OPP finally act

[jbg]

That's very interesting. Do you know what the dancer's name is?

In the interests of the safety of my older son and the well-being of his school I won't attempt to find out though it would be quite easy. Note I did not identify where this dance was held. I may be interested in e-politics; my real-life family and friends are more important.

[jbg]

Kanonhstaton (Gaw-no-staw-do)

Kanonhstaton (Gaw-no-staw-do) is what he told me Caledonia is now called. Thanks. Edited October 21, 2007 by jbg

[kengs333]

...

Edited December 29, 2007 by kengs333

[kengs333]

...

Edited December 29, 2007 by kengs333

[ScottSA]

As far as they are concerned, Canada already declared war on them at 4:45 am April 20 2006 by invading their territory with 150 OPP who brutally attacked 20 unarmed men, women, elders and youth on Kanonhstaton (Gaw-no-staw-do). Later, with reinforcements from the entire Six Nations community, the women joined arms and walked the OPP off the land, where the OPP have respectfully remained ever since.

War? They don't have a clue.

[Posit]

War? They don't have a clue.

Actually, it is you that don't have a clue. For the same reasons that the US weren't successful in Vietnam and won't be in Iraq, and for the same reason that Canadians will not be successful in Afghanistan, a war with indigenous peoples would never succeed. Armies and soldiers are involved in any conflict because it is a job. Freedom fighters and indigenous people are involved because of a principled cause. And most importantly it is impossible for a soldier to differentiate between a citizen and the opposition.

[ScottSA]

Actually, it is you that don't have a clue. For the same reasons that the US weren't successful in Vietnam and won't be in Iraq, and for the same reason that Canadians will not be successful in Afghanistan, a war with indigenous peoples would never succeed. Armies and soldiers are involved in any conflict because it is a job. Freedom fighters and indigenous people are involved because of a principled cause. And most importantly it is impossible for a soldier to differentiate between a citizen and the opposition.

What in the world are you talking about? If this were war, these "warriors" would be lying in piles expiring their last burp of beer, and the rest of us would be paying a great deal less in guilt money to further their...err...."freedom fighting." They figure it's heroic to run around playing bushman warrior in army surplus camou as long as no one actually fires at them. I say if they want war, they should get what they want.

Incidently, that's US standard issue camou they're running around in, modified to "native warrior" standards with a few strategically placed beer stains; not stone age feathers and breach clouts. I wonder why they don't go traditional?

[jbg]

Actually, it is you that don't have a clue. For the same reasons that the US weren't successful in Vietnam and won't be in Iraq, and for the same reason that Canadians will not be successful in Afghanistan, a war with indigenous peoples would never succeed. Armies and soldiers are involved in any conflict because it is a job. Freedom fighters and indigenous people are involved because of a principled cause. And most importantly it is impossible for a soldier to differentiate between a citizen and the opposition.

Remember, in the European takeover of North America, the Europeans were not hobbled by political correctness, and had a vital ally; smallpox.

The Iraq and Viet Nam struggles could easily be won if news reporters weren't daily reporting military operations as atrocities. We have a media that considers roadside bombers' sensibilities on a par with helpless civilians. Heck, some were even bellyaching that the treatment of Saddam was cruel.

[jbg]

Incidently, that's US standard issue camou they're running around in, modified to "native warrior" standards with a few strategically placed beer stains; not stone age feathers and breach clouts. I wonder why they don't go traditional?

There's no "shame" in dragging savages out of the stone age and setting them up with the conveniences of modern living. If they liked the stone age so damned much, they could have and would have stayed there. In fact, I don't seem to hear a great clamour for a return to the sylvan harmony of ripping each other's hair out by the roots and driving herds of buffalo over cliffs in an as yet undiscovered secret ceremony of the natural stewardship we hear so much about.

I think you're overstating the case. The combination of smallpox (sh*t happens) and the introduction of such pattern-destroying practices and substances as Christianity and alchohol have made that well-nigh impossible.

The polytheistic worshiping practices of pre-Columbian natives worked well with living on the land; Christianity did deprive many natives of the learning of ancient ways that sustained them. Alchohol; what more can I say. The damage was clear, obvious and brutal. And smallpox, by eliminating 95% of the poplations (source, Mann, 1491) destroyed the leadership structure and morale of society with its patternless, savage attack on the natives.¹

¹I am posting this identical post at one other location. The posts being responded to were in two threads but had similar themes.

[ScottSA]

I think you're overstating the case. The combination of smallpox (sh*t happens) and the introduction of such pattern-destroying practices and substances as Christianity and alchohol have made that well-nigh impossible.

The polytheistic worshiping practices of pre-Columbian natives worked well with living on the land; Christianity did deprive many natives of the learning of ancient ways that sustained them. Alchohol; what more can I say. The damage was clear, obvious and brutal. And smallpox, by eliminating 95% of the poplations (source, Mann, 1491) destroyed the leadership structure and morale of society with its patternless, savage attack on the natives.¹

¹I am posting this identical post at one other location. The posts being responded to were in two threads but had similar themes.

I am hardly overstating the case. If Canadian Indians want to "return to the land" in a very real sense, there is nothing at all stopping them from picking up where they left off in 1492. Sure there'll be a few less of them, but they certainly have all the land and more that they could possibly need. But they won't return. They won't for the same reason I have no intention of returning to the blissful pre-columbian life of scratching out a living on a bleak Scottish hillside in hopes that I can live out my alotted 30 or so years of life expectancy before the Sassanatch or the clan next door kills me and my family. I'll leave it to your imagination why not. But unfortunately for the Indians, romanticizing and bemoaning the loss of that "lost way of life" means free everything, so their leaders will keep lying, and they'll keep sinking into the mire of putrified mythology and alcohol.

[jbg]

I am hardly overstating the case. If Canadian Indians want to "return to the land" in a very real sense, there is nothing at all stopping them from picking up where they left off in 1492. Sure there'll be a few less of them, but they certainly have all the land and more that they could possibly need.

Turning the clock back is impossible as well as unlikely. Rebuilding the shattered social heirarchies, languages, etc. would not be feasible.

Now where you are right is that throughout history there have been movements of peoples around the globe. Where one group comes, another dies off or leaves. Or the newcomers give up (as in Europeans' attempts to colonize Africa and most of Asia).

[ScottSA]

Turning the clock back is impossible as well as unlikely. Rebuilding the shattered social heirarchies, languages, etc. would not be feasible.

Now where you are right is that throughout history there have been movements of peoples around the globe. Where one group comes, another dies off or leaves. Or the newcomers give up (as in Europeans' attempts to colonize Africa and most of Asia).

Or they fight.

[Posit]

You naitivity is laughable Scott. You think in a war that warriors would were camo like the armed forces would? That's silly. They would no doubt be wearing silk suits and walking down Bay Street beside you. There would be no imaginery wildness war in Canada against the natives. And if there were - if the military decided to turn their weapons against indigenous people, you can bet that it would be fought in the bedrooms of our communities, in the office places and industry of our urban centres. And that is why the US is not only unsuccessful in Iraq, but are deathly afraid of home grown terrorism. You can't shoot what you can't identify and the military is trained to avoid civilian casualties, and freedom fighters and insurgents are not. In fact their terror on the world depends on civilian targets. What makes you think a home grown war with anyone would be any different? (Keep in mind 80% of native people live off reserves in urban centres)

[kengs333]

You naitivity is laughable Scott. You think in a war that warriors would were camo like the armed forces would? That's silly. They would no doubt be wearing silk suits and walking down Bay Street beside you. There would be no imaginery wildness war in Canada against the natives. And if there were - if the military decided to turn their weapons against indigenous people, you can bet that it would be fought in the bedrooms of our communities, in the office places and industry of our urban centres. And that is why the US is not only unsuccessful in Iraq, but are deathly afraid of home grown terrorism. You can't shoot what you can't identify and the military is trained to avoid civilian casualties, and freedom fighters and insurgents are not. In fact their terror on the world depends on civilian targets. What makes you think a home grown war with anyone would be any different? (Keep in mind 80% of native people live off reserves in urban centres)

This kind of rhetoric is most unfortunate; you're inflaming a situation that doesn't need this kind of nensense, and you're essentially admitting that the Indians would be willing to result to armed insurgeancy if they don't get there way (we've all seen how they already resort to violence and other illegal activities to try to get there way.) If it ever did come to an armed conflict, don't expect things to go the way of Iraq. First of all, the Iraqi insurgents are much more organized and have access to large amounts of explosives; shells, bombs, etc. that were left over from the Iraqi army and which the US didn't secure--that situation doesn't exist in Canada. The only kind of bombs you people could make are like those used in Oklahoma City, pipe bombs and the like. Face it, though, if you people try to set one of those off, it's pretty much going to be the end of the Indian race in Canada. It will just be a green light for anyone who has any issues with Indians to pick up a gun and start taking pots shots and the numbers speak for themselves. The Six Nations reserve has 20,000 people on and off--if you subtract the number that are in jail, that are elderly, are young children, you've probably got about 8,000 in total against about 8 million Ontarians who meet the same criteria. Armed violence is something that will never work out in your favour; to even speculate on such a thing just proves further that you people have gone off the deep end.

[ScottSA]

You naitivity is laughable Scott. You think in a war that warriors would were camo like the armed forces would? That's silly. They would no doubt be wearing silk suits and walking down Bay Street beside you. There would be no imaginery wildness war in Canada against the natives. And if there were - if the military decided to turn their weapons against indigenous people, you can bet that it would be fought in the bedrooms of our communities, in the office places and industry of our urban centres. And that is why the US is not only unsuccessful in Iraq, but are deathly afraid of home grown terrorism. You can't shoot what you can't identify and the military is trained to avoid civilian casualties, and freedom fighters and insurgents are not. In fact their terror on the world depends on civilian targets. What makes you think a home grown war with anyone would be any different? (Keep in mind 80% of native people live off reserves in urban centres)

I guess we'd have to resort to Boer war tactics then, eh wot? We're already halfway there, so all we'd have to do is cut off the welfare cheques and declare victory.

[Posit]

I guess we'd have to resort to Boer war tactics then, eh wot? We're already halfway there, so all we'd have to do is cut off the welfare cheques and declare victory.

Genocide has been tried and First Nations are still here. Got give them credit for surviving any number of attempts to wipe them out, and so far they haven't kicked back.

[kengs333]

Yes, you better not respond. Only a matter of time.

[Wild Bill]

I'm new to this forum so please bear with me as I start a learning curve on the mechanics and etiquette of posting here.

I've just read this thread from start to finish. There have been no new posts for a few weeks. Since then that poor old gentlemen has come out of his coma and been allowed to go home. Somehow it didn't seem to me to be much of a fair fight between him and some native teenagers.

I was surprised and puzzled by Jennie's constant citing of the rock throwing video from Oka. I'm also puzzled by the reaction of her and others on her side about such negative actions from non-native communities. They seem to label this as blatant racism.

I'm not steeped in aboriginal relations but my job for many years as a salesman has given me some insight into human nature. I think Jennie and her supporters totally missed the point. The rock throwing at Oka came about because the natives had frustrated the townsfolk for so long with their blockade that the resentment could no longer be controlled. The reactions from the Caledonia townsfolk have been remarkably few and gentle but there is obviously a great deal of anger and resentment towards the native protesters. The town is now an economic basket case and people's equity in their homes has been wiped out. Even the landmark "Oasis" hamburger/milk shake stand of many decades is now likely to close, due to the almost total disappearance of tourists.

The key factor common to both Oka and Caledonia would seem to be that the protesters allowed their tactics against various levels of government to make the non-native surrounding populations into "cannon fodder". Folks in Oka had an aggravating LONG detour that added hours to their work day that went on for months. The people of Caledonia not only had an aggravating road blockade but lost their power when towers were torn down and transformers were blown up. It may be true that it would be impossible to prove it was because of native protestors that the power went out but it would be absurd to suggest the townspeople would have done this to themselves.

No, it seems obvious that the native protesters just didn't seem to have any foresight about collateral damage. Footage of some of the native spokespeople talking at Caledonia makes some of them seem totally blind to why the townsfolk were upset!

You can't punch someone in the face and then say "Hey, you mustn't get mad at me! I only pasted you because the Government FORCED me to do it! You should be supporting ME as my cause is just!"

It is just simple human nature to resent being used in this way. Even if the protesters at Caledonia were to win everything they've been demanding it's a virtual certainty that they will be considered pariahs when they go into town for a long, long, time.

I also have a problem understanding references to Natives being "sovereign". To me, you're either sovereign or you aren't. You can't demand to be treated as your own nation and yet be financially dependent on another country. For them to keep giving it to you then becomes not aid but tribute!

It's really a shame. Six Nations gave us people like Robbie Robertson and some mighty fine blues musicians. Now few people would consider heading into Caledonia for some night life, or tourist shopping during the day.

If I were a developer I don't see how I could ever justify developing any where near Six Nations lands, disputed or otherwise. How could I be sure that even if I completed the project it might become a war zone ten years later?

If I were a politician how can I settle land claims without looking like an appeaser to all the other voters who I need to keep in power? The natives have lost so much of the "ordinary Joe" support. It has actually turned negative towards them!

Anyhow, just couldn't resist throwing in this post, for what it's worth. I'd be interested in any comments.

[jennie]

I'm new to this forum so please bear with me as I start a learning curve on the mechanics and etiquette of posting here.

I've just read this thread from start to finish. There have been no new posts for a few weeks. Since then that poor old gentlemen has come out of his coma and been allowed to go home. Somehow it didn't seem to me to be much of a fair fight between him and some native teenagers.

I was surprised and puzzled by Jennie's constant citing of the rock throwing video from Oka. I'm also puzzled by the reaction of her and others on her side about such negative actions from non-native communities. They seem to label this as blatant racism.

I'm not steeped in aboriginal relations but my job for many years as a salesman has given me some insight into human nature. I think Jennie and her supporters totally missed the point. The rock throwing at Oka came about because the natives had frustrated the townsfolk for so long with their blockade that the resentment could no longer be controlled. The reactions from the Caledonia townsfolk have been remarkably few and gentle but there is obviously a great deal of anger and resentment towards the native protesters. The town is now an economic basket case and people's equity in their homes has been wiped out. Even the landmark "Oasis" hamburger/milk shake stand of many decades is now likely to close, due to the almost total disappearance of tourists.

The key factor common to both Oka and Caledonia would seem to be that the protesters allowed their tactics against various levels of government to make the non-native surrounding populations into "cannon fodder". Folks in Oka had an aggravating LONG detour that added hours to their work day that went on for months. The people of Caledonia not only had an aggravating road blockade but lost their power when towers were torn down and transformers were blown up. It may be true that it would be impossible to prove it was because of native protestors that the power went out but it would be absurd to suggest the townspeople would have done this to themselves.

No, it seems obvious that the native protesters just didn't seem to have any foresight about collateral damage. Footage of some of the native spokespeople talking at Caledonia makes some of them seem totally blind to why the townsfolk were upset!

You can't punch someone in the face and then say "Hey, you mustn't get mad at me! I only pasted you because the Government FORCED me to do it! You should be supporting ME as my cause is just!"

It is just simple human nature to resent being used in this way. Even if the protesters at Caledonia were to win everything they've been demanding it's a virtual certainty that they will be considered pariahs when they go into town for a long, long, time.

I also have a problem understanding references to Natives being "sovereign". To me, you're either sovereign or you aren't. You can't demand to be treated as your own nation and yet be financially dependent on another country. For them to keep giving it to you then becomes not aid but tribute!

It's really a shame. Six Nations gave us people like Robbie Robertson and some mighty fine blues musicians. Now few people would consider heading into Caledonia for some night life, or tourist shopping during the day.

If I were a developer I don't see how I could ever justify developing any where near Six Nations lands, disputed or otherwise. How could I be sure that even if I completed the project it might become a war zone ten years later?

If I were a politician how can I settle land claims without looking like an appeaser to all the other voters who I need to keep in power? The natives have lost so much of the "ordinary Joe" support. It has actually turned negative towards them!

Anyhow, just couldn't resist throwing in this post, for what it's worth. I'd be interested in any comments.

The government ignores them unless Canadians are screaming at their governments.

The government has ignored Six Nations for over 200 years. It's our turn to feel the pain.

They are sovereign. The payments are their money in trust with Canada, and Canada isn't even keeping up with the interest payments on what it owes them in leases, let alone paying for the settled land.

Of course, the blockades, all of the local discomfort could have been avoided if the 150 OPP officers had not attacked 21 unarmed women, men youth and children in the middle of the night with excessive force. I believe it was the Mayor and the developers and the local Judge that brought that about, so I guess they reap what they sow.

[jbg]

I'm new to this forum so please bear with me as I start a learning curve on the mechanics and etiquette of posting here.

Good post, and welcome aboard. In October, in Lower New York a FN representative from one of the Iriquois Nation gave a misleading presentation of the Caledonia situation, using the FN name for Caledonia, at a dance demonstration. I approached him after the dance, and asked if it was Caledonia and he said "yes, but we call it _______". I forget or can't pronounce what he said.

The 11 year olds in the audience were fooled. I wasn't.

[kengs333]

The government ignores them unless Canadians are screaming at their governments.

The government has ignored Six Nations for over 200 years. It's our turn to feel the pain.

They are sovereign. The payments are their money in trust with Canada, and Canada isn't even keeping up with the interest payments on what it owes them in leases, let alone paying for the settled land.

Of course, the blockades, all of the local discomfort could have been avoided if the 150 OPP officers had not attacked 21 unarmed women, men youth and children in the middle of the night with excessive force. I believe it was the Mayor and the developers and the local Judge that brought that about, so I guess they reap what they sow.

Oh, right, same old bs. If the government has been ignoring Six Nations for 200 years, then why has it been funnelling money into the place for who knows how long??? Has anyone actually ever calculated the amount of money that the government has paid these people all this time? it must amount to several billion, at least.

By the way, has anyone figured out who really fire bombed that architectural treasure you guys used to use as an "embassy"?

[Posit]

Oh, right, same old bs. If the government has been ignoring Six Nations for 200 years, then why has it been funnelling money into the place for who knows how long??? Has anyone actually ever calculated the amount of money that the government has paid these people all this time? it must amount to several billion, at least.

By the way, has anyone figured out who really fire bombed that architectural treasure you guys used to use as an "embassy"?

The money that Six Nations receives from our government represents less than 50% of the total interest that is due on their trust, alone. At the rate we are going we are adding $1 billion every 10 years to the trust that WE owe THEM. And that doesn't include any values of lands that were leased or sold to which they have not received payment in full. As it stands WE are indebted to Six Nations, alone, to the tune of over $1 trillion...and it is growing every week we do not settle the land claims....

And now the Courts have rule that WE MUST pay fair value for land and resources, with compounded interest.

You really haven't a clue what you are talking about. Perhaps you should ask gramps why you think and talk the way you do.....

[kengs333]

The money that Six Nations receives from our government represents less than 50% of the total interest that is due on their trust, alone. At the rate we are going we are adding $1 billion every 10 years to the trust that WE owe THEM. And that doesn't include any values of lands that were leased or sold to which they have not received payment in full. As it stands WE are indebted to Six Nations, alone, to the tune of over $1 trillion...and it is growing every week we do not settle the land claims....

And now the Courts have rule that WE MUST pay fair value for land and resources, with compounded interest.

You really haven't a clue what you are talking about. Perhaps you should ask gramps why you think and talk the way you do.....

I'll tell you what; both of my grandfathers--I know who they are because the sired their children legitimately and supported their families through think and thin--were men like you could never be. They worked, they toiled, they suffered through unspeakable hardships that make what your Indian friends went through pale in comparison. And despite all that, they never abandoned their families, never became alcoholics, drug addicts, wife beaters, or common criminals. They made no excuses; never, ever made excuses. When they had their land and homes taken from them, they picked themselves up and got right on with their lives, because they had a responsibility to their families and society. In the end they both lived full lives, died moral, decent, good men. If I talk, think, act, and face life as they did, then I have nothing to be ashamed about.

Canada owes nothing to Six Nations, they have done little to deserve anything; from the very beginning they have been unable to look after their own affairs, and worked themselves into a hole of their own making. What the courts rule means little; as usual, you will only place value in it if it suits your agenda. And just because the courts may now sometimes rule in favour of Indians, doesn't mean that the rulings are any less unjust than they were in the past. In the end, I guess it really doesn't matter how much money the courts award Six Nations; no amount of money can fix the problems they have; it will likely only fuel the problems.

[Riverwind]

And now the Courts have rule that WE MUST pay fair value for land and resources, with compounded interest.

No they have not. A single court ruled that compound interest could be used in some cases. That does not automatically translate to all cases. The court also ruled that you can't assume that the money was left in a bank account collecting interest and that some of the capital would be spent.

[kengs333]

You really haven't a clue what you are talking about.

One other thing... I think I'm much more well informed about about early Ontario history than you are. You used to post some pretty factually challenged stuff about the claims that the Iroquois have to the Grand River Valley prior to the Haldimand Proclamation, denied and made up stories about the manner in which the Iroquois mistreated the Huron and Neutrals. You only know a history that you've been fed by the people you hang out with, and God knows what limited education they have. I'm wondering if you've even ever been to a university, or if you've even graduated from high school. I think you're not exactly in a position to question somebody else's level of education when you've demonstrated a serious deficit in this respect yourself.