Caledonia

[Ontario Voter]

[deleted

Edited October 7, 2007 by Ontario Voter

[mikedavid00]

It is not up to police to make decisions about land disputes.

True. But they are not disputing land. They are breaking laws. They are disrupting the peace, vandalizing, and trespassing.

They should all be arrested immediately and stiff sentences.

If I feel I got charged on my credit card wrong, I HAVE TO PAY THE BILL *UNTIL* I CAN PROVE THEY WERE IN THE WRONG. If I don't, then *I* get put into collections and I get penalized.

Same thing. The builder got permits rightfully from the gov't, he has the deeds, he can do as he chooses UNTIL proven otherwise which the natives are free to do.

ANYTHING ELSE IS BREAKING THE LAW.

They are terrorists, plain and simple and need to be locked away with the key thrown out.

Second world country.

[geoffrey]

Why were the Six Nations providing security on this building site?

It seems, to me, that it was security in the form of "if you pay us, we won't kick your ass for entering your house" type of security.

The bigger problem here is that we have a police force and gov't that is not enforcing law. Why? Because they are cowards. They are afriad becuase they know the natives will take arms and fight back as in Oka.

Not at all. Individual officers generally are quite eager to enforce the law. That's what they signed up to do. I have little doubt the O.P.P officers present had to really hold in their anger not to rush in and shoot the Indians that were trying to kill the developer. But it would have cost them their job.

After all, one dead Indian is much worse than a few dozen dead white guys and trampled property rights. How many more white guys will have to be beaten one blow from death before the government and police brass change their policy of "non-confrontation." It seems like the Six Nations have already changed theirs. Time for the gloves to come off, and let our officers do what they are most certainly wanting to do.

You call Canada a great country. How can you when your healthcare system leaves you to die and your own police and gov't is not there to enforce our laws. I say that this county stinks of second world. Thse things don't happen in true 1st world countries.

The situation in this area is clearly third world. The government is protecting a specific racial group that is harassing and extorting another. It's unheard of in the Western world. It's truly sickening. Ask your politicans to step up... mostly get rid of McGuinty. Harris would have rectified the situation in a hurry. These things only started escalating when the government decided to step back.

Someone is goign to have to take up arms and protect our citizens and country. At this point wer are being taken advatage of and I don't like it.

I don't either. Out here, it would have already happened. It will eventually, probably sooner than later, come to having a developer or another innocent civilian having to shoot one of these thugs dead to protect their family. Either that or the Six Nation's extortion thugs will finally kill someone in with their vandalism or in cold blooded murder like we witnessed in this particular case.

They were beating an unconcious man in the head with 2x4s... case law and common sense is looking at an attempted murder conviction giving them all life in prision (maybe not for a minor). I am so shocked at how far people will go to get a little money. Sickening.

[Caledonia]

I would hope that the charge would be attempted murder but as of yet the OPP will release no information on what charges will be laid.

Excellent PR work done by the Occupiers & the Confed. again.

All I can say is this blows & people shouldn't have to live this way.

[jbg]

Absolutely. The provincial 'Crown' has abdicated its legal "Duty to Consult'. However, I don't think Six Nations or the developers are generally complaining about that. In a case like this, though, you'd think they'd be there.

Jennie, on this subject, hate to bother you, but there's a question on the FN issue I need an answer to (link). Please address this.

[noahbody]

Here is the other version.

The women Elders are speaking now.

The woman elder, as you know, is Kahentinetha Horn. She's clearly delusional. Here's another one of her stories:

MNN. June 12, 2006. Flash! ATF agents, US Border Control vehicle, eye in the sky, encircling and victimizing the Indigenous people. It suddenly occurs to us that US President George Bush might be testing his killing machine in Canada before he does it on his own people. He wants to make sure his network of spies, deportations and killings work out somewhere else first. We Indigenous people are the only ones publicly standing up to this. Everyone else has been scared into silence. It looks like he’s got the cooperation of his puppet, Canadian Prime Minister, Stephen Harper. People like us are dangerous to anyone with these kinds of designs. It might be too late for Canada. Bush’s plan seems to already be in motion.

http://canadiandimension.com/articles/2006/06/13/515/

[Caledonia]

K. Horn is somewhat of a cult godess to the Occupiers Janie Jamieson's press releases are no better.

Last week Jamieson was quoted as saying the following:

Natives warn OPP of local 'repercussions' TheSpec.com - Local - Natives warn OPP of local 'repercussions'

Paul Legall

The Hamilton Spectator

CALEDONIA (Sep 7, 2007)

Native activist Janie Jamieson warned about possible local "repercussions" if the OPP tries to expel native protesters from a proposed uranium mine site in eastern Ontario.

In an e-mail this week, Jamieson told Prime Minister Stephen Harper there'd be "repercussions at Six Nations" if the 70-day native occupation at Sharbot Lake near Kingston ends in "bloodshed."

She didn't say what form the repercussions would take.

"It wasn't meant as a threat to make people afraid. It's a fact," Jamieson stated yesterday during a ceremony at the former Douglas Creek Estates honouring native activist Dudley George.

http://www.thespec.com/printArticle/245141

Edited September 17, 2007 by Caledonia

[jbg]

The woman elder, as you know, is Kahentinetha Horn. She's clearly delusional. Here's another one of her stories:

Why, sounds like something Carolyn Parrish would say.

[AngusThermopyle]

I went to the Mohawk News site and read some of her stuff. This woman is definitely not walking around on the same planet as the rest of us. I thought I was reading some very poorly written fantasy. She's got a lot of none-sense about telepathic messages and indestructible Shamans.

Do they actually believe this delusional garbage?

[geoffrey]

Do they actually believe this delusional garbage?

They expect our Courts to believe it. That's the foundation of their land claims.

[kimmy]

Here is the other version.

The women Elders are speaking now.

Hilarious, Jennie. This new MNN "article" differs rather dramatically from claims that you yourself had made earlier.

With respect, Joe Gaultieri was not at the site and his iinitial reactions were based on whatever information he had at the time. In fact, no police officers were in a position to see the altercation.

Joe Gualtieri watched as his partner in crime Sam took a beating.

So... Joe wasn't even at the site... but he watched Sam getting beaten?

Or how about

The youths doing security on the site apparently saw someone approach one of the houses at the far side of the site.

Apparently two Indigenous youth had entered the "empty" building and surprised the non-natives who were inside.

hmm. Add those two inconsistencies to the believability of a couple of teenagers beating up 5 armed men, and this just doesn't sound very believable, does it.

-k

[jbg]

They expect our Courts to believe it. That's the foundation of their land claims.

And the Courts may be too "politically correct" to see through the psychotic nature of it.

[jbg]

So... Joe wasn't even at the site... but he watched Sam getting beaten?Or how about

hmm. Add those two inconsistencies to the believability of a couple of teenagers beating up 5 armed men, and this just doesn't sound very believable, does it.

-k

The facts have to fit the needs of the newsfeed.

[jennie]

Six Nations does not have title until proves its case in a court of law. Until then any attempt to interfer with the legimate title holders is extortion.

And what of the developers in the meantime?

They KNOW their titles are not clear because they checked.

They won't go ahead without approval of Six Nations Confederacy.

How long should the Confederacy make them wait? Until the government resolves the land claims?

No ... the developers and the Confederacy are not putting business on hold waiting for the government.

Extortion is a strong word ... a libellous word. It is a word the government would NOT use about this situation, because the Confederacy is doing the government a favour.

The Confederacy is saving the province a lot of time and expense by implementing this strategy without provincial consultation.

That is taxpayer money that is being saved, btw.

[jennie]

Hilarious, Jennie. This new MNN "article" differs rather dramatically from claims that you yourself had made earlier.

So... Joe wasn't even at the site... but he watched Sam getting beaten?

Or how about

hmm. Add those two inconsistencies to the believability of a couple of teenagers beating up 5 armed men, and this just doesn't sound very believable, does it.

-k

I am confused about that too, but Joe has never spoken as if he was present, only as if he was reporting what someone told him. That part is not clear. If he was there, why did he not intervene? The nephews had apparently run outside to get two by fours. The facts are all still hazy.

What is clarified in this account, which is information given to Kahentinetha by Elders who were there, is that there is a question of who attacked who first.

I would not be second guessing the results of the police investigation at this point. Sam Gualtieri is only now well enough to tell his story, and there is a suggestion today that there is another witness who has come forward.

Edited September 17, 2007 by jennie

[Riverwind]

How long should the Confederacy make them wait? Until the government resolves the land claims?

There is something called an 'injuction' that courts use to deal with this kind of situation. If the Six Nations claims have merit it can go to court and issue an injunction preventing further development on the disputed lands. What Six Nations is doing now *is* extortion.

[ScottSA]

I can certainly see how getting jobs and becoming productive citizens could get in the way of "standing up for rights." Why, imagine the difficulty in trying to beat people up people if you're...well...working somewhere else. Good thing we feed the hand that bites us.

If they want to create "repercussions," they should have the opportunity. If they want war, they should have war.

[noahbody]

I am confused about that too, but Joe has never spoken as if he was present, only as if he was reporting what someone told him. That part is not clear. If he was there, why did he not intervene? The nephews had apparently run outside to get two by fours. The facts are all still hazy.

What is clarified in this account, which is information given to Kahentinetha by Elders who were there, is that there is a question of who attacked who first.

If you consider this a trusted source of news, I can understand why you are confused. But this isn't journalism, it's propaganda. You mention it is based on "information given to Kahentinethat by Elders who were there." The thing is no elders witnessed the attack. Do you honestly believe there is any truth to this account?

And then Kahentinetha says this about 'bad press':

His apology for an act of self-defense by the Indigenous boys shows how even our own members can be ensnared by bad press that always presumes that we are guilty before being proven innocent. Even we can get sucked in by the mythology that blames us for all violence.

[Ontario Voter]

deleted

Edited October 7, 2007 by Ontario Voter

[AngusThermopyle]

What is clarified in this account, which is information given to Kahentinetha by Elders who were there, is that there is a question of who attacked who first.

This statement alone is enough to discount any hint of validity from what is being said by Natives regarding this situation.

If you read any of the other articles scripted by this clown you'll see that they're straight out of cloud cuckoo land. The writer goes on about telepathic messages and the Shaman being beheaded in residential school, but then getting better. It sounds like a poorly scripted Monty Python episode, just without the talent or the humour.

Jennie, do you seriously expect anyone to lend any credence to anything you have to say when your sources of information include raving loonies like this guy?

[Posit]

There is something called an 'injuction' that courts use to deal with this kind of situation. If the Six Nations claims have merit it can go to court and issue an injunction preventing further development on the disputed lands. What Six Nations is doing now *is* extortion.

An injunction has no effect on Natives, since they are a Federal responsibility under the Indian Act. As well the use of the injunction in the past has been an excuse to beat up the natives and it is unlikely that any provincial party would like something like that to come back and bite them in the ass....especially since this is election time.

And not this is NOT extortion - not even close. It is Six Nations assert its sovereign right. In order for anyone to object they will have to prove that Six Nations is not sovereign - something our government has been unable to do so far. Being outside of provincial jurisdiction as well, gives them plenty of legal authority to add costs and charges over and above the province.

Speaking of propaganda there is certainly a strong smell of manure brought in from a "wind" out of nowhere.

[Rue]

I went to the Mohawk News site and read some of her stuff. This woman is definitely not walking around on the same planet as the rest of us. I thought I was reading some very poorly written fantasy. She's got a lot of none-sense about telepathic messages and indestructible Shamans.

Do they actually believe this delusional garbage?

Its always interesting read the words of a person quick to judge others as delusional.

Of course you are an expert on delusions?

Does it suprise me you belittle people you do not understand? No. I am not delusional. Er at least in regards to that last point.

[Riverwind]

An injunction has no effect on Natives, since they are a Federal responsibility under the Indian Act.

If Six Nations has a problem with development on land they claim then they should go to the court, present their evidence and ask for an injunction.

And not this is NOT extortion - not even close.

Six Nations is threatening legitimate title holders with violence if they do not do as Six Nations asks. That is extortion by any one's definition. There are legal avenues available to Six Nations that they have chosen not to follow. That makes them the criminals.

order for anyone to object they will have to prove that Six Nations is not sovereign - something our government has been unable to do so far.

Canadian sovereignty over all of the lands in question is an indisputable fact that has been upheld by court rulings over and over again. The only question is whether the Six Nations have rights to certain lands that fall under Canadian jurisdiction. Edited September 17, 2007 by Riverwind

[Rue]

An injunction has no effect on Natives, since they are a Federal responsibility under the Indian Act. As well the use of the injunction in the past has been an excuse to beat up the natives and it is unlikely that any provincial party would like something like that to come back and bite them in the ass....especially since this is election time.

And not this is NOT extortion - not even close. It is Six Nations assert its sovereign right. In order for anyone to object they will have to prove that Six Nations is not sovereign - something our government has been unable to do so far. Being outside of provincial jurisdiction as well, gives them plenty of legal authority to add costs and charges over and above the province.

Speaking of propaganda there is certainly a strong smell of manure brought in from a "wind" out of nowhere.

Again as a lawyer, I would again state your comments are legally correct as usual.

I find it unfortunate this debate always ends up with personal attacks against aborignal peoples' culture and spiritual values and does not limit itself to a discussion on the law.

As for you Jennie, and those references to your past identities, I can only imagine how many shapes you can take! I hope one day I can get to your level. For now though I am having a good laugh as I learn to make less noise when I run. I have flat feet. ever seen a wolf with flat feet! Hah. I want to be a wolf. Right now I am more like a duck.

[jennie]

If Six Nations has a problem with development on land they claim then they should go to the court, present their evidence and ask for an injunction.

Six Nations is threatening legitimate title holders with violence if they do not do as Six Nations asks. That is extortion by any one's definition. There are legal avenues available to Six Nations that they have chosen not to follow. That makes them the criminals.

Canadian sovereignty over all of the lands in question is an indisputable fact that has been upheld by court rulings over and over again. The only question is whether the Six Nations have rights to certain lands that fall under Canadian jurisdiction.

Six Nations Confederacy operates under its own laws. One of their laws is that they must not engage in the legal or political systems of other nations. They are forced into our courts at times, but they have their own ways of implementing their own laws and they do not use our courts for that.

They do not threaten violence. They simply shut the site down to enforce their laws on their territory.

They are often threatened with violence though.

The easy legal way for our governments to deal with this is to consult with them about use of land in dispute. The province is legally supposed to. Where are they?

Edited September 17, 2007 by jennie