John Tory Commits Political Suicide

[M.Dancer]

“They teach evolution in the Ontario curriculum, but they also could teach the fact to the children that there are other theories that people have out there that are part of some Christian beliefs,” Mr. Tory said at the Kamin Education Centre.

But Education Minister Kathleen Wynne – who is running against Mr. Tory for her Toronto seat – said teaching creationism alongside evolution would be a violation of the curriculum.

She said Catholic schools are allowed to explore creationism but only in religion – not science – classes.

Ms. Wynne says Mr. Tory's comments show that he has not really thought out his policy and is just distracting from the real need to invest more in the existing public-education system.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

Despite my support for the Separate School System, Tory is the wrong person to champion the cause. I know many believers in and out of the school system but I don't know any who actually believe the literal version of creation.

Suggesting that it could be taught alongside the scientific theories is plainly anti-intellectual poop.

Maybe Tory is trying to court the evangelical vote....but being in violation of the curriculum isn';t the way, especially if one of the selling points of broadening the separate system is to reassure the public that the curriculum will be adhered to.

[Higgly]

Dancer I can't believe that you and I are on the same side of an issue. Sounds like Tory has been spending too much time at Benny Hinn concerts. Oops. Services...

Earth to John Tory....

[Evan]

"“They teach evolution in the Ontario curriculum, but they also could teach the fact to the children that there are other theories that people have out there that are part of some Christian beliefs,”"

He is not encouraging the teaching of "Creation is real", but educating people on religion from an objective point of view. "Some people believe...." I think it is important to teach children the foundations of ALL religions. So as long as it's not one, but introduction to the wide variety of views out there helping people understand each other's cultures, I don't see the problem. After all, I remember reading about aboriginal stories in school about eagles and whales.... we also teach about greek mythology. These are what some people believe or have believed in the past. So again, the question comes as to why the public schools can't teach it regarding ALL religions.

Heck, if you really want to get into it, science itself is a belief, even the Darwinian theory of evolution is up for debate within the scientific community, but we're teaching it. The scientific community believes ___________. It has been proven wrong in the past.

And who on this forum can tell me what the Buddhist theory is on where we all came from? And if you can't, then would you agree that you are ignorant and uneducated on the issues of world religions (As I admit I am myself)? They are a part of our world. These same religions can be picked up in Universities, so why can they not be taught in public schools, do you believe that kids are not intelligent enough to decide for themselves? I know my daughter will look at me and tell me something sounds foolish.

Edited September 5, 2007 by Evan

[M.Dancer]

"“They teach evolution in the Ontario curriculum, but they also could teach the fact to the children that there are other theories that people have out there that are part of some Christian beliefs,”"

Heck, if you really want to get into it, science itself is a belief. The scientific community believes ___________. It has been proven wrong in the past.

That is nonsense. Creationism isn't a scientfic theory. Science maybe a belief, but it is a belief that requires demonstrable or observable proof. Creationism doesn't.

Creationism has no place in the science class, and very little place even in the religion class.

[M.Dancer]

And who on this forum can tell me what the Buddhist theory is on where we all came from? And if you can't, then would you agree that you are ignorant and uneducated on the issues of religion (As I admit I am myself)? They are a part of our world.

I can. Buddhists don't have a creation myth.

[Evan]

As I was in school, we studied the foundations of a myth. What makes a myth, what makes it a good myth which will catch people's attentions and last decades. In that, we compared it to Greek mythology and even the resurrection of Christ. Was that wrong? I mean, these beliefs exist, do we just tell the public school system to ignore them and pretend they aren't out there, or do we actually address them in proper context?

As for what the Buddhists DON'T believe. That's great, but was not the question. What DO they believe? What does the Koran say on the issue? Or what's the Hindu stance? You probably live beside and face people of these faiths on a daily basis. What do you really know about the social structure from which they came, as most social structures including that of the Western Cultures are defined and founded with roots deep into their religions.

And of course, one must remember, that science once told us that the sun revolved around the earth. Based on hundreds of years of study and observation. Does that mean it was accurate? It meant that science as always was developed on our 'current understanding' and tools of study. And might I also add that we are still taught that people believed that was the structure of the solar system, even though it has been proven wrong.

Edited September 5, 2007 by Evan

[Higgly]

As I was in school, we studied the foundations of a myth. What makes a myth, what makes it a good myth which will catch people's attentions and last decades.

Or millenia. I like the way you think.

<<edit>>At least I think I do. Are you saying Creationism is a myth? I cetainly agree with oyu there.<<edit>>

Edited September 5, 2007 by Higgly

[noahbody]

Since the comment was made at a Hebrew school where half of their curriculum is religion, I assume the comment was regarding teaching tolerance. It doesn't appear like he was suggesting adding Creationism to the Ontario curriculum. That would be suicide.

[Higgly]

Right. So he'll say anything for votes and doesn't realize that once an election has been called everything he says becomes an issue.

Ontario is too important to be run by a guy who believes in leprechauns.

[jennie]

“They teach evolution in the Ontario curriculum, but they also could teach the fact to the children that there are other theories that people have out there that are part of some Christian beliefs,” Mr. Tory said at the Kamin Education Centre.

QUOTE

But Education Minister Kathleen Wynne – who is running against Mr. Tory for her Toronto seat – said teaching creationism alongside evolution would be a violation of the curriculum.

She said Catholic schools are allowed to explore creationism but only in religion – not science – classes.

QUOTE

Ms. Wynne says Mr. Tory's comments show that he has not really thought out his policy and is just distracting from the real need to invest more in the existing public-education system.

The rules are pretty clear ... because the parents and kids totally understand them ... studying, discussing and being exposed to world religions has an important place in our public schools. Religious doctrine has no place.

Tory was suggesting CHRISTIAN doctrine presented as fact, outside of a religion class.

That's proselytizing in the public school and it is not allowed.

World religions, however, are a reality in our schools so study of them and cultures and foods, etc. is common throughout the curriculum and school life.

I think he is toast.

So is funding of faith-based schools ... unfortunately ... because it now carries the taint of his proselytizing faux pas.

He has not done them a service.

He is just too ... either too dumb or too dogmatic ... just has no common sense that man.

Does Rogers want him back now?

[Higgly]

The word also is the nail in the coffin. He is placing creationism on the same plane as evolution. Not forgetting that creationism comes to us from some parts of the faith spectrum, and not others. A confucian, for example, would never buy in. There goes Markham.

So long Johnny boy.

[geoffrey]

Keep creationism far far away from science classes. Dumb move on Tory's part.

[mikedavid00]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

Despite my support for the Separate School System, Tory is the wrong person to champion the cause. I know many believers in and out of the school system but I don't know any who actually believe the literal version of creation.

Suggesting that it could be taught alongside the scientific theories is plainly anti-intellectual poop.

Maybe Tory is trying to court the evangelical vote....but being in violation of the curriculum isn';t the way, especially if one of the selling points of broadening the separate system is to reassure the public that the curriculum will be adhered to.

I agree.

I couldn't believe that when I heard it. As I said, Tory is almost like this NDP candidate. he's not a realist, he's an idealist. He wants to control the puppets and determine what he believes to be taught to our students. He wants to play God Of Ontario and I just don't like it.

He tried to run for mayor in Toronto didn't he? And he lost?

[mikedavid00]

Heck, if you really want to get into it, science itself is a belief, even the Darwinian theory of evolution is up for debate within the scientific community, but we're teaching it.

It's funny how few people realize this.

[mikedavid00]

Keep creationism far far away from science classes. Dumb move on Tory's part.

I'm not voting for him for a reason. I hear him all the time on local morning radio.

He's just 'not conservative'. He's really NDP/Trudeau'ist. he's an idealist. He belives in banning everyting and controlling free speech (no litterally.. he wants a complete ban on cel phones while driving').

Supposedly the feds really want him in power because they know that once Tory has won the immigrant vote, they will likely win the next election and gain the majority and this is one of the secret reasons they could be holding back parlement.

For the feds this election means everything.

For us Canadians this issue means a lot because it's almost like a referendum; you want A or B.

In this case, do you want more ethnic ghettoization in Canada, or do you want a melting pot.

Vote Tory if you want further segragation and cans of worms. Vote Dalton if you want the Devil you Know.

Canadians tend to do the latter.

[Higgly]

For the feds this election means everything.

Exackly. This is why Steve has prorogued parliament. I'll bet he's sorry tonight.

[mikedavid00]

Exackly. This is why Steve has prorogued parliament. I'll bet he's sorry tonight.

I agree.

This election is very important for Canada as a whole.

well the people who are goign to win this vote is an immigrant shift and i'm not sure they don't care about creationism very much.

The immigrants need a reason to vote for Tory. it doesn't matter what we think. But most immigrants know what will happen if ethnic schools are introduced. Same with Shariah law. It pandered to a small group but not the whole.

This very well may secure a Sikh vote (*might* becuase they have loyalities to the Liberal party), it's goign to secure a Jewish vote for sure because they have a good percent of all their kids in private school.). Will it appeal to the average immigrant who want to ghettoise their kids? I'm not sure.

I don't know what's goign to happen.. i know it's very important!

[Leafless]

In this case, do you want more ethnic ghettoization in Canada, or do you want a melting pot.

Ethnic segregation is inevitable no matter who you vote for especially with the Charter that actually promotes this.

Vote Tory if you want further segregation and cans of worms. Vote Dalton if you want the Devil you Know.

Canadians tend to do the latter.

Mc.Guinty lied his way in last election.

You can keep your liar.

I will vote John Tory who wants and is trying to keep religion alive with funding for all religions, rather than allow Catholics to discriminate against other religions.

Who the hell wants a pagan State or country anyways?

John Tory's election platform makes sense and like he says "leadership matters", "for a better Ontario".

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTV...hub=TorontoHome

[gc1765]

Who the hell wants a pagan State or country anyways?

Pagan schools are being funded now?

[geoffrey]

Pagan schools are being funded now?

Do they have Christmas trees and Easter bunnies?

Hmm...

[gc1765]

Do they have Christmas trees and Easter bunnies?

Hmm...

Hehe, good point

[jennie]

I agree.

This election is very important for Canada as a whole.

well the people who are goign to win this vote is an immigrant shift and i'm not sure they don't care about creationism very much.

The immigrants need a reason to vote for Tory. it doesn't matter what we think. But most immigrants know what will happen if ethnic schools are introduced. Same with Shariah law. It pandered to a small group but not the whole.

This very well may secure a Sikh vote (*might* becuase they have loyalities to the Liberal party), it's goign to secure a Jewish vote for sure because they have a good percent of all their kids in private school.). Will it appeal to the average immigrant who want to ghettoise their kids? I'm not sure.

I don't know what's goign to happen.. i know it's very important!

mikedavid, you have repeatedly referred to "ethnic schools". I assume you are referring to Tory's policy on extending funding to faith-based schools. To my knowledge, many of these are (white) Christian schools. Your repeated reference to them as "ethnic" schools displays ignorance and an unattractive prejudice.

John Tory is a dead duck. Shot himself in the foot yesterday, suggesting Christian proselytizing should be done in our public schools. NO ONE is impressed with his ignorance of and disrespect for public school values! Tory is not a solution to anything.

[M.Dancer]

As I was in school, we studied the foundations of a myth. What makes a myth, what makes it a good myth which will catch people's attentions and last decades. In that, we compared it to Greek mythology and even the resurrection of Christ. Was that wrong? I mean, these beliefs exist, do we just tell the public school system to ignore them and pretend they aren't out there, or do we actually address them in proper context?

The proper context is in a religion class, not a science class

As for what the Buddhists DON'T believe. That's great, but was not the question. What DO they believe? What does the Koran say on the issue? Or what's the Hindu stance? You probably live beside and face people of these faiths on a daily basis. What do you really know about the social structure from which they came, as most social structures including that of the Western Cultures are defined and founded with roots deep into their religions.

Yes but that is irrelevant to the conversation. You could know everything there is about the celestial cycles and the many incarnations of Govinda and it would have nothing to do with teaching creationism.

And of course, one must remember, that science once told us that the sun revolved around the earth.

No, science never taught that the sun revolved around the earth.

[M.Dancer]

It's funny how few people realize this.

It isn't funny how few people understand that we haven't taught Darwinian evolution in decades. Science evolves you know.

Evolution itself is not a theory. It is an observable scientific fact.

How things evolve on the otherhand, there are plenty of theories about it.

[Leafless]

John Tory is a dead duck. Shot himself in the foot yesterday, suggesting Christian proselytizing should be done in our public schools. NO ONE is impressed with his ignorance of and disrespect for public school values! Tory is not a solution to anything.

That statement was clarified:

"Mr. Tory's proposal would allow creationism to be discussed only as part of religious studies programming, as is now the practice in Ontario's publicly funded Catholic schools," according to the Conservative camp.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...20-df25a0661f1b

Edited September 6, 2007 by Leafless