Is it time for "the west" to accept responsibility

[M.Dancer]

As a westerner, I will go on record that I am sorry we did not teach any of you (you who feel oppressed, what ever....) the value of crop rotation, reading and writing, democracy, entreprenurial enterprise, sanitation, human rights etc etc etc......earlier than we did.

If it helps, it took an awful long time for us to learn it too. Now it seems many of you (you who feel oppresses, what ever)are having some touble with crop rotation, reading and writing, democracy, entreprenurial enterprise, sanitation, human rights etc etc etc....If soi there;s no need to blame us for that.

[Michael Hardner]

We're also sorry that the emperor of China banned exploration because he was jealous of the gains made by entrepreneurs, thus falling behind Europe in trade.

[ScottSA]

For my part, I'd just like to say...say that....I'd deeply deeply *sob* really sorry. What *shudder, racking sob* have we done? *Snivel*

[M.Dancer]

For my part, I'd just like to say...say that....I'd deeply deeply *sob* really sorry. What *shudder, racking sob* have we done? *Snivel*

We fought an evil colonial against malaria and small pox......

[Higgly]

For my part, I'd just like to say...say that....I'd deeply deeply *sob* really sorry. What *shudder, racking sob* have we done? *Snivel*

Finally I am seeing some contrition for your name-calling.

[Higgly]

As for the rest of you, the points I made all have to do with direct and brutal intervention in the affairs of other countries. Not surprised that you would trivialize and try to spin it away, for example by claiming that because the west is not reposnible for absolutely everything, it is reposible for nothing. Then there are those who are using the immigration argument - they come here because life is better. I guess that would apply to the flood if Iraqis trying to come here too, would it...hmmmm? Interestingly enough, the number of Iraqi immigrants accepted by th US has plummeted since Bush declared "Mission Accomplished". Not that Iraqis don't want to go to the US, just that the US refuses to let them in.

As usual, I win the debate because nobody else showed up with credible arguments.

[Higgly]

We fought an evil colonial against malaria and small pox......

The biggest advancements against malaria have come from India. Does the M in M.Dancer stand for Mukerjee?

Edited September 25, 2007 by Higgly

[M.Dancer]

The biggest advancements against malaria have come from India. Does the M in M.Dancer stand for Mukerjee?

If there is a glaxosmith in india, I suppose you are right.

[M.Dancer]

As for the rest of you, the points I made all have to do with direct and brutal intervention in the affairs of other countries. Not surprised that you would trivialize and try to spin it away, for example by claiming that because the west is not reposnible for absolutely everything, it is reposible for nothing. Then there are those who are using the immigration argument - they come here because life is better. I guess that would apply to the flood if Iraqis trying to come here too, would it...hmmmm? Interestingly enough, the number of Iraqi immigrants accepted by th US has plummeted since Bush declared "Mission Accomplished". Not that Iraqis don't want to go to the US, just that the US refuses to let them in.

As usual, I win the debate because nobody else showed up with credible arguments.

Apparently it will be very warm today. I wonder what I will have for lunch?

[Higgly]

Apparently it will be very warm today. I wonder what I will have for lunch?

I imagine it would be whatever your tiffin wallah brings, neh?

Thanks for acknowledging the role of Indians in the latest and most significant malaria advancements.

[Michael Hardner]

As usual, I win the debate because nobody else showed up with credible arguments.

Higgy,

What does 'accepting responsibility' mean, in real terms ?

We can accept that the nations of our ancestors fought, vanquished and exploited... and won. What does it mean for us today ?

Wouldn't the other side have acted similarly at that time ?

[bush_cheney2004]

As for the rest of you, the points I made all have to do with direct and brutal intervention in the affairs of other countries. Not surprised that you would trivialize and try to spin it away, for example by claiming that because the west is not reposnible for absolutely everything, it is reposible for nothing. Then there are those who are using the immigration argument - they come here because life is better. I guess that would apply to the flood if Iraqis trying to come here too, would it...hmmmm? Interestingly enough, the number of Iraqi immigrants accepted by th US has plummeted since Bush declared "Mission Accomplished". Not that Iraqis don't want to go to the US, just that the US refuses to let them in.

Actually, you have not made any points at all, failing to define what the "west" is or has been responsible for, good or bad. The world doesn't parse so easily into your moral pronouncements or geographic analysis, and continues to mock any such position with immigration patterns. You even invoked the Geneva Conventions (erroneously) to bolster another argument, yet these are a very "western" idea. Can't have it both ways.

[Higgly]

The world doesn't parse so easily...

Well of course, there is that whole axis of evil thing.

Of course I've made points. You just don't want to accept them.

[Higgly]

Higgy,

What does 'accepting responsibility' mean, in real terms ?

We can accept that the nations of our ancestors fought, vanquished and exploited... and won. What does it mean for us today ?

Wouldn't the other side have acted similarly at that time ?

Higgly... please.

Accepting reponsibility is coming to terms with the fact that the outcomes we are seeing now are the consequences of actions taken in the past. I see little of that from the neocons in Washington, in Ottawa, and certainly not from the neocons here.

What we have are a lot of people who, not having learned anything from the current mess, still let themselves be lead around by the same old neocon war-mongering so constantly being broadcast into our living rooms by the same tainted press that beat the war drums for the invasion of Iraq.

[JB Globe]

Allow me to add to the mix - Agricultural Subsidies by Western Nations

Which means that a pound of wheat grown with fertilizer, pesticide, shipped across an ocean and sold in West Africa will always cost less than wheat grown up the road from the market. Meaning, farmers can only compete by cutting their prices, meaning they make next to nothing. Without any profit, they can't expand their operation or save money for education for their kids, meaning they can't move up the social ladder. This explains why pretty much the same amount of people are in agriculture now as there was right after independence.

Our trade policies, which we've pushed on developing nations by our most beloved proxy - the World Bank/IMF make it illegal for these nations to subsidize their farmers the way we subsidize our own. We hear G8 and EU leaders promoting free trade, but free trade isn't actually fair trade because the playing field isn't level.

Exploitative policies like this have much, much more to do with Sub-Saharan Africa's economic situation than a lack of development aid does.

And in this case the West is almost entire responsible.

God forbid Western farmers should have to compete with developing farmers on a level playing field.

[M.Dancer]

We force them to buy our wheat. We are evil. More evil than the people we force to buy our wheat. More evil than the farmers who haven't leaned modern farming techniques who we force not to learn. Evil we are. Feeding people. For less than they could feed themselves. Evil.

I am sorry, nest time, we will let them starve in poverty.

Edited September 25, 2007 by M.Dancer

[Higgly]

Allow me to add to the mix - Agricultural Subsidies by Western Nations

Which means that a pound of wheat grown with fertilizer, pesticide, shipped across an ocean and sold in West Africa will always cost less than wheat grown up the road from the market. Meaning, farmers can only compete by cutting their prices, meaning they make next to nothing. Without any profit, they can't expand their operation or save money for education for their kids, meaning they can't move up the social ladder. This explains why pretty much the same amount of people are in agriculture now as there was right after independence.

Our trade policies, which we've pushed on developing nations by our most beloved proxy - the World Bank/IMF make it illegal for these nations to subsidize their farmers the way we subsidize our own. We hear G8 and EU leaders promoting free trade, but free trade isn't actually fair trade because the playing field isn't level.

Exploitative policies like this have much, much more to do with Sub-Saharan Africa's economic situation than a lack of development aid does.

And in this case the West is almost entire responsible.

God forbid Western farmers should have to compete with developing farmers on a level playing field.

Good point. It was a real treat to watch the US and Europe slug it out over farm subsidies.

Take coffee as another example. You can sell your coffee to the coffee boss, or you can try to sell your coffee for what it is actually worth. If you sell to the coffee boss, you sell cheap and you live in poverty. Sort of like Juan Valdez, that smiling fool who rides around on a donkey while the rest of the world drives trucks. No wait. Juan Valdez does not ride the donkey. The donkey is carrying the boss' coffee. Juan walks in front of the donky - and he tips his hat as he goes by. Isn't trhat sweet?

If you sell your coffee for what it costs to grow plus enough for you and your family to enjoy a modest but happy life - say like a truck driver in Canada, then you have a hard time. This is why there are coffee shops around Toronto who sell "Fair Trade" cofee.

Tell me, M.Dancer, do you buy "Fair Trade" coffee?

[ScottSA]

I've rethunk my position in light of Higgy's incisive points, and I agree, but I think Momo is the one who caused it. The fault lies with him, not me. Did India invent hockey too btw?

[Higgly]

I've rethunk my position in light of Higgy's incisive points, and I agree, but I think Momo is the one who caused it. The fault lies with him, not me. Did India invent hockey too btw?

Momo? Museum Of Modern Obituaries? Mister Osama My Obligee? My Overwhelmingly Magical Oats?

[Michael Hardner]

Momo = Morris Dancer.

Morris, Scott and I are refugees from the old National Post board, and members of Scott's other board.

Scott's Forum

ScottSA is known as Scott over there, and Morris' name is unprintable. If I were to print it here, I would be banned.

Higgly:

Accepting reponsibility is coming to terms with the fact that the outcomes we are seeing now are the consequences of actions taken in the past. I see little of that from the neocons in Washington, in Ottawa, and certainly not from the neocons here.

What we have are a lot of people who, not having learned anything from the current mess, still let themselves be lead around by the same old neocon war-mongering so constantly being broadcast into our living rooms by the same tainted press that beat the war drums for the invasion of Iraq.

--------------------

Heading a government requires an ego as big as all outdoors. You're looking for these folks to transform into somebody else, and it just won't happen.

I would recommend resolving yourself to the idea that you share the world with people with a completely opposite world view to yours, rather than working to convince them to be like you.

[Borg]

" Is it time for "the west" to accept responsibility, for the mess the world is in?"

Hardly.

Back in the olden days - the middle east was a bastion of medicine and science. The old cultures have stagnated on the vine. They were doing this before North America was settled.

All those ancient civiliazations have no one to blame for their predicament but themselvs.

Personally I am glad I have hot water. I am glad I have electricity. And I am glad I have all the additional ammenities.

If those in the "other" parts of the world would show some initiative and settle their own probs they could get there as well.

It is not my fault. It is their own.

Borg

[Higgly]

" Is it time for "the west" to accept responsibility, for the mess the world is in?"

Hardly.

Back in the olden days - the middle east was a bastion of medicine and science. The old cultures have stagnated on the vine. They were doing this before North America was settled.

All those ancient civiliazations have no one to blame for their predicament but themselvs.

Personally I am glad I have hot water. I am glad I have electricity. And I am glad I have all the additional ammenities.

If those in the "other" parts of the world would show some initiative and settle their own probs they could get there as well.

It is not my fault. It is their own.

Borg

Hey, they had those things under Saddam, if that's your measure.

So in your books, every developing country should expect to be subservient and put up with anything the west gets it into its fool head just because it doesn't have reliable electricity? Good luck selling that one in Vietnam.

[Borg]

Hey, they had those things under Saddam, if that's your measure.

So in your books, every developing country should expect to be subservient and put up with anything the west gets it into its fool head just because it doesn't have reliable electricity? Good luck selling that one in Vietnam.

Nope.

I just do not care. I work for what I have.

They want to eat - work.

They want education - study.

Stop blaming everyone else for their troubles.

Do not like it my attitude? Tough. My ancestors ate meat and struggled to improve my lot in life.

Pack up and move if it is tough where they live. Others did it. And many of them died doing it. But they did succeed.

No one wiill miss those who blame and sit back and do nothing to improve THEIR OWN lot in life.

The west is here to stay.

The west does not prevent Mugabe from running out farmers - then it is beat up because there is no aide for the hungry.

You (attack coming - report me) are an idi&&t if you think the west is their trouble.

The trouble is people in other countries (their own countries) do not stand up and bark like dogs and try to improve.

Instead they suck the life blood out of aide organizations and cry foul.

And (attack coming - report me) idi**ts like you attempt to perpetuate the myth.

Ancient societies were not destroyed by us - they did it to themselves.

Time they fixed their own problems and we stopped wearing the hair shirt of guilt.

They do not want to improve their lot they can go hungry.

You can join them.

Borg

[Higgly]

Nope.

I just do not care. I work for what I have.

They want to eat - work.

They want education - study.

Stop blaming everyone else for their troubles.

Do not like it my attitude? Tough. My ancestors ate meat and struggled to improve my lot in life.

Pack up and move if it is tough where they live. Others did it. And many of them died doing it. But they did succeed.

No one wiill miss those who blame and sit back and do nothing to improve THEIR OWN lot in life.

The west is here to stay.

The west does not prevent Mugabe from running out farmers - then it is beat up because there is no aide for the hungry.

You (attack coming - report me) are an idi&&t if you think the west is their trouble.

The trouble is people in other countries (their own countries) do not stand up and bark like dogs and try to improve.

Instead they suck the life blood out of aide organizations and cry foul.

And (attack coming - report me) idi**ts like you attempt to perpetuate the myth.

Ancient societies were not destroyed by us - they did it to themselves.

Time they fixed their own problems and we stopped wearing the hair shirt of guilt.

They do not want to improve their lot they can go hungry.

You can join them.

Borg

Ancient societies have a way of surprising you. Take India and China, for example.

So people in developing countries don't work, don't pay for their food, don't go to school? I'm just going to put you in the "still living with my mom" pile.

And I have reported you.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well of course, there is that whole axis of evil thing.

Of course I've made points. You just don't want to accept them.

Sorry, but you will have to go deeper than "the world is a mess". Lacking any definition of what the "west" is or its culpability for said "mess" compared to the human condition since antiquity, you have demonstrated nothing except contempt for the very socio-economic circumstances from which you benefit. Human beings are far better fed, housed, clothed, sheltered, immunized, and educated in greater numbers than ever before. If this be the mess you speak of, we shall welcome more.