OPP finally act

[Posit]

Ahhh, more specious and juvenile insults. I guess you have a short attention span as I've clearly stated on numerous occasions that I retired after twenty years service. So as for your comment regarding joining the Army, been there, done that. Please try to pay a little more attention and spend less time making up lies about being a captain.

As for the rest. As usual in your world view, the Natives are as pure as the wind driven snow. I guess you forget about the cop they killed. Or is that just hunky dory as far as you are concerned? I don't know how old you are but I think you may have been too young to see the whole thing when it went down. I remember watching it. Plenty of natives throwing rocks and assaulting the troops with baseball bats and the like. I suppose in Posit world its just fine for someone to pitch rocks at your head and attempt to beat you with a baseball bat if they are Native. Not to mention the killing of a police officer. Which was the entire reason the military was called in initially.

I've noticed that, apart from the outright lies you like to spout, you also only ever present or even consider one side of the story. This is a rather severe short-coming on your behalf and is a major reason that many do not lend any weight to what you have to say.

Army Forums.ca

The 1990 Oka crisis was known in the Army as OP SALON. This op, the largest military operation in Aid to the Civil Power since OP GINGER (the 1970 October FLQ crisis), was conducted in response to a request for assistance from the Quebec Government, after the Surete du Quebec (the QPP) found itself unable to deal with the situation confronting it at the aboriginal reserve located at Oka near Montreal.

While there are still many stories floating around about what happened, I was attending Army Staff College in Kingston around the time it took place, and was fortunate enough to receive a briefing to our class from the then-CLS, LGen Foster. It was very interesting, not the least for the incompetence displayed on the part of the QPP (a force with a number of blots on its record...).

The natives, many of whom were quite well armed and were engaged in tobacco smuggling and other illegal activities, had fortified portions of their reserve in response to an earlier failed assault by the QPP at the site of a proposed development by the municipality of Oka, on what aboriginals claimed was their ground. The assault was a shambles: the QPP fired teargas but a number of the officers did not have respirators. In the confusion that followed, the only fatality occurred: a QPP constable who, IIRC, was shot by another QPP in error. The Indians easily resisted the assault. In due course the QPP realized that they needed help, and the process was initiated to request military assistance from the CDS via the Govt of Quebec.

The military force that was deployed consisted mainly of 5ieme GBMC from Valcartier and Gagetown, but it was a truly joint force as it included fully armed CF-18s, armed naval elements on the nearby St Lawrence, and other assets. Army assets included the full range of battalion weapons, artillery, tanks and AEVs. A perimeter was established around the Reserve and the famous stand off began. An interesting point made by the CLS was that in one case the Army negotiated to allow an aboriginal to be brought out of the Reserve to go to a local hospital. The condition from the Indian side was that he was to be given safe passage and not fall into the hands of the QPP. According to Gen Foster, the result was that the Indian was placed in the hospital, but guarded by soldiers against the QPP!

There was quite a bit of sympathy for the aboriginals around the country, from the usual quarters but from some surprising ones as well: while I was at Staff College, the City Council of Kingston voted to send the aboriginals blankets and medicine (due to pressure from various left-wing types on and off Council). The military were of course made to look like fascist monsters but overall we conducted ourselves well, including at such potentially lethal incidents as the Mercier Bridge confrontation. In general IIRC the Army displayed a much higher level of discipline and competence than that shown by the hapless SduQ. (Who later on wanted to buy their own Leopards...scary!!)

The post-op analysis and intel stuff indicated that the Mohawks were well armed-there were reports of .50 cal, sniper weapons, and LAWs. Fortifications had been constructed, including propane cylinders wired to electrical initiator circuit. There were also persistent rumours that the local Mohawks had been reinforced by natives from the US who had US military experience.

Fortunately, the stand off ended without serious injury or death (less the one poor QPP) and offers a useful model to study ACP ops.

I'll never forget the comment made by a Botswanan Major who was sitting in the mess one afternoon and watching it on TV:

"In my country we give them five minutes then we kill them all"

Lefty Canadians who still winge about the role of the military at Oka might want to consider how this event might have played out in 80% of the world, as opposed to the professional but forceful manner in which we managed it.

Cheers.

[M.Dancer]

Nice post from the writer. Completely debunks the lies you have been spreading like manure. Do you read the stuff you C/P or do you rely on oral reports?

[jennie]

Nice post from the writer. Completely debunks the lies you have been spreading like manure. Do you read the stuff you C/P or do you rely on oral reports?

Actually it says Marcel LeMay was killed by a QPP bullet. I didn't know that for sure. It has not been made public.

Secondly: Do you really expect the army to crow about its soldiers who threw two young girls over the bridge? Cnances are the soldiers in question never told their officers, and if course the Mohawks would not deal with any Canadian officials to report it.

The 'report' is in the film Rocks at Whiskey Trench" posted in another thread.

[M.Dancer]

Actually it says Marcel LeMay was killed by a QPP bullet. I didn't know that for sure. It has not been made public.

Secondly: Do you really expect the army to crow about its soldiers who threw two young girls over the bridge? Cnances are the soldiers in question never told their officers, and if course the Mohawks would not deal with any Canadian officials to report it.The 'report' is in the film Rocks at Whiskey Trench" posted in another thread.

No but I would expect charges....but there were none so I expect it is simply more of your bullshit.

Good to know that about the Mohawks.....that they wouldn't even lodge a compaliant with their own police......

[jennie]

No but I would expect charges....but there were none so I expect it is simply more of your bullshit.

Good to know that about the Mohawks.....that they wouldn't even lodge a compaliant with their own police......

Charges would require that the Mohawks make an official report, which they would not do. The QPP are not their police.

Edited September 25, 2007 by jennie

[jennie]

oops

Edited September 25, 2007 by jennie

[AngusThermopyle]

Actually I didn't know that it was one of their own who shot the cop, interesting information. Also interesting is the fact that the brutal fascist military provided safe passage for the Native person then guarded him from the QPP.

Now lets see all the rationalizing and dancing begin from the Native apologists corner.

[M.Dancer]

Charges would require that the Mohawks make an official report, which they would not do. The QPP are not their police.

So why don't they lay charges with the Mohawk Peacxekeepers. You know, the police who have jursidiction in Kahnawake.

The smell of cattle munure grows.........

[jennie]

So why don't they lay charges with the Mohawk Peacxekeepers. You know, the police who have jursidiction in Kahnawake.

The smell of cattle munure grows.........

Some traditional people, those most often involved in land issues, are not inclined to participate actively in Canada's police and court system, including the Band controlled police, in some cases. It simply is not part of their culture to do so, I think. Instead, they made a film for Canadians to learn about the incidents.

In this case, they would be up against the military in court? Not going to happen.

[M.Dancer]

Some traditional people, those most often involved in land issues, are not inclined to participate actively in Canada's police and court system, including the Band controlled police, in some cases. It simply is not part of their culture to do so, I think. Instead, they made a film for Canadians to learn about the incidents.

In this case, they would be up against the military in court? Not going to happen.

Blowing and sucking. So basically they are anarchists. They sceam and whine, moan and complain about their rights and land, and when it comes down to the fact they they have the rights and obligations of an autonmous nation including an indiginous police force, you say they refuse to acknowledge that, not part of their culture. (But film making is?)

Bullshit. 100% lies and Bullshit.

They are no different than the hells angels. Not pat of their culture to respoect the law either.

Go away Jennie, You are a fraud and a phony, you make up excuses on the fly and when it's shown you are full of it, you make up another. Find another site to spam, this one has your number.

[kengs333]

...

Edited December 29, 2007 by kengs333

[Posit]

Her interest in the issue seems to go well beyond simple concern; it seems to have become an obsession. There's an obvious personality disorder behind all of her "activism".

Hmmmm come to think of it there seems to be a missing gene that has retarded your ability to learn.....

[jennie]

Bullshit. 100% lies and Bullshit.

Speaking of bullshit!

Look I don't know the answer to the specific question you are asking.

However, the reserve police are hired by the elected Band Council, not the Traditional people.

If that means nothing to you ... buzz off to a thread you know something about.

[Posit]

Speaking of bullshit!

Look I don't know the answer to the specific question you are asking.

However, the reserve police are hired by the elected Band Council, not the Traditional people.

If that means nothing to you ... buzz off to a thread you know something about.

Ummmm I don't think there is a thread about "nothing", but there may be quite a few porn sites where M.Dancer is the major contributor.....

[Charles Anthony]

To everybody who has participated in this thread:

Stop the insults and stop the rude language and stop the personal attacks.

This discussion is degenerating into childish nitter-nattering very rapidly.

[M.Dancer]

Speaking of bullshit!

Look I don't know the answer to the specific question you are asking.

However, the reserve police are hired by the elected Band Council, not the Traditional people.

If that means nothing to you ... buzz off to a thread you know something about.

In other words they are no different from survivalists, anarchists and doomsday cults.

So why bother with them, they aren't even intrested in working with their own people.

[jennie]

So why bother with them, they aren't even intrested in working with their own people.

They simply do not easily trust agents of Canada's government.

[M.Dancer]

They simply do not easily trust agents of Canada's government.

So the Mohawk Peacekeepers are Canada's Agents?

With your mental twists and turns, you're wasting yourself here...you could be with cirque de soliel

[jennie]

So the Mohawk Peacekeepers are Canada's Agents?

I don't know in that particular case, but if they are hired by a Band Council, they may be seen that way in some places.

[ScottSA]

Speaking of bullshit!

Look I don't know the answer to the specific question you are asking.

However, the reserve police are hired by the elected Band Council, not the Traditional people.

If that means nothing to you ... buzz off to a thread you know something about.

That's what he's saying...you don't know the answer to most questions, but you just make up answers anyway, and it's probably no coincidence that your answers always seem to make to noble savage come out on top. Like Momo said, we got your number. You're actually your allies worst enemy, if only you knew it. Not to mention the fact that Posit is on your side, which is rather like riding into battle on a warhorse dragging a plow, or trying to reach the speed of sound with the help of a drag chute...

[Posit]

I don't know in that particular case, but if they are hired by a Band Council, they may be seen that way in some places.

Actually many of the Mohawk Peacekeepers are a branch of the OPP in Ontario. While they are given some autonomy, for the most part they have to answer to the OPP.

Remember Larry Hay?

[jennie]

Actually many of the Mohawk Peacekeepers are a branch of the OPP in Ontario. While they are given some autonomy, for the most part they have to answer to the OPP.

Remember Larry Hay?

Yes! When does his lawsuit against the OPP come up? Commissioner Fantino suspended him as Chief of Police at Tyendinaga, because Hay said the RCMP and OPP are racist. Judge Sydney Linden also said that about the OPP in the Ipperwash Inquiry report, and nobody suspended him! The court case will be interesting!

However, we were talking about Kahnawake, why the girls didn't report it when they were thrown off the Mercier bridge by Canadian soldiers. I am not sure about the relationship there, though I know there was a Mohawk Peacekeeper at the bridge at times.

[ScottSA]

However, we were talking about Kahnawake, why the girls didn't report it when they were thrown off the Mercier bridge by Canadian soldiers. I am not sure about the relationship there, though I know there was a Mohawk Peacekeeper at the bridge at times.

Perhaps the Great Spirit caught them and wafted them gently to the ground in a puff of woodsmoke and sweetgrass. Hey, isn't burning stuff bad for the environment? Speaking of which, is burning tires a native custom?

[jennie]

Perhaps the Great Spirit caught them and wafted them gently to the ground in a puff of woodsmoke and sweetgrass. Hey, isn't burning stuff bad for the environment? Speaking of which, is burning tires a native custom?

Vicious malice is sooooo 'attractive'.

[Rue]

What I find strange is that these Bozo's consider Oka to be a great victory, some victory.

Our guys were under express orders to minimize damage to the Mohawks. I bet for all there exceptional "woodcraft" they didn't know our boys were watching them from the trees. Amazing how our guys can disappear once they put their Ghillie suits on. As everyone knows, we have some of, if not the best snipers in the world.

Hang on a second. Bare with me. Yes the fact that the Canadian Military was restrained as you is a testament to its strength and honour but I think you may be mistaking the audience you might need to teach that to.

That said, and I can only ask you to trust me on this keeping in mind you think I hiss, aboriginal peoples know about strength coming from restraint.

Please don't make the mistake in thinking they all are violent and believe in violence and confrontation because you have seen that manifested in some people who may have called themselves warriors.

That would be no different from me saying anyone who joins the army is a violent sadist who joined because he wants to kill people.

Look there are some angry young aboriginals and some violent aboriginals. Of course. But you are also very well aware there are angry young non aboriginals and no shortage of violent non aboriginals.

You know for example a soldier isn't about violence and the reason you wanted to become one was your sense of honour and wanting to serve not because you wanted to kill.

You also know any idiot can carry a gun and shoot it-but a disciplined soldier learns about honour and dignity and respects the implications of his having to be lethal and certain experiences he will have to go through is something he will never discuss precisely because of the sanctity that comes with them.

So now follow me. The aboriginal peoples consist of many people within their society. Only a fraction of them are actually violent or believe violence is the means to achieve their resolution. To think they all believe in the kind of violence you are affronted by would be no different then me assuming you are an ignorant facist violent rambo.

See the problem is the average person never interacts with a soldier-they only see them on t.v. so their impression of them is usually false as its based on John Wayne bullshit.

Likewise with aboriginal peoples. In reality we live seperated and apart from them just as we do soldiers. You are live on a military camp restricted from the public - they are in reservations. When we do see soldiers off the camp, its in limited, specific encounters, likewise with aboriginals.

When we see soldiers its most often ina negative association where they are engaging in what we are told is fighting and killing or dying. When we do hear about aboriginals its also usually with a negative reference, i.e., homelessness, alcoholism, children sniffing glue.

We base our conceptions on soldiers based on myths just as we do aboriginal peoples.

Either way it leads to bullshit negative generalizations is what I am saying.

In your case you have a uniform. In their case the uniform is their skin colour and race. Either way we tend to stop at the surface and don't go further and find out what really made you want to be a soldier or what really is the basis of how aboriginal peoples believe in the law.

So no. You of all people do not have to prove yourself to me-simply telling me a soldier is enough.

That is also why when someone says to me they are aboriginal, I do not expect them to prove anything to me, it is just knowing they are.

After that it is upt o me to find out your traditions and history just like I do their traditions and history.

It is the very reason I respect a soldier that I respect aboriginal peoples.

So my point?

Those people you think define what a warrior is may very well have a lot more spiritual learning to do within their own society before they really can understand what it is to be a warrior just as you know there are many people in the army who may have made it past basic training but they sure as hell have a lot more learning to do.

Hey-some never make it. They get past the basic training but you know they won't make it in the army precisely because they can never really learn to restrain themselves. Likewise with aboriginal peoples. It may be some of their people just never spiritually develop to the level where they can learn to live in harmony with the powers and forces around them.

I hope you see what I mean.What you think is the enemy is present in all humans. What you see as the enemy, i.e., a human who will not restrain themselves, is in all of us. That enemy wears many uniforms. Its apperance is not consistent and where it comes from is not consistent.

So what I am saying is as a soldier, you do not have to justify your honour to me. You joined because you were honourable. That was never the issue.

The only issue is getting you to see there is honour and dignity within the aboriginal peoples' world as there is in your military world and that you are not on the opposite divides of dignity and decency as you might think exists. They are actually right behind you holding on to you so you don't fall over the divide and take them with you.