Social climate is SHIFTING on immigration!

[JB Globe]

JB Globe you are jumping to extreme conclusions based upon nothing at all.

Speaking of Argus you say he hates anyone who is not a white Christian. This is totally off base, since I am reading the same thread and I have not heard him say this . . . It is not racist

Do you consider the following statements, which were in the same post we both read by Argus, racist?

"And oh by the way we should suppress all of our own religious and cultural festivals and behaviour lest they offend the ethnic minorities - foreigners, that is - among us, or if we really must celebrate it then we have to be "inclusive" by also celebrating every other half-assed ethnic and religious festival from around the world."

Translation - compared to "Canadian festivals," "foreign" festivals are half-assed, aka - less-than. Aka - inferior.

"The little kids in school can't be allowed to draw pictures of Santa or Rudolph around Christmas unless they also get to celebrate Ramadan by, presumably, cutting the heads off little paper infidel dolls."

Translation - Muslims are all terrorists.

You're telling me you don't find this racist at all? Really?

[betsy]

Do you consider the following statements, which were in the same post we both read by Argus, racist?

"And oh by the way we should suppress all of our own religious and cultural festivals and behaviour lest they offend the ethnic minorities - foreigners, that is - among us, or if we really must celebrate it then we have to be "inclusive" by also celebrating every other half-assed ethnic and religious festival from around the world."

Translation - compared to "Canadian festivals," "foreign" festivals are half-assed, aka - less-than. Aka - inferior.

"The little kids in school can't be allowed to draw pictures of Santa or Rudolph around Christmas unless they also get to celebrate Ramadan by, presumably, cutting the heads off little paper infidel dolls."

Translation - Muslims are all terrorists.

You're telling me you don't find this racist at all? Really?

I know the question is directed to Jefferiah, but I would like to give my two cents:

The statements of Argus are not racist. They may sound that way....but to me, it sounds more like an expression of exasperation, frustration, despair, a feeling of helplessness over what is happening. We cannot judge a person just through a statement. We have to know the motivation behind that statement.

Spouting racial slurs does not automatically make one racist.

[JB Globe]

The statements of Argus are not racist. They may sound that way....but to me, it sounds more like an expression of exasperation, frustration, despair, a feeling of helplessness over what is happening.

So if a person is angry or frustrated or helpless, and they express that using racist language . . . It isn't racist?

That's a huge crock of _____ and you know it. The Klan was frustrated - frustrated that their white supremacy was being challenged by black folks and Jews who "didn't know their place" Germans were frustrated with their situation after WWI and used Jews as scapegoats - does that make it okay?

Everyone has frustrations in their lives, but we don't go around expressing that frustrations by becoming bigots - that's why racists are accountable to their own actions, you don't get a free pass.

We cannot judge a person just through a statement. We have to know the motivation behind that statement.

Of course you can judge someone based on their statements - if someone tells me that they think Jews are evil and control the world and should all die, I don't need to know their life story to know they're anti-semetic, end of story. What CAUSED them to be that way is of course something different, and it's usefull to know if you want to tackle racism, but if you're trying to determine if someone is racist or not - you don't have to memorize their biography if they're standing in front of you calling you a dirty Kyke. That's enough right there.

Edited September 28, 2007 by JB Globe

[old_bold&cold]

In my home I welcome many friends from many different cultures. While in my home I do not expect them to give up their cultures, but I also do not want them to slaughter goats or other animals in the religous festivals they may wish to celebrate. But no, I would not insist that a silkth remove his turban or his kirpan. But if I were in an area where metal detectors were used due to bans on knives etc. I would expect all to follow those rules without complaint. I do not stop people from praying, but then again I do not want to be exposed to it constantly either. I eat beef and cows are bred for meat and dairy, they are not worshipped by me. So why should I have to hear the ruccess by those who think I am bad for my ways and cultures.

In Canada we have what I would call a medium culture shock presence. It is not extreme in most ways and I do think that all immigrants should know before they come here, that we feel it is up to them to follow the laws of our land, and here we hold the laws of our land above all religious laws and rules. So if your religion can not accomodate into our laws, then do not come here as you would be breaking our laws. We welcome all religions that can be practiced within our laws and believe in the right of people having their own religions. No one is going to say you must be white anglosaxon , protestant, etc to come here. We only ask that you adapt to our laws and adapt your religion to our laws. For those who can not do this, then you need to find another place to immigrate to, as Canada is not for you. Now some may say this makes me a bigot because I will not allow for accomodation of religions outside of my own view of the law. But really I am just setting a code of conduct that Canadians already follow, and expect all newcomers to also. It really is not much to ask.

[Rue]

Well, I was unsure about what Mike David was saying as well. But may I point out to you that if 77 percent figure is correct, then it is also inevitably true that 53 percent of Canadians said this.

Mike David has 7 children---half of them are boys. How is this possible?

Duh. One is in the midst of a sex change operation.

[betsy]

So if a person is angry or frustrated or helpless, and they express that using racist language . . . It isn't racist?

A slur may be racist but it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is racist!

You're saying anyone who spout "Nigger!" to a black in the heat of anger is a klansman! That's a crock of bull and you know it!

You're saying it not to a race but to an individual who angered you!

Argus is expressing his anger over what he percieves is the encroachment on and deprivation of his own culture...and though his statements made racist slurs, does not necessarily mean that Argus, as a person is a racist!

Edited September 28, 2007 by betsy

[ScottSA]

Actually, you're incorrect when you say a Sikh would still be a Sikh if he left his dagger outside the classroom. It is an essential part of Sikhism that they wear the turban, and the Kirpan. Restricting them is a violation of the freedom of religion that we as Canadians claim to value.

Utter nonsense. Many Sikhs discard the turban and retain their Sikhhood, covering their heads only in Gurdwara...sort of like most Jews don the Yamaluk only in temple. In fact there's a name, coined by Sikhs, for Sikhs who get rid of their external symbology, but I can't recall it offhand. There is nothing whatsoever demanding that sikhs wear turbans, swords, or any other damned thing.

[ScottSA]

So if a person is angry or frustrated or helpless, and they express that using racist language . . . It isn't racist?

That's a huge crock of _____ and you know it. The Klan was frustrated - frustrated that their white supremacy was being challenged by black folks and Jews who "didn't know their place" Germans were frustrated with their situation after WWI and used Jews as scapegoats - does that make it okay?

Everyone has frustrations in their lives, but we don't go around expressing that frustrations by becoming bigots - that's why racists are accountable to their own actions, you don't get a free pass.

Of course you can judge someone based on their statements - if someone tells me that they think Jews are evil and control the world and should all die, I don't need to know their life story to know they're anti-semetic, end of story. What CAUSED them to be that way is of course something different, and it's usefull to know if you want to tackle racism, but if you're trying to determine if someone is racist or not - you don't have to memorize their biography if they're standing in front of you calling you a dirty Kyke. That's enough right there.

You seem roundly confused, throwing around terms like "racism" and "white supremacy" as if they are the same things.

And what's with this silly pre-occupation some people have with calling people "racist?" You have no idea what Argus' motivations are, but you certainly don't have anything you can hold aloft as proof of anything, much less any statements of his calling Jews "Kykes" [sic]. You're just flinging mud. Call me racist if you want, I don't care, but maybe Argus does, in which case you're just namecalling. "Racism" is just a silly way to namecall.

[jefferiah]

Do you consider the following statements, which were in the same post we both read by Argus, racist?

"And oh by the way we should suppress all of our own religious and cultural festivals and behaviour lest they offend the ethnic minorities - foreigners, that is - among us, or if we really must celebrate it then we have to be "inclusive" by also celebrating every other half-assed ethnic and religious festival from around the world."

Translation - compared to "Canadian festivals," "foreign" festivals are half-assed, aka - less-than. Aka - inferior.

"The little kids in school can't be allowed to draw pictures of Santa or Rudolph around Christmas unless they also get to celebrate Ramadan by, presumably, cutting the heads off little paper infidel dolls."

Translation - Muslims are all terrorists.

You're telling me you don't find this racist at all? Really?

Personally I think you are overanalyzing the comments. When you are angry about government money spending on festivals for every minor little group that demands the cash, you might say every half-assed festival. Complain about spending large amounts of money on a non-majority group to have a lavish party (which we must do or else we are all bigots apparently) and you can actually end up in front of a tribunal. When you are waiting in line forever at emergency you can remember that you wanted to pay for every half-assed festival. I would say 1/8th assed is an even better assessment since we subsidize cultural parties for people who make up this or even less than this of the population. Sort of like the 1/80th assed programming on CBC. It's 1/80th assed because thats the amount of people who enjoy half of these shows that we all must pay for. Do you dig? If this were not true about the CBC then they could simply become privatized today and make tons of cash right?

And then when Betsy mentions frustration you say well the KKK were frustrated too. Cmon JB, you are going overboard again. And people are smart enough to see through it. Are you though? Everytime someone gets frustrated lets compare them to the KKK. Come off it.

Edited September 28, 2007 by jefferiah

[Argus]

Argus you couldn't get any lower than you were already ... in social literacy.

Everything you write sounds like it's coming from an earnest, yet painfully ignorant adolescent. As such, your opinions hold little weight.

[Melanie_]

There is also a line in the Bible which says we are to pray at all times.

Do they sleep with their dagger on?

Seriously. come off it Melanie. You know it is not a big demand that they remove it for school purposes. I say if they don't like those rules they can leave.

But do you really want to tell others how to practice their religion? Isn't that what freedom of religion is all about? Sikhs around the world wear their kirpans all the time - every time you see a Sikh man wearing a turban, he is also probably wearing a kirpan. I'm not aware of any incidents ever happening in a school - are you? The Supreme Court decided that it was OK for them to be worn in schools, under certain conditions:

But the ruling re-establishes a lower court decision, which allows Sikhs to wear kirpans under certain conditions. The knife must be worn under the clothes and sewn into a sheath.

Under thoses conditions, "the kirpan is almost totally stripped of its objectively dangerous characteristics," the court said. "Access to the kirpan ... is now fully impeded by the cloth envelope sewn around the wooden sheath. In these circumstances, the argument relating to safety can no longer reasonably succeed."

Under these conditions, is there really an arguement against kirpans in schools?

[ScottSA]

But do you really want to tell others how to practice their religion? Isn't that what freedom of religion is all about? Sikhs around the world wear their kirpans all the time - every time you see a Sikh man wearing a turban, he is also probably wearing a kirpan. I'm not aware of any incidents ever happening in a school - are you? The Supreme Court decided that it was OK for them to be worn in schools, under certain conditions:

Under these conditions, is there really an arguement against kirpans in schools?

You'd best develop one before it goes too far and you start hearing arguments against Sikhs in school, never mind their helmets and armament.

[M.Dancer]

You'd best develop one before it goes too far and you start hearing arguments against Sikhs in school.........

They skew the math and science averages to high?

[mikedavid00]

So if a person is angry or frustrated or helpless, and they express that using racist language . . . It isn't racist?

Exactly.

Words are just words.

Actions matter most.

If you do not want your son or daughter marrying outside their race, then that sir, is racism.

If you want to have your own schooling system that cators to your own kind only, then that sir, is racism.

If you have a cultural group in a University that ionly welcomes to people of a certain skin color, then that sir, is racism.

If you hold a parade down a street to celebrate a color and creed, then that, is racism.

Just saying the 'N' word isn't racism.

Now ask your self, how many 'white Canadians' do you know that are guilty of the above?

Thought so.

Look in the mirror and tune in, turn on, and tune out of the CBC.

[mikedavid00]

But do you really want to tell others how to practice their religion? Isn't that what freedom of religion is all about?

they can do what they want in their personal life.

But we shall not accomodate. Not in our public state, and not in our laws.

The above two are just not happening.

How about we just have work permits and let people here to work... then the problem isn't an issue anymore.

And oh yes, we need to stop refugee landing on our doorstop.

Come to Canada, get detained, and then go home. Right at Pearson airport!

[Melanie_]

"We shall not accomodate!" You sound like you've watched one too many movies lately, MikeDavid.

[mikedavid00]

"We shall not accomodate!" You sound like you've watched one too many movies lately, MikeDavid.

I don't watch movies much.. i come here for my entertainment.