Is it time for "the west" to accept responsibility

[Jerry Galinda]

You know what, fine. Lets cut off all foreign aid into other countries. Pull out all of our troops and watch the world slaughter itself back into the stone age. Africa will just impolde. The Arab's will immediatley attack and attempt to crush Israel. Pakistan and India can go to war. Russia will attempt to reclaim Eastern Europe, North Korea will Invade South Korea. China will fuck someobody up hard, I would guess Siberia for the resources or the oil fields South of Russia. Take your pick. Let it all burn. Don't want us there, fine. But just to point out. Prior to 1945 the US was a minor player in world politics. It took TWO world wars to drive us out of isolation. But be my guest and feed your own people thats if your not too busy slaughtering them.

That's true. I'm not American but I agree with You.

[Higgly]

You mean that non proft organization supported through funding from Canada, the US, The UK, Australia, France, Sweden, Spain, Denmark, Germany and a cfew asian countries too?n The same organisation that was founded and created by the Ford and Rockefeeler Foundations? That Indiginous organistion headed up by the world famous Philipino scientist, Robert Zeigler?

The dickens you say!

Was there a point though to that factoid?

As I said, here's your bar of gold. Now we can kill you. I note you don't give any credit to the Government of the Philippines and only mention in passing "a few Asian countries". Is only the western contribution important to you, M.Dancer?

Edited September 26, 2007 by Higgly

[Higgly]

Doesn't upset me, I'm not the one with the personality disorder....and BTW what is figleaf's membership status now?

Beats me. Why don't you tell us?

By the way, as I said... attacks on the poster in place of debate. More M.Dancer classic.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Higgly

[Higgly]

Modern arithmatic? yeah....I think it was my grade 3 teacher. Although they are doing some interesting theorectical mathematics in Mogadishu I hear....

I hope it's not the same teacher who taught you spelling

[Higgly]

That is how we should respond to the theft of private property by "nationalizing" governments. It should have always been treated as cassus belli.

Interesting. So the oil fields of Alberta really belong to the companies that are taking out the oil. You ought to go out to Calgary and give a lecture at the Petroleum club. Better still, run for offfice. O wait, you don't live in Alberta. Where is it you live again?

Ahemajad (sp)?

Gol-lee. I can't spell it but I got a right to my opinion!

Things are no better now, especially for gays (don't worry, I'm heteorsexual).

How about a cite to back that up, JBG? Show us how Iran today uses torture to the same extent it did under the Shah.

Which way are the rowboats on the open sea going, towards Florida or towards Cuba?

Why did the Arabs insist of keeping them in "camps" rather than repatriating them? Israel repatriated Jewish refugees from Europe and Arabian lands rather than outfitting them as walking bombs.

This amazing racist thing you have that all Arabs are responsible for every other Arab and should just take them in so that Israel can just take their land. It's incredible that you don't even see what a bizarre concept this is.

And the West is what gives you freedom to post this drivel (aside from your excellent writeup of Gordon Lightfoot, and your coming to terms with the possible ill effects of rep-by-prop elsewhere).

Yes wonderful isn't it. Nobody can shut me up. Suffer JBG, suffer.

[Higgly]

- Injustices to native peoples. Guilt over this leads to the discussion and implementation of unreasonable laws and treaties, which give certain people advantages (such as tax exemptions) based only on their race.

If you are talking about land claim settlements, then those are being argued in Canadian courts. Guilt had nothing to do with it. These are legal matters settled with legal judgments. The treaties, whether you like their terms or not are legal agreements. That's just the way it is, whether you like it or not.

- Injustices to blacks in America. Guilt over this leads to the implementation of socially corrosive and ineffectual affirmative action programs, and popular support for such policies.

You must have missed the riots.

- As a result of guilt for past injustices in south Africa, western media is almost completely silent on the racist anti-white policies now implemented there.

I imagine you're thinking of Zimbabwe. Either that, or you are badly misinformed about South Africa. I have a very close friend who lived there for 5 years. Funny he never mentioned that.

- Damage to the environment. Guilt over this often leads media to point out the excesses and unsustainability of "western" lifestyle.

Well, no. That would be global warming that is causing that. I doubt there is a lot of guilt.

- Guilt over perceived past over-intervention in regions of Africa and the middle-east leads to inaction in places where western intervention is in fact needed. For example, Darfur.

Do a little reading. I don't you'll find guilt is a factor on Darfur.

- Inaction in Europe (as exemplified in many recent threads on this board) as certain areas are subjected to violence and lawlessness by immigrants of certain groups, in the name of tolerance, based on guilt over past mistreatment and intolerance.

Which outbreaks would those be? Why not take it case by case?

Just a few random examples off the top of my head.

Next time take your hat off first.

[Higgly]

....and BTW what is figleaf's membership status now?

Oh wait. Here's Figleaf. What does it say? Full Member? And your point is...?

[ScottSA]

This thread is the silliest one in Christendom. I spose it's helpful to have a good vent of self-hate from the hair shirt brigade, lest they get pent up and blow something up or tattle their way into a violent snitty poo, but it's just too silly to take seriously.

[Higgly]

This thread is the silliest one in Christendom. I spose it's helpful to have a good vent of self-hate from the hair shirt brigade, lest they get pent up and blow something up or tattle their way into a violent snitty poo, but it's just too silly to take seriously.

Well don't go away mad, ScottSA. Just go away.

[JB Globe]

Is anyone actually going to engage any of the points I brought up here? Is anyone going to debate this using actual facts?

Or is this sniping par for the course around these parts?

[Higgly]

I'm not going to debate you because I agree with you. African countries have been complaining about American and European subsidies for exactly the reasons you state, but of course the Americans and Europeans are so busy pointing their fingers at each other over subsidies, they couldn't give a fig for the African farmer. Subsidies are also used as economic weapons. For example, the subsidies paid by the US to American sugar beet growers in order to make their product competitive with Cuban sugar. Sort of a subsidy as a form of embargo.

The sniping is pretty much par for the course, I'm afraid. There is a lot of "attack the poster mentality" among a certain set when they disagree with your point or outlook. Look at the debate on the meaning of fascism between Black Dog and ScottSA in the "Fascism Returns to Europe" thread. Black Dog is debating knowledge and ScottSA is calling him names.

[bush_cheney2004]

Is anyone actually going to engage any of the points I brought up here? Is anyone going to debate this using actual facts?

Or is this sniping par for the course around these parts?

Actually, it's a fine mixture of both sniping and debate, with and without facts.

WRT farm subsidies, they are no worse (or better) than numerous other forms of government wealth transfer systems and support to enterprise that also violate free market principles. Consumers generally benefit from lower/stable price floors and reliable commodities supply.

The "playing field" was never meant to be fair....agriculture subsidies are just one of the competitive tools/advantages used by dominant economies intent on staying that way.

[Higgly]

Actually, it's a fine mixture of both sniping and debate, with and without facts.

WRT farm subsidies, they are no worse (or better) than numerous other forms of government wealth transfer systems and support to enterprise that also violate free market principles. Consumers generally benefit from lower/stable price floors and reliable commodities supply.

The "playing field" was never meant to be fair....agriculture subsidies are just one of the competitive tools/advantages used by dominant economies intent on staying that way.

Yes, but then you have the speechifying about the free market system and free enterprise, etc., etc..

If the market is allowed to work, we are told, then the consumer is the end beneficiary.

My guess is that it is the American lobbying industry that is a major factor in farm subsidies. Look at the gasahol market. An incredibly inefficient market. Ethanol from Brazil is cheaper. Ethanol produced in the US is net energy negative. But a massive lobbying effort from the US farm lobby has ethanol enshrined in the Bush government energy program.

[bush_cheney2004]

My guess is that it is the American lobbying industry that is a major factor in farm subsidies. Look at the gasahol market. An incredibly inefficient market. Ethanol from Brazil is cheaper. Ethanol produced in the US is net energy negative. But a massive lobbying effort from the US farm lobby has ethanol enshrined in the Bush government energy program.

There is no "Bush government"....ethanol had been enshrined in the USA for almost 100 years (see Ford Model T), losing favor to cheaper and higher energy density petroleum. Federal and state subsidies were adopted long before President Bush ever took office:

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6123

Edited September 27, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Higgly]

There is no "Bush government"....ethanol had been enshrined in the USA for almost 100 years (see Ford Model T), losing favor to cheaper and higher energy density petroleum. Federal and state subsidies were adopted long before President Bush ever took office:

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6123

The Bush Administration. My bad. My understanding is that ethanol is part of his response to US dependence on foreign oil. The result is that corn prices are rapidly escalating. Is that not correct?

I didn't read your off-site link.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Higgly

[bush_cheney2004]

The Bush Administration. My bad. My understanding is that ethanol is part of his response to US dependence on foreign oil. The result is that corn prices are rapidly escalating. Is that not correct?

Corn prices rise and fall due to various market conditions, including ethanol production, which pre-dates Bush by many years. My own farm belt state subsidizes ethanol far more than the Feds.

Corn prices are actually down from a peak in June.

[ScottSA]

Is anyone actually going to engage any of the points I brought up here? Is anyone going to debate this using actual facts?

Or is this sniping par for the course around these parts?

What points? I heard you mention dwarf wheat. Where do you think it came from? The west. Developed by Norman Borlaug, to be exact. How do you think it got there? Brought by the west, by means of Rockefeller, Ford, and US Aid to mention the 3 largest of the western aid agencies. Who do you think spread it throughout the east? People like my father, who spent his life researching strains of it to see which gave the greatest yields in various geographic locations, and fighting against ingrained agricultural tradition to spread it across the Indian subcontinent, in company with a host of other Canadian, US, and european expats across the rest of Asia, tripling and quadrupling the yield of those countries in the process and feeding millions who would have otherwise died from overpopulation due to western medicine. Tell me more about dwarf wheat and how the west socked it to the little brown people. Tell me more about how the west cause famines. What do they teach in schools these days anyway? What has gotten into the west that we breed such fools and self-haters?

Edited September 27, 2007 by ScottSA

[jbg]

What's a "neocon"?

Code word for Jewish person who adopts some allegedly conservative position. Can be non-Jews but implication is that it's a movement controlled by Jews or Israel.

[jbg]

Yes wonderful isn't it. Nobody can shut me up. Suffer JBG, suffer.

I gave you credit where credit was due. That wasn't/isn't too often.

[M.Dancer]

Oh wait. Here's Figleaf. What does it say? Full Member? And your point is...?

Not sure what that link was suppose to prove other than you usualy fail to prove things or you are confused and don't know what ou are ranting about. Keep flailing away though, I like the breeze.

Poor figleaf, if she was here now at least you would have some support......

Edited September 27, 2007 by M.Dancer

[M.Dancer]

Is only the western contribution important to you, M.Dancer?

Gosh no....some needs to supply the low rent location.

But when you hold up a western creation, funded by the west and staffed in a great part by westerners as a laurel of a non western something or other.....well, I chuckle smuggly at you.

[Higgly]

Corn prices rise and fall due to various market conditions, including ethanol production, which pre-dates Bush by many years. My own farm belt state subsidizes ethanol far more than the Feds.

Corn prices are actually down from a peak in June.

Do tell. From June. Now there's a significant time span.

[Higgly]

Code word for Jewish person who adopts some allegedly conservative position. Can be non-Jews but implication is that it's a movement controlled by Jews or Israel.

Here's the Wikipedia definition. Of course, there's always the Fiddler on the Roof version you can get from guys like JBG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocon

Did you know that Jews invented the wheel, too? Anybody heard from Ann Coulter lately?

Edited September 27, 2007 by Higgly

[Higgly]

Not sure what that link was suppose to prove other than you usualy fail to prove things or you are confused and don't know what ou are ranting about. Keep flailing away though, I like the breeze.

Poor figleaf, if she was here now at least you would have some support......

You asked what Figleaf's current status was. I answered the question. And you say I'm flailing. Just what was your point in asking the question? Or was there one?

[Higgly]

Gosh no....some needs to supply the low rent location.

And even more importantly, the problem and the market.

Of course for guys like you, M.Dancer, little brown people are cheap labour.

You should take a trip out there, M.Dancer. Try to stay out of Ermita, will you? IRRI is in Los Banos.