Caledonia

[Riverwind]

Six Nations Confederacy operates under its own laws. One of their laws is that they must not engage in the legal or political systems of other nations. They are forced into our courts at times, but they have their own ways of implementing their own laws and they do not use our courts for that.

A non-argument. The lands in question fall under juristition of the Canadian courts therefore going to Canadian courts is the *only* legal avenue. Anything else is illegal.

They do not threaten violence. They simply shut the site down to enforce their laws on their territory.

ROTFL. Do you really believe what you said? Enforcing the law means threatening violance if you do not comply. That is the nature of laws. Six Nations is *not* the legal authority entitled enforce laws on the terroritory in question today.

Six Nations is like China who claims sovereignty over Taiwan. Everyone knows the claim is a joke but China keeps threating violance unless other countries pretend that China has sovereignty over Taiwan. Six Nations sending thugs to enforce its 'laws' in disputed lands is the same as the Chinese government sending 'police' into Taiwan to enforce the laws of China.

The easy legal way for our governments to deal with this is to consult with them about use of land in dispute. The province is legally supposed to. Where are they?

Go to court and get an injuction. Anything else is illegal.

[Riverwind]

Again as a lawyer, I would again state your comments are legally correct as usual.

So where are the SCC rules that support this claim that any aboriginal group is sovereign entity (as opposed to a group entitled to some degree of self-government). All the rulings that I have read make it very clear that the Canadian government is sovereign and aboriginal groups only have rights.

The ISAAC ET AL. v. DAVEY ET AL. case ruled quite explicitly on Six Nations:

For the reasons I have indicated, I feel that I must follow the decision of King, J., so far as his conclusion that the Six Nations Band was not a sovereign people is concerned. The members of the band are subjects of the Crown and bound by the laws of Canada, in the broadest sense.

http://library2.usask.ca/native/cnlc/vol09/099.html

This case was appealed to SCC but the appeal was rejected.

The Delgamuuth decision is heralded as a watershed for aboriginal rights yet it clearly stated that the Crown has sovereignty but aboriginal groups have 'aboriginal title' in certain cases.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Riverwind

[AngusThermopyle]

Its always interesting read the words of a person quick to judge others as delusional.

Of course you are an expert on delusions?

Does it suprise me you belittle people you do not understand? No. I am not delusional. Er at least in regards to that last point.

So you would say that you actually believe this Red X character was beheaded at 8 years old and then got better? You believe he rides around on a silver eagle and communicates telepathically with contacts through out the Universe? I guess you also believe it when he states that there is a plan afoot to convert all humans in the world into a "Matrix" like robotic collective?

Thats just some of the none-sense you can read there. If you do believe this then send me some of what you're smoking, its got'ta be better than anything I've ever heard of before.

[Topaz]

My opinion is that ALL people on both side to CHILL !! The Fed and provincial gov't should take control but Both governments are entering into an election and the Minister of the First Nation is new, so things are going to take alot of time before anything can or will be done! Patience is needed on boths sides and beating each other up won't help anyone!! If both sides keep out of each way, then, no one will get hurt and violence will only heatup the problem and someone or alot people could get killed before the government can straighten this out. My question to this town is, will they accept the fact the 6 Nation has legal right over the land and will the 6 Nation, accept, if they don't????

[jennie]

A non-argument. The lands in question fall under juristition of the Canadian courts therefore going to Canadian courts is the *only* legal avenue. Anything else is illegal.

ROTFL. Do you really believe what you said? Enforcing the law means threatening violance if you do not comply. That is the nature of laws. Six Nations is *not* the legal authority entitled enforce laws on the terroritory in question today.

Six Nations is like China who claims sovereignty over Taiwan. Everyone knows the claim is a joke but China keeps threating violance unless other countries pretend that China has sovereignty over Taiwan. Six Nations sending thugs to enforce its 'laws' in disputed lands is the same as the Chinese government sending 'police' into Taiwan to enforce the laws of China.

Go to court and get an injuction. Anything else is illegal.

The Six Nations Confederacy has asserted its jurisdiction in the Haldimand Tract.

They are implementing their laws in their territory.

The province has a legal right, even a responsibility, to involve itself in consultations about land in dispute. For its own reasons, the province has remained out of the picture allowing Six Nations to follow through on its own sovereignty initiatives. This is because the Crown knows that Six Nations is a sovereign nation that never surrendered. As such, they have a right to defend their territory, with arms if necessary, though that is not their choice.

They do not threaten violence. They simply do not allow anyone on the site. No violence is necessary, unless someone attacks them.

Your example is a bit distorted: It is Canada trying to assert sovereignty over Six Nations that is like China and Taiwan. Everybody knows it isn't true, but Canada pretends it has sovereignty over sovereign nations that existed long before Canada did.

Edited September 17, 2007 by jennie

[noahbody]

So you would say that you actually believe this Red X character was beheaded at 8 years old and then got better? You believe he rides around on a silver eagle and communicates telepathically with contacts through out the Universe? I guess you also believe it when he states that there is a plan afoot to convert all humans in the world into a "Matrix" like robotic collective?

Thats just some of the none-sense you can read there. If you do believe this then send me some of what you're smoking, its got'ta be better than anything I've ever heard of before.

Here's how she came to the defence of David Akenakew:

Akenakew is reported to have said, among other things, “I don’t support Hitler. But he cleaned up a hell of a lot of things didn’t he?” He also said Hitler was right to `fry’ millions of people. It’s the kind of sloppy talk that happens in personal conversations when we are tired and upset.

...

Ahenakew did not commit genocide. He expressed a personal opinion on past historic events. He did not advocate the killing of any Jews, nor the institution of conditions calculated to bring about the physical destruction of the Jewish people. He did not focus on Jews as a religious group, but on that small number of individuals who have become financial and media barons. His comments were purely an emotional reaction about something that took place in the past.

http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/news/hitler.html

How does "fry millions of people" become "a small number of individuals"?

[Riverwind]

Your example is a bit distorted: It is Canada trying to assert sovereignty over Six Nations that is like China and Taiwan. Everybody knows it isn't true, but Canada pretends it has sovereignty over sovereign nations that existed long before Canada did.

You and your Six Nations buddies can invent any fantasy that you want, however, that does not make it true.

[jennie]

You and your Six Nations buddies can invent any fantasy that you want, however, that does not make it true.

Six Nations Confederacy has asserted jurisdiction over land use in the Haldimand Tract.

That is the truth.

All developments must be approved by the Haudenosaunee Development Authority. Development fees apply.

[Riverwind]

Six Nations Confederacy has asserted jurisdiction over land use in the Haldimand Tract.

Translation: Six Nations has choosen to illegally use violance to threaten legimate title holders on disputed land. Why is that any different from someone telling a shop keeper that they have to pay 'insurance' to in case something happened to their nice shop? Edited September 17, 2007 by Riverwind

[noahbody]

Here's some more Kahentinetha Horn. Rue, do you think she might be delusional yet?

Prime Minister Stephen Harper is introducing the three strikes you're out and you're-going-to-jail-for-the-rest-of-your-life legislation aimed at increasing the prison population. He says he wants to protect the Canadian way of life. Isn't the Canadian way of life to be fair? Or is this a take on the old genocidal proclamations allowing British subjects in Nova Scotia to kill all Indian men, women, children and even babies? Let's not forget that the first prisons were built in Prince Albert right after they hung Louis Riel for defending democracy. As far as we're concerned it's the same, old same old.

http://www.indianz.com/board/post.asp?meth...&FORUM_ID=5

[Caledonia]

Six Nations Confederacy has asserted jurisdiction over land use in the Haldimand Tract.

That is the truth.

All developments must be approved by the Haudenosaunee Development Authority. Development fees apply.

Because you say so jennie?

HDI was only formed after they did the shakedown of Mayberry homes. Again PR works wonders too bad nobody buys it anymore & the tides are turning & true colours are showing through.

I think the fencesitters have now realized the fence had no posts.

[jennie]

Translation: Six Nations has choosen to illegally use violance threaten legimate title holders on disputed land.

Proper translation: The Province of Ontario has left the developers hanging out to dry without clear title to the land, and without guarantee of title.

The Province knows there is nothing it can do: The provincial registry contains no document of transfer of land from Six Nations to the Crown. NONE ... anywhere in the Haldimand Tract. The developers know their titles are not clear. They are willingly doing business with the Confederacy, except a couple of local shoestring operations who are a bit belligerent. That is to be expected.

[Caledonia]

Proper translation: The Province of Ontario has left the developers hanging out to dry without clear title to the land, and without guarantee of title.

The Province knows there is nothing it can do: The provincial registry contains no document of transfer of land from Six Nations to the Crown. NONE ... anywhere in the Haldimand Tract. The developers know their titles are not clear. They are willingly doing business with the Confederacy, except a couple of local shoestring operations who are a bit belligerent. That is to be expected.

2007 translation = EXTORTION

[jennie]

2007 translation = EXTORTION

If it is illegal, why isn't the province doing something about it?

The Confederacy is operating with legal advice. The agreements made with developers are made by their lawyer.

It is not illegal ... the Crown never did have legal title to the Haldimand Tract and still doesn't.

Our governments just don't want to tell us the truth.

[Riverwind]

If it is illegal, why isn't the province doing something about it?

Because dead indians are bad press for politicians. Those are the unfortunate political realities in Canada today. You should never interpret the lack of action on the part of the government as a sign that the legal claims are valid.

[Charles Anthony]

Permit me to interject with a point of order:

There has been indirect accusation that a particular member is a re-registrant of a previously banned member. If and when you encounter such a rule violation, you are to send a Report to the moderation team and explain what you observe. Please avoid accusing other members directly in the threads of violating rules because it can inflame the discussions.

[Caledonia]

If it is illegal, why isn't the province doing something about it?

The Confederacy is operating with legal advice. The agreements made with developers are made by their lawyer.

It is not illegal ... the Crown never did have legal title to the Haldimand Tract and still doesn't.

Our governments just don't want to tell us the truth.

Our gov't has always stated that the Douglas Creek Estate Subdivision is a legal surrender. Have not stated anything but that.

There is a way of dealing with this which is the court system. Which this claim was pulled from by the SN. Obviously at this point if that is what the gov'ts intentions are why have they not stated it? Are they waiting for Christmas to present as a present?

If anyone is interested in talking to the residents of Caledonia & listening to some back ground & getting some information on the statues of these claims I would suggest that you take a look at http://chick66.proboards105.com not taking away from this forum but would love to have others from out of the area comment of help us to understand what can be done or what has worked around Canada & Ontario with regards to holding people accountable to a situation such as this.

Edited September 18, 2007 by Caledonia

[Caledonia]

Letter: Cowering on Caledonia

The ongoing illegal actions of native protesters in Caledonia, Ont., has been the focus of many stories and columns in the Post. And in Monday's issue, it was again the subject of a scathing editorial, titled The Scandal of Caledonia. Readers we've heard from have generally applauded that editorial, though few have employed as colourful language as the letter-writer below.

--Paul Russell, NP letters editor

This was a phenomenal and timely editorial. The first-and-last issue in (any) Ontario election can be only the maintenance of "the basic rule of law" for one-and-all alike.

Mr. McGuinty's Liberal government -- smarmy, politically-correct, pusillanimous, cowering, buckpassing, sanctimonious, immensely well remunerated financially -- was sworn to uphold the Law in Ontario:. They have since rendered increasing chunks of Ontario ungoverned and ungovernable, in increasing numbers of places where law-and-order are remote memories.

Ontario is a law-and-order province. Yet, Ontarian private property is held-hostage increasingly by fully-armed thugs illegally "sitting in" or occupying that which legally is not theirs and property developers are being harrassed. The Attorney-General has seen fit continuously to gut lawful orders from Cayuga court-house that started being issued in 2006. Last year the issuing judge wondered aloud, 'Why is no one obeying these (lawful court orders)?' And where Mr. Bryant can't undermine lawful court-orders, he -- along with the Premier, Mr. McGuinty - blame Ottawa for anything untoward and everything bad that occurs.

Lawlessness on this scale -- with over forty O.P.P. law enforcement officers injured by thuggish, masked, gun-totting, rock-throwing malefactors in-and-around Caledonia, with law-abiding citizens being beaten and harrassed while the provincial police can do and do do nothing -- has never been witnessed in Ontario before. For all the little honest good that Mr. Dalton McGuinty's government has done in the Province of Ontario during its term, it is time the political winds of change sweep them away, out of office, like the leaves that drape Queen's Park, before "the winds" of lawlessness cull more innocent victims amongst us, the law-abiding and peaceable in Ontario.

Dr. Robin Bredin, Toronto.

http://tinyurl.com/ywdog8

[Posit]

Of course, you would never let some guy from Toronto speak for you Caledonians, now would you?

[AngusThermopyle]

Of course, you would never let some guy from Toronto speak for you Caledonians, now would you?

This is a little confusing as it has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed. It seems instead to be rather snide and juvenile.

[Posit]

This is a little confusing as it has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed. It seems instead to be rather snide and juvenile.

Dr. Robin Bredin, Toronto. The author of the article, "Cowering on Caledonia".

Just another outsider trying to inject his venom into the Caledonia fray.

[jbg]

Your example is a bit distorted: It is Canada trying to assert sovereignty over Six Nations that is like China and Taiwan. Everybody knows it isn't true, but Canada pretends it has sovereignty over sovereign nations that existed long before Canada did.

And thus the question of mine you ducked is a valid question. You are asserting that the movement of peoples' should be reversed. That would turn the Great Rift Valley into a pretty crowded place.

[AngusThermopyle]

Just another outsider trying to inject his venom into the Caledonia fray.

So what would you call all these so called "Mohawk Warriors" who come trotting across the border every time they think they can stir the pot?

[jennie]

Because you say so jennie?

HDI was only formed after they did the shakedown of Mayberry homes. Again PR works wonders too bad nobody buys it anymore & the tides are turning & true colours are showing through.

I think the fencesitters have now realized the fence had no posts.

The review processes now used by HDA have been developed over the course of this year. The Haudenosaunee Development Authority was only recently named and announced, but the work behind it has been in progress for many months.

[AngusThermopyle]

The Haudenosaunee Development Authority was only recently named

Did you know that the Mafia used various names and phrases to refer to their "buisness" practices. Naming an illegitimate organization does not automatically confer legitimacy on such an organization.

As far as I understand it, this area is still in dispute with no firm decision having been arrived at yet. If this is the case then how can this organization legitimately levy the collection of funds from Developers? Without sanction and legitimacy the resulting actions would appear to fall squarely under the title of extortion.

Just because these people say it is theirs does not automatically make it so.

Now for Posit.

If the Dr. from Toronto is merely a rabble rouser as you imply, even though I presume he is an actual Canadian citizen. What does that make these so called "Mohawk Warriors" who come up from New York?