Dion's bringing up Khadr.

[Visionseeker]

Mental health professionals? You mean quacks? No, I haven't spoken to any quacks. Are you alleging Khadr is insane? Do you think all those religious wackos in the fundamentalist movement can be magically "cured" by some guy with a goatee talking to them and telling them it's all their mothers' faults for not loving them enough?

"Quacks", you are so right. That entire arm of our healthcare system sells nothing but snake oil. They cannot be trusted as they will turn on people like your completely lucid self and suggest that you have a severe inclination towards paranoia so as to allow psychopath roam free.[/sarcasm]

I mean, what the hell... you're acting like a religious zealot can be cured by a psychologist! Gee! Maybe we should have tried that against the hard-core Communists in the fifties too!

I see exactly what you mean. If it wasn't for Joseph McCarthy we would've all been overrun by the Bolshevik bastards.[/sarcasm]

Post traumatic stress treatment? You are completely misapplying terms and ideas here. This guy is not a victim of stress, okay. He's been raised a certain way, in a certain religion. Historically, people like that have allowed themselves to be tortured to death rather than change their views. This guy is not going to change his religious beliefs because of one hour sessions with a shrink. As for de-programming, that only works when it's being used against people who have had a thin layer of indoctrination pasted over a lifelong base of social behaviour and beliefs. That is far from the case here. This man has been raised since birth to be a religious fundamentalist. He has fought and killed, seen his father and brothers killed in the cause. He is not about to give it up because Doctor Phil has a gentle chat with him.

No, they're pretty much know-nothings when stacked up against a hard-hat directing traffic in front of a road crew. Does the term "soft science" mean anything to you? Psychology is famous for pronouncing people perfectly sane and cured the day before they slaughter their neighbours. It is an intuitive "science" without any real solid base of provable fact. That is why for every diagnosis in a criminal case you have a counter-diagnosis from the other side.

Mindless, unthinking liberal blather. Send him back to Afghanistan and let them hang him.

Mindless gut following pseudo-conservative tripe. The "soft science" in this exchange is manifest in the rantings of a science denier who believes that his instincts are superiour to specialists with decades of experience.

I pity you Argus, I really do. Because I know that you will never seek the help that you so richly require.

Khadr is eventually going to be realeased. Accept it.

[ScottSA]

Mindless gut following pseudo-conservative tripe. The "soft science" in this exchange is manifest in the rantings of a science denier who believes that his instincts are superiour to specialists with decades of experience.

I pity you Argus, I really do. Because I know that you will never seek the help that you so richly require.

"science denier?" Are you suggesting that psychology is a science? Only uneducated people would come close to saying that. Psychologists would be the first to "deny" that they are scientists. Do you even know what a scientist is? What do you think we used to do in the Faculty of Political 'Science?'

Psychology is science only insofar as it attempts to seek truth. So far it has found very little of it, and certainly no absolutes.

[Argus]

Well he isn't getting it where he is, for certain, amd that is no excuse for not bringing him home.

Well yes, but you could say the same about Paul Bernardo. So far as I know he's not getting any "treatment" either. Do you want him set free too?

[Argus]

Mindless gut following pseudo-conservative tripe. The "soft science" in this exchange is manifest in the rantings of a science denier who believes that his instincts are superiour to specialists with decades of experience.

I pity you Argus, I really do. Because I know that you will never seek the help that you so richly require.

Khadr is eventually going to be realeased. Accept it.

Why you feel the need to champion a man who would gleefully slit your throat, and hold your head aloft as he praises Allah is beyond me.

As for your diatribe about psychologists - you clearly know virtually nothing about psychiatry or psychology. You clearly have not bothered to even consider the uses and applications of either practice, and your assumption that you can "cure" Khadr of his religious fanaticism through psychology would be laughable if it weren't so utterly ludicrous. The Soviets used to try and "cure" people who were opposed to Communism in asylums, but I think even they realized that was more in the nature of punishment than actual rehabilitation.

You believe that anyone who has beliefs which are strongly contradictory to your own must be insane and that insane people must all be treated and 'cured' so they share your beliefs. This is an unfortunately common belief among the less educated, less intelligent mass of the squishy Left. It mirrors some of the practices in North Korea, Cuba and the Soviet Union, so we can see where those practices come from. But aside from that lesson on how dangerous the Left is those beliefs serve no useful purpose.

[kimmy]

"Quacks", you are so right. That entire arm of our healthcare system sells nothing but snake oil. They cannot be trusted as they will turn on people like your completely lucid self and suggest that you have a severe inclination towards paranoia so as to allow psychopath roam free.[/sarcasm]

Mindless gut following pseudo-conservative tripe. The "soft science" in this exchange is manifest in the rantings of a science denier who believes that his instincts are superiour to specialists with decades of experience.

Khadr is eventually going to be realeased. Accept it.

You keep ducking the question of what is going to compel Khadr to be treated by any of these specialists with decades of experience.

Also, allow me to present Argus's point in a less colorful manner so as to not sidetrack this discussion with sniping and so on:

The problem with Khadr is not some treatable mental illness. The problem with Khadr is that he was raised from infancy in a family that indoctrinated him with beliefs that are incompatible with our society.

He might need a psychiatrist to help him recover from his experience in Gitmo. But more than that, he needs to be deprogrammed from terrorist jihadi propaganda.

Well he isn't getting it where he is, for certain, amd that is no excuse for not bringing him home.

The excuse for not bringing him home is that he's a hazard to public safety.

-k

[cynic43]

You go againthrow things like you actually have some sort of support in numbers. You do not and I can tell you that to most Canadians what you propose is only a very tiny minority. You will have to prove to me that numbers lie with your views, as if you look around the board here very few will take your point of view. So Hrrumph that

Just because this board is populated by a majority of knuckledraggers doesn't mean most Canadians agree with your point of view

[ScottSA]

Just because this board is populated by a majority of knuckledraggers doesn't mean most Canadians agree with your point of view

The last resort of stupid people is to call smart people stupid.

[jbg]

The US military court found that he was NOT an unlawful combatant. I find a lot of imaginative making up of 'facts' and fearmongering on this page, but not a lot of insight into the real issues.

It's wonderful how you have a pailful of spit and bile for the United States when it suits your purposes, but you applaud our courts when they rule in a mannner you approve of.

I feel you are willfully inconsistent.

[jbg]

Same question to you: if we can't prosecute this guy, then under what pretense can we hold him and force him to undergo "deprogramming"? Under what pretense could Canadian law allow Khadr to be detained and "deprogrammed"?

Under the politically incorrect but real world correct view that much of Islam is a death cult.

[jbg]

I say we bring him home and provide services here. What's the big deal?

So, you'd have him call Suicide Prevention before strapping a bomb onto himself before going to a movie theatre or shopping mall?

[old_bold&cold]

Just because this board is populated by a majority of knuckledraggers doesn't mean most Canadians agree with your point of view

I can tell you that most of the Canadian people do not give a rats ass what happens to Khadr, and you can tell that by there being no public out pouring of guilt when articles about his case have been printed in newpapers. The immigrant population does not even try to support him, so why should we.

In his world he became a man at age 13 and could even have had one or two wives by now. This is the lifestyle he was raised in. He went to join the terrorist cause of his own free will and fought and killed for their cause. People do not wish him to come back to Canada, and the fact that the USA will probably just send him back to afghanistan is quite alright by me and I would say by the majority of people. Just look at how little your pleadings have helped your cause here, that you have to call us knuckle draggers. Just by your method of posting it shows you already lost any argument that might have helped your cause. But I guess maybe you are just disappointed because you can not seem to get many people to think the same as you. To bad, so sad.

[jbg]

Just because this board is populated by a majority of knuckledraggers doesn't mean most Canadians agree with your point of view

Excuse me.

I worked on the McGovern campaign in 1972. In 1982 I worked for five (5) months providing legal services for the poor at no charge. One of the law partners I work under is a Jamaican black female. I am hardly a "knuckle-dragger". I would want that kind of trash, like Khadr, taken out, not brought back into my living room.

[Visionseeker]

You keep ducking the question of what is going to compel Khadr to be treated by any of these specialists with decades of experience.

There are any number of methods that can be used that would see him immediately committed upon arrival. The most staight forward would be to have him evaluated at Gitmo and, if the assessment reveals that he represents an immediate danger to himself or the community by reason of mental illness, the Crown can secure an order that he be committed to a pshychiatric facility for treatment.

The problem with Khadr is not some treatable mental illness. The problem with Khadr is that he was raised from infancy in a family that indoctrinated him with beliefs that are incompatible with our society.

You contradict your own argument. Indoctrination or "brainwashing" is a disorder that can be corrected when the victim is removed and protected from his/her controller(s). It matters not whether the planted beliefs are religious or otherwise, it's simply a matter of preventing their reinforcement and enabling self-scrutiny. Breaking the mould is actually the easy part once the therapist earns the victim's trust, picking-up the pieces after the break-through is the more complicated process.

He might need a psychiatrist to help him recover from his experience in Gitmo. But more than that, he needs to be deprogrammed from terrorist jihadi propaganda.

The excuse for not bringing him home is that he's a hazard to public safety.

-k

Well, he would need to be examined in order for an informed opinion/prognosis to be made. And that's where I propose we start. For we have to face the fact that he won't be held indefinitely in the US (the US could drop-him off at Pearson tomorrow if they wanted), so we might as well make proper preparations for his repatriation.

[ScottSA]

There are any number of methods that can be used that would see him immediately committed upon arrival. The most staight forward would be to have him evaluated at Gitmo and, if the assessment reveals that he represents an immediate danger to himself or the community by reason of mental illness, the Crown can secure an order that he be committed to a pshychiatric facility for treatment.

You contradict your own argument. Indoctrination or "brainwashing" is a disorder that can be corrected when the victim is removed and protected from his/her controller(s). It matters not whether the planted beliefs are religious or otherwise, it's simply a matter of preventing their reinforcement and enabling self-scrutiny. Breaking the mould is actually the easy part once the therapist earns the victim's trust, picking-up the pieces after the break-through is the more complicated process.

I think this is a case in point of what kimmy is saying...that you imagine he can be "diagnosed" by virtue of having an opinion that involves the death of the infidel. That's just silly. Removed from his handlers? Remember where he is? I'm fairly certain he's out of touch with his "handlers", don't you? What outrageous blindness you have that you think deepest religious someone's convictions are "mental illness."

[jdobbin]

I am hardly a "knuckle-dragger". I would want that kind of trash, like Khadr, taken out, not brought back into my living room.

And yet as a lawyer you seem to favour violating the constitution to try and execute people. When military judges and lawyers have to defend the constitution while New York lawyers call for the lynch mob, you gotta wonder.

[Visionseeker]

I think this is a case in point of what kimmy is saying...that you imagine he can be "diagnosed" by virtue of having an opinion that involves the death of the infidel. That's just silly. Removed from his handlers? Remember where he is? I'm fairly certain he's out of touch with his "handlers", don't you? What outrageous blindness you have that you think deepest religious someone's convictions are "mental illness."

Putting aside the notion of his prospects for rehabilitation, the US will eventually "move" on the file with or without the participation of Canadian authorities. Here's the scenario if the US goes it alone:

1- Khadr is removed from Gitmo and taken to Miami where he is taken into custody by Immigration Control and Enforcement (ICE);

2- ICE decides to a) release Khadr with conditions until his deportation proceedings (unlikely IMO) or b_) keep Khadr in detention until his immigration status is resolved (i.e. he is deported);

3- ICE investigates where Khadr has citizenship and determines that he holds no right of citizenship other than Canadian;

4- ICE secures a Deportation Order and accompanies Khadr on a flight from Miami to Toronto and drops him on the laps of Canadian immigration officials who have only the weakest and short-lived authority to detain him;

5- Within a week to a month Khadr is released, completely free to go wherever he wants and subject to no supervisory conditions whatsoever.

Now, wouldn't it be better to accept facts and prepare a plan for his eventual return?

Edited September 24, 2007 by Visionseeker

[jennie]

Absolutely.

[ScottSA]

Now, wouldn't it be better to accept facts and prepare a plan for his eventual return?

Sure. I'll call the good ol' boys.

[jbg]

There are any number of methods that can be used that would see him immediately committed upon arrival. The most staight forward would be to have him evaluated at Gitmo and, if the assessment reveals that he represents an immediate danger to himself or the community by reason of mental illness, the Crown can secure an order that he be committed to a pshychiatric facility for treatment.

The problem is that you are treating Islam as a mental illness. I doubt that's where you're planning on going.

[betsy]

Putting aside the notion of his prospects for rehabilitation, the US will eventually "move" on the file with or without the participation of Canadian authorities. Here's the scenario if the US goes it alone:

1- Khadr is removed from Gitmo and taken to Miami where he is taken into custody by Immigration Control and Enforcement (ICE);

2- ICE decides to a) release Khadr with conditions until his deportation proceedings (unlikely IMO) or b_) keep Khadr in detention until his immigration status is resolved (i.e. he is deported);

3- ICE investigates where Khadr has citizenship and determines that he holds no right of citizenship other than Canadian;

4- ICE secures a Deportation Order and accompanies Khadr on a flight from Miami to Toronto and drops him on the laps of Canadian immigration officials who have only the weakest and short-lived authority to detain him;

5- Within a week to a month Khadr is released, completely free to go wherever he wants and subject to no supervisory conditions whatsoever.

Now, wouldn't it be better to accept facts and prepare a plan for his eventual return?

I haven't really followed the current details of Khadr's situation, but from what I understand the US military would rather keep Khadr indefinitely? At least that was the assumption I've read several months back. They're saying in that scenario, we can all probably kiss bye-bye to Khadr.

if I'm not mistaken, right now we're just talking "IF" here?

Why do we have to make a special advance "preparation" for his eventual return - like as if he's some kind of a significant dignitary and not the big embarrassment that he is! Aren't we just giving a tad too much importance to this fellow?

[kimmy]

There are any number of methods that can be used that would see him immediately committed upon arrival. The most staight forward would be to have him evaluated at Gitmo and, if the assessment reveals that he represents an immediate danger to himself or the community by reason of mental illness, the Crown can secure an order that he be committed to a pshychiatric facility for treatment.

The legal definition of mental illness, and who can be committed and forced to receive treatment, is rather restrictive. I don't know the specifics, but I am quite sure that having the wrong believe system is not something we can simply lock someone up for, no matter how expedient it might be. Such a proposition would be a far more frightening civil rights issue than Khadr's continuing detention.

You contradict your own argument. Indoctrination or "brainwashing" is a disorder that can be corrected when the victim is removed and protected from his/her controller(s). It matters not whether the planted beliefs are religious or otherwise, it's simply a matter of preventing their reinforcement and enabling self-scrutiny. Breaking the mould is actually the easy part once the therapist earns the victim's trust, picking-up the pieces after the break-through is the more complicated process.

As I just mentioned, whether Khadr could be deprogrammed and reprogrammed is not an issue (I am sure that he could be turned into "Carlton" from the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air with sufficient psychological conditioning). Just that we don't actually have any legal means of doing so. I don't see how we could force Omar to be "deprogrammed" any more than we could grab his sister off the street and deprogram her either.

Well, he would need to be examined in order for an informed opinion/prognosis to be made. And that's where I propose we start. For we have to face the fact that he won't be held indefinitely in the US (the US could drop-him off at Pearson tomorrow if they wanted), so we might as well make proper preparations for his repatriation.

Sure. I'm just in no hurry to see the little weasel back here until a means of actually dealing with him has been determined.

Now, wouldn't it be better to accept facts and prepare a plan for his eventual return?

Well, at least you agree that just letting him back into Canada as a free man isn't a very appealing option; something Jennie apparently doesn't agree with.

-k

[kimmy]

Just because this board is populated by a majority of knuckledraggers doesn't mean most Canadians agree with your point of view

You know, maybe you're right. Maybe most Canadians actually do want Khadr back home. Maybe Dion should force an election and make this his campaign issue. I really hope he does, in fact.

-k

[old_bold&cold]

The USA will hold Khadr for what ever time it takes to make sure the conflict that he was warring in is finished and settled( probably his whole life). If he is released it will be to be returned to the place where he was taken into custody. That will be Afghanistan. Since he is now a man and can if he wanted to educate himself while at Gitmo, but he does not then we have to see him for what he really is, and that is a weapon of terrorism.

To try to institutionalize such a person and think you can remove these belief's as if they were a brain washed ideal, is not only wrong, but is an insult to all those who follow Islam. He would not last long if brought into Canada, and would only end up spending the rest of his life in prison, mostly because he will break our laws by spouting his beliefs, and make terroristic threats, because that is all he knows how to do. His type would not last long in our prison system, and he would be found dead in a relatively short time. It would be much better for him to just expire where he is now. That might happen yet. What we all forget is one thing that may well take all this out of anybodies hands, is the fact that Khadr may well not ask to be returned to Canada, but be returned to say Iran or Iraq, or any of the many arabic countries that may well allow him in. If he were to come back to Canada, he would not be free to roam about, and that would not be his first choice now would it. All Canada would have to do is sign off on his coming here and then the USA would have to send him to where he would like to be. Those who would be so foolish as to think he would even want to come back to Canada, are not looking at what the man himself would want. Coming back here would just be exchanging prisons for him. In Arab sympathizing countries he would walk free.

[M.Dancer]

The US military court found that he was NOT an unlawful combatant.

I find a lot of imaginative making up of 'facts' and fearmongering on this page, but not a lot of insight into the real issues.

A lot of ill will, but not a lot of humanity.

A lot of ignorant and inflammatory speculation but absolutely no knowledge of the psychological issues involved.

I would suggest that those of you whose knee jerk response is to recommend execution would be happier living in a more totalitarian country. You obviously do not have even an inkling of what democracy and freedom and humanity are about.

-fini-

He was held as an unlawful combattant. And yes the court ruled he could not be tried as one because of a procedual error.

I find you make up facts a lot......

But here's one I'm sure you will like. Try hium for murder, if he is convicted he can be condemned to death. Or if he is a POW, hold him till the war on terror is over.

[jennie]

He was held as an unlawful combattant. And yes the court ruled he could not be tried as one because of a procedual error.

I find you make up facts a lot......

But here's one I'm sure you will like. Try hium for murder, if he is convicted he can be condemned to death. Or if he is a POW, hold him till the war on terror is over.

A procedural error? Explain please.