seat each. Is this not an example of how the FPTP is a flawed system? Perhaps we should get rid of FPTP as well.

kengs333 · October 4, 2007

That's just it thought.
Immigrants DON'T fight and die for this country!! And no, like MANY other countries, they cannot hold office unless they were born here.

The argument is that it WORKS for New Zealand becuase they have a normal homagenous country (like most other countries).

Canada is close to a 3rd world country split down ethnic and religious lines. We've lost or homogeny due to mass, mass, mass immigration and we are now split into groups who all want to get their hands into the public cookie jar.

The immigrants have not sucseeded thus far.

They came close, they have been thrown some bones, but have truly not succseeded yet.

When they finally penetrate into our Parliment system with religoius/ethnic lines, we are in trouble.

When they get their own schools funded with public money, we are in trouble.

The immigrants have not officially established a true power base in Canada yet.

The RCMP uniform is small fries. it's a sign, but not a true power base.

But wow the writing is on the wall. It could happen soon. If we get MMP, ethnic school fudning, then we have officially given them their first true establishment of a new power structure.

Your hysterical speculations are really pathetic. I really hope that the majority of Ontarians approach the topic with more intelligence and vote the only logical way: YES.

Michael Hardner · October 4, 2007

I hope it fails. The biggest failings of our system is that it is successful. Ontario is fat and happy, and as a result most people don't even get involved in the political process.

The political parties are focussed on getting elected, and managing optics. As a result, we have none of the leaders inspiring any hope in the electorate.

MMP doesn't solve any of this.

jbg · October 4, 2007

Right now immigrants are FAR under represented in our political system. I like it like that.
I feel this will help promote rogue parties of immigrants wedging their way into our political system kind of like how it's done in the middle east, pakistan, africa, bangledesh, samolia.

While it's undemocratic I reluctantly agree with you. Immigrants should be forced into the mainstream system through existing parties, so that their orientation becomes Canadian. We do not need "Pakistan in Canada".

capricorn · October 4, 2007

Anyone can start a political party, so long as it has an agenda that is lawful.

You mean, like the Bloc whose lawful (?) purpose is to break up the Country? :huh:

kengs333 · October 4, 2007

You mean, like the Bloc whose lawful (?) purpose is to break up the Country?

Technically, I think that the self-determination of peoples is not illegal, although the manner in which some try to achieve it can be. In all the years that the issue has existed, it has largely been non-militant. When the political process wasn't going the way they wanted, the Quebec people formed a political party both federally and provincially in order to have the issue addressed. It now appears that the issue has played itself out, and people in Quebec want to get on with life and participate in a prosperous Canada. Argueably, the same thing could happen with Indian issues, but the electoral system is no geared to giving isolated groups scattered across the country the same right to representation. As a result, we will have to continue to contend with annoying and regressive tactics like "site occupations," tires burning in streets, blockaded railways...

jennie · October 4, 2007

You mean, like the Bloc whose lawful (?) purpose is to break up the Country?

I think it is important to keep reality in mind:

Canadian-born population 80.9%

Foreign-born population 18.4%

Total visible minority population 13.4%

All others 86.6%

It seems to me there are a lot of threads and a lot of angst about immigration that really exaggerate the issue. Only 20% of Canadians are foreign born, and only 13% are visible minority.

I fail to see how these percentages can lead to so much apparent concern. I believe it is not reality but ideology that drives the concern.

Edited October 4, 2007 by jennie

kengs333 · October 4, 2007

Visibile minority is a relative term, though. Sometimes when I'm on the bus, the majority of riders are not "white". When I go downtown, the percentage of non-"whites" is considerably higher than 18%. Under these circumstances, someone in a similar position who encounters this on an almost daily basis is going to start feeling as they are in the minority. It doesn't matter what the percentages are in the rest of Canada.

Also, when you mention that 80.9% of Canadians are born in Canada, that doesn't mean that all of these people feel themselves to be exclusively Canadian. Many still have strong ties to ethnic communities. In some communities, this has already run three or four generations.

jennie · October 4, 2007

Visibile minority is a relative term, though. Sometimes when I'm on the bus, the majority of riders are not "white". When I go downtown, the percentage of non-"whites" is considerably higher than 18%. Under these circumstances, someone in a similar position who encounters this on an almost daily basis is going to start feeling as they are in the minority. It doesn't matter what the percentages are in the rest of Canada.
Also, when you mention that 80.9% of Canadians are born in Canada, that doesn't mean that all of these people feel themselves to be exclusively Canadian. Many still have strong ties to ethnic communities. In some communities, this has already run three or four generations.

I was referring more to mikedavid's fears of a political 'takeover'. It hardly seems likely.

mikedavid00 · October 4, 2007

I think it is important to keep reality in mind:
Canadian-born population 80.9%

Foreign-born population 18.4%

Total visible minority population 13.4%

All others 86.6%

It seems to me there are a lot of threads and a lot of angst about immigration that really exaggerate the issue. Only 20% of Canadians are foreign born, and only 13% are visible minority.

I fail to see how these percentages can lead to so much apparent concern. I believe it is not reality but ideology that drives the concern.

Those stats are outdated. Lets look at 10 years from now:

Visible Minorities in 2017

In 2017, Ontario will have 57% and B.C. will have 20% out of the total visible minority population in Canada, or 77% combined. There will also be considerable variation by metropolitan areas. Almost 75% of all visible minority persons will be living in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal in 2017. Furthermore, in 2017, more than half of the Toronto CMA will belong to a visible minority group under 4 of the 5 projected scenarios, and more than half of Canada's South Asians will be living in that city. Montreal will be mainly comprised of Blacks (27%) and Arabs (19%).

Languages Spoken:

Languages:

English (official) 59.3%, French (official) 23.2%, other 17.5%

mikedavid00 · October 4, 2007

I was referring more to mikedavid's fears of a political 'takeover'. It hardly seems likely.

That's becuase most people, including youth, are simply incapable of seing 10 years down the road.

10 years ago we could all get an education and a gov't job. This is no longer possible.

Things change in 10 years drastically.

guyser · October 4, 2007

. Sometimes when I'm on the bus, the majority of riders are not "white". When I go downtown, the percentage of non-"whites" is considerably higher than 18%. Under these circumstances, someone in a similar position who encounters this on an almost daily basis is going to start feeling as they are in the minority. It doesn't matter what the percentages are in the rest of Canada.

Well I think this is the problem. Just because of a lack of white one should feel as if they are a minority?

guyser · October 4, 2007

Those stats are outdated. Lets look at 10 years from now:
Visible Minorities in 2017

In 2017, Ontario will have 57% and B.C. will have 20% out of the total visible minority population in Canada, or 77% combined. There will also be considerable variation by metropolitan areas. Almost 75% of all visible minority persons will be living in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal in 2017. Furthermore, in 2017, more than half of the Toronto CMA will belong to a visible minority group under 4 of the 5 projected scenarios, and more than half of Canada's South Asians will be living in that city. Montreal will be mainly comprised of Blacks (27%) and Arabs (19%).

Languages Spoken:

Languages:

English (official) 59.3%, French (official) 23.2%, other 17.5%

Mehtinks you screwed up your numbers there mikey boy.

Jennie posted that 80% of all CDNS are born here. So thats 80% of 30M people.

Then you cutely try and counter with 77% combined visible minority. Yes , well, that is of the minority pop,which is nowhere near 30M , nor half nor a quarter of the total pop.

Here, if we had 100 immigrants and Toronto had 57%, we would have 57.

But since 80% of 30M = 24M.....umm shall I go on?

And one can be third gen born here and still qualify as a minority.

kengs333 · October 4, 2007

I was referring more to mikedavid's fears of a political 'takeover'. It hardly seems likely.

So what, I was referring more to your misuse of statistics.

kengs333 · October 4, 2007

That's becuase most people, including youth, are simply incapable of seing 10 years down the road.
10 years ago we could all get an education and a gov't job. This is no longer possible.

Things change in 10 years drastically.

Don't forget, old people don't have to live with the consequences of the policies they support. Hippies are conveniently dying off right when their ideals are proving to have been profoundly misguided.

kengs333 · October 4, 2007

Well I think this is the problem. Just because of a lack of white one should feel as if they are a minority?

So if a "white" lives in a city that is 65% non-"white" but the country on the whole is 70% "white," they "white" living in the city has no reason to feel like a minority?

guyser · October 4, 2007

So if a "white" lives in a city that is 65% non-"white" but the country on the whole is 70% "white," they "white" living in the city has no reason to feel like a minority?

Duly noted, my apologies. I read into that something that was not there

capricorn · October 4, 2007

Visibile minority is a relative term, though. Sometimes when I'm on the bus, the majority of riders are not "white".

Could it be that the "white" majority mostly travel by car and not on buses?

I wouldn't know if the majority riding the buses are visible minorities. I haven't taken a bus in about 15 years and don't plan on doing so. If I'm not driving myself, I take a cab.

mikedavid00 · October 5, 2007

Mehtinks you screwed up your numbers there mikey boy.
Jennie posted that 80% of all CDNS are born here. So thats 80% of 30M people.

Then you cutely try and counter with 77% combined visible minority. Yes , well, that is of the minority pop,which is nowhere near 30M , nor half nor a quarter of the total pop.

Here, if we had 100 immigrants and Toronto had 57%, we would have 57.

But since 80% of 30M = 24M.....umm shall I go on?

And one can be third gen born here and still qualify as a minority.

Yes. I cite minorities because studies show they do not consider themselves Canadian for the most part. They also hold racism and will never marry you or your son.

They are not Canadian and vote Liberal which studies prove.

mikedavid00 · October 5, 2007

So if a "white" lives in a city that is 65% non-"white" but the country on the whole is 70% "white," they "white" living in the city has no reason to feel like a minority?

I don't feel that she should be citing people born outside Canada, she should be citing visible minorities.

the CIA world factbook says that almost 18% speak something other than French or English and I feel that there is a serious problem with that. Her stats are also 6 years out of date when you consider that our population grows 1% each year from immigration. That's 6% now.

Mostly comprised of people from the third world who don't really give a damn about Canada.

Edited October 5, 2007 by mikedavid00

Canadian Blue · October 5, 2007

Yes. I cite minorities because studies show they do not consider themselves Canadian for the most part. They also hold racism and will never marry you or your son.

Once again, somebody painting entire groups of people with the same brush.

They are not Canadian and vote Liberal which studies prove.

If they have a Canadian citizenship then they are Canadian, and I doubt a study will be able to show otherwise. As for voting Liberal, what difference does that make. We see immigrants in the Conservative Party as well.

Mostly comprised of people from the third world who don't really give a damn about Canada.

Once again I've known many immigrants who have served in the Canadian Forces who seem prepared to give their lives for this country while you continue to bash them constantly.

jennie · October 5, 2007

Those stats are outdated. Lets look at 10 years from now:
Visible Minorities in 2017

In 2017, Ontario will have 57% and B.C. will have 20% out of the total visible minority population in Canada, or 77% combined. There will also be considerable variation by metropolitan areas. Almost 75% of all visible minority persons will be living in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal in 2017.

Furthermore, in 2017, more than half of the Toronto CMA will belong to a visible minority group under 4 of the 5 projected scenarios, and more than half of Canada's South Asians will be living in that city. Montreal will be mainly comprised of Blacks (27%) and Arabs (19%).

Languages Spoken:

Languages:

English (official) 59.3%, French (official) 23.2%, other 17.5%

Canadian-born population 80.9%

Foreign-born population 18.4%

Total visible minority population 13.4%

All others 86.6%

miked:

I don't feel that she should be citing people born outside Canada, she should be citing visible minorities.

I cited both.

I must point out that of your data, the only stat that can perhaps be compared to mine is the 20% speaking languages other than English or French, similar to the current Canadian born - Foreign born difference.

As guyser implied, there is nothing there that supports your contention of any huge difference in 2017.

I would also like to support the person who said that more white people drive in cars instead of taking transit.

miked I just think you are making mountains out of molehills on sensitive topics, and I find it unpleasant and certainly unnecessary.

scribblet · October 5, 2007

I never thought I'd agree with Ms Copps, but here is a quote from a Toronto Star column which I don't have the link for anymore. There is no doubt in my mind that the proposed system will give smaller radical groups, more clout than they should have.

SHEILA COPPS:
"Anyone who fears extremism should take a hard look at the upcoming Ontario Election.

-snip-

The proposed changes would open the door for more power for political and religious zealots. What do the burka wearing Muslims, evangelical Christians and the ultra-orthodox Jews have in common?

They are each inspired by the righteousness of their beliefs and represent a small minority in their fervour.

Most Muslims, like most Christians and Jews, respect the separation of church and state, and work hard to ensure that personal religious beliefs do not interfere with the rights of others.

The fear that a fanatic few are out to proselytize the world is not unique to a singe religion, nor is it a solely a Canadian problem. But if Ontario's electoral system is changed, we may find ourselves joining those countries where a vocal, organized minority dictates for the majority.

-snip- (explains two systems)

In the Israeli Knesset, (its Parliament) any party with 1.5% of the vote is entitled to occupy seats proportional to their vote.

In theory, the system was established to give voice to every citizen, the same rationale used in Ontario. In practice, it has lead to fractious political coalitions where extreme religious-based parties often hold the balance of power.

The proportional system institutionalizes extremist influence. Picture a minority parliament where a party with 3% of the vote is in control. That is exactly what is being proposed.