Canada is on the right track!

[jdobbin]

Simple challenge when it's right under your nose.

Best PM: Harper ahead of Martin by five points

Then there was the leadership competency back in early December.

Osprey News Network-December 6, 2005

Oh,oh!

And from Quebec,today,Dion really seems to be in trouble with the by-elections coming up.Oh,oh.

Liberals under gun in Quebec

I mention the poll where Harper passed Martin in the post immediately above your post. I had edited the statement I had initially made because I had forgotten about that last week prior to the election.

I had already cited the early December poll. It still had Martin ahead on Harper as best PM.

Edited September 3, 2007 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

As for the CROP poll, it comes in the same timeframe that has the Liberals ahead of the Tories in Montreal in the Strategic Counsel poll.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Outside of Montreal, Quebecers showed strong support for the Tories if an election were to be held today (Montreal support figures in brackets):

* Liberal candidate: 18 per cent (31 per cent)

* Conservative candidate: 29 per cent (14 per cent)

* NDP candidate: 8 per cent (10 per cent)

* Bloc Quebecois: 39 per cent (35 per cent)

* Green Party candidate: 6 per cent (11 per cent)

I have no doubt that the Liberals are in tough outside of Montreal But they seem to have solidified their support in Montreal. Perhaps the Toronto Star writer should have used the Strategic Counsel's polling numbers. But then that would have entailed citing a rival newspaper's poll.

Strategic Counsel has the Liberals ahead of the Tories in Quebec as well.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news...dd-8db887c925a7

Overall, the poll had the Bloc Québécois at 37 per cent in Quebec, the Liberals at 24 per cent, the Conservatives at 21 per cent, with the NDP and Greens on the edge of double digits at nine per cent.

Edited September 4, 2007 by jdobbin

[Fortunata]

Maybe it was the "Global Happiness Index" that turned the tide. Canadians love to rank well in such things. That slide in UN ranking doomed Martin!

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Well, you got us. That's what we care about, ranking highest in the Global Happiness Index. We live, breathe and vote that without giving two twigs about anything else. Oh, it's just another barb by jbg II? Carry on.

[Higgly]

What a load of codswallop. Canadians' views of the country are more linked to the economy than to the government. The question was not whether Canadians approve of Steve and the boys (too bad about Rona). The question was about Canada. Any social scientist can tell you that you are reading too much into this. But then being a Conservative, you come by your desperation honestly. No surprise this comes from CTV, though.

Edited September 4, 2007 by Higgly

[jennie]

Stephen Harper has, almost by personal force of will, turned the remnants of the old PC party and the old Reform party into a moderate, centrist, mainstream alternative to the Liberals. I think this was something Canadian politics desperately needed, and I think that like him or hate him, Canadians should at least appreciate that he has done something very important for our democracy.

-k

Harper wants us to believe that he has turned "mainstream, centrist, moderate" but the people of Canada are not buying him in that role. They are very dismayed by the lack of democracy in his leadership, the fact that their MP's are not allowed to speak for the constituents, but only speak for Harper and only when he tells them too, and what he tells them to say. The banning of the media is another sore point that highlights the lack of democracy and communication with the people.

Yes we do need a 'conservative' moderate party, but we do not have one yet, imo. Harper is following the Mike Harris model of sticking to his ideology, and then having to backtrack when it becomes apparent his policies simply are not feasible. Again, a lack of democracy because there is no consultation with any potentially dissenting voices.

Having said that, there are no other parties or leaders I can recommend either, frankly. I am just anti-politicians and governments in general!! We need a revolution!!

Edited September 4, 2007 by jennie

[kimmy]

You initially said prior to the election, his popularity rose. I don't think there was a single poll to indicate that.

Your Dec 6 poll shows Harper at 24%... I am sure that polls from earlier in 2005 had him in the low teens, so yes, I think his support increased considerably even prior to the election. It didn't happen all at once, and contrary to what Liberal revisionists wish to think, it didn't just happen after Ralph got investigated by the RCMP either.

As for your nappy time, several pollsters remarked on the RCMP investigation as being a turning point for poll numbers. Many say the Liberals lost the election rather than saying the Tories won it. I think the majority numbers the Liberals were flirting with at the beginning ought to tip you off to that fact and the ten point drop days after the RCMP announcement.

Obviously that hurt the Liberals, but as the cumulative poll results graph I posted shows, the shift in support was already well underway by that point. The Liberals had ceded the floor to the Conservatives, deciding to essentially take an early, extended Christmas Festivus holiday. Liberals whining that the RCMP cost them the election has to be one of the most tiring things to come out of the 2006 election.

I think you are deluded that the Tories are not a right wing party.

Because they're scary scary?

Actions speak louder than words, and their actions show them to be of a rather "red Tory" bent. As it has achieved more mainstream status, more moderate candidates have been drawn to the party and more hardline viewpoints have been pushed to the margins.

They are governing in the center because of minority status not because of any particular philosophical bent.

Harper has shown he is willing to temper his beliefs with pragmatism. He softens his stance right now because he hopes to attain a majority. If he attains a majority he will continue to moderate his party because he wants the party to continue to be a viable, main-stream political force in this country.

-k

[jdobbin]

Your Dec 6 poll shows Harper at 24%... I am sure that polls from earlier in 2005 had him in the low teens, so yes, I think his support increased considerably even prior to the election. It didn't happen all at once, and contrary to what Liberal revisionists wish to think, it didn't just happen after Ralph got investigated by the RCMP either.

Obviously that hurt the Liberals, but as the cumulative poll results graph I posted shows, the shift in support was already well underway by that point. The Liberals had ceded the floor to the Conservatives, deciding to essentially take an early, extended Christmas Festivus holiday. Liberals whining that the RCMP cost them the election has to be one of the most tiring things to come out of the 2006 election.

Because they're scary scary?

Actions speak louder than words, and their actions show them to be of a rather "red Tory" bent. As it has achieved more mainstream status, more moderate candidates have been drawn to the party and more hardline viewpoints have been pushed to the margins.

Harper has shown he is willing to temper his beliefs with pragmatism. He softens his stance right now because he hopes to attain a majority. If he attains a majority he will continue to moderate his party because he wants the party to continue to be a viable, main-stream political force in this country.

Harper's popularity was never higher than Martin's until after the RCMP investigation no matter what right wing revisionists believe.

I have never used the word scary about the Conservatives and it is tiresome when the right wing uses it.

I do believe though that people are deluded if they think the party is actually "red" Tory. Any pragmatism shown by Harper has come because he in a minority situation. I don't see a progressive wing of the party anymore.

[Michael Bluth]

I do believe though that people are deluded if they think the party is actually "red" Tory. Any pragmatism shown by Harper has come because he in a minority situation. I don't see a progressive wing of the party anymore.

You only see what you want to see. A progressive wing of the party does exist, but it doesn't help the Liberal Party of Canada, so you can't see it.

The Liberals whining scary is the tiresome thing.

You could at least be honest.

Any pragmatism shown by Harper has come because he in a minority situation.

Is just scary, scary, scary without using the actual word.

He hasn't been that bad because he is in a minority situation.

[kimmy]

Harper's popularity was never higher than Martin's until after the RCMP investigation no matter what right wing revisionists believe.

Those goalposts just keep moving, don't they. Considering how many times in this thread you've already revised your own claims regarding Harper never being more popular than Martin, you should rethink calling others revisionists.

So the news of the RCMP investigation beginning Dec 27th harpooned the last shreds of Martin's believability. Your point? That doesn't actually dispute what I've said.

There was undeniably a shift of popular approval from Martin to Harper during the campaign, and if the RCMP investigation was a factor in that, then so be it.

I think your own poll (showing Harper at 24% on December 6, 2005, when we all recall that earlier in 2005 he was well below that level, down in the teens just barely ahead of Duceppe) supports the other part of my claim.

And I think the fact that Harper continues to enjoy a higher level of popularity than his rivals further supports the claim that he has to some degree won some approval from Canadians, and that it not just result of an RCMP investigation that was launched almost 2 years ago against a different opponent. (unless Stephane Dion has been investigated by the RCMP recently?)

I have never used the word scary about the Conservatives and it is tiresome when the right wing uses it.

Ok. You object to the word "scary". Fine. Would it instead be fair to say that you think people should be "fearful" or "frightened" of what Harper would do if he obtains a majority? "Anxious"? "Worried"? "Panicked"?

I do believe though that people are deluded if they think the party is actually "red" Tory. Any pragmatism shown by Harper has come because he in a minority situation. I don't see a progressive wing of the party anymore.

...because once he attains a majority he'll rip off his latex mask, reveal himself to be Dick Cheney, and proceed to "Destroy the Country"?

-k

[jdobbin]

Those goalposts just keep moving, don't they. Considering how many times in this thread you've already revised your own claims regarding Harper never being more popular than Martin, you should rethink calling others revisionists.

So the news of the RCMP investigation beginning Dec 27th harpooned the last shreds of Martin's believability. Your point? That doesn't actually dispute what I've said.

There was undeniably a shift of popular approval from Martin to Harper during the campaign, and if the RCMP investigation was a factor in that, then so be it.

I think your own poll (showing Harper at 24% on December 6, 2005, when we all recall that earlier in 2005 he was well below that level, down in the teens just barely ahead of Duceppe) supports the other part of my claim.

And I think the fact that Harper continues to enjoy a higher level of popularity than his rivals further supports the claim that he has to some degree won some approval from Canadians, and that it not just result of an RCMP investigation that was launched almost 2 years ago against a different opponent. (unless Stephane Dion has been investigated by the RCMP recently?)

Ok. You object to the word "scary". Fine. Would it instead be fair to say that you think people should be "fearful" or "frightened" of what Harper would do if he obtains a majority? "Anxious"? "Worried"? "Panicked"?

...because once he attains a majority he'll rip off his latex mask, reveal himself to be Dick Cheney, and proceed to "Destroy the Country"?

I had argued that before the election that Harper's popularity was not higher than Martin's. I forgot the very last poll by SES a week before the vote when Harper's support did go above Martin's and corrected my statement.

For most of 2005 though, Harper's support trailed Martin's support by several points.

You might discount the RCMP investigation but coming within a few weeks of the actual vote, the Liberals and Martin couldn't erase the taint from it.

I've never used the word scary. I said that Harper is wrong. Wrong on the GST. Wrong on the Wheat Board. Wrong on same sex marriage. And wrong on a whole lot of other issues.

I simply look at what the party policies as listed on their own website and know that a majority is the only thing that is keeping them from carrying them out. Perhaps a lot of Canadians recognize this and while they might think things are going okay, they are not prepared to support the Tories above the low 30% mark.

Edited September 6, 2007 by jdobbin

[old_bold&cold]

Maybe you can list all these scarey polices that you think will happen if Harper gets a majority. I think what you fear the most is the cancellation of many liberal policies that were rammed thru when Chretien was PM., more then any thing the PC's might do anew. I can say that I may now agree with some ideas the PC's have, but can I live with the overall things, is where I make my decision. With the Liberals and especially Dion who I think is an IDIOT, I just do not see any new policies and definitely do not find anything about the liberals compelling. The more I see of Dion in the news, the less I think he has anything worthy of listening to. I can only hope that many other people are starting to see the same thing.

[jdobbin]

Maybe you can list all these scarey polices that you think will happen if Harper gets a majority.

I don't believe I ever said scary. I said wrong. Wrong on more GST cuts. Wrong on daycare. Wrong on the environment. Wrong on trying to extend the mission to Afghanistan to 2012.

I think we will see all those things if he gets a majority.

[M.Dancer]

I don't believe I ever said scary. I said wrong. Wrong on more GST cuts. Wrong on daycare. Wrong on the environment. Wrong on trying to extend the mission to Afghanistan to 2012.

I think we will see all those things if he gets a majority.

I will grant you daycare. The $100.00 universal is a joke. We were getting it and we had no one in daycare. It did come in handy though with dinner at Biff's

Iffy on the GST cuts. 1% on anything less than $20 went right in the retailers pocket

Mostly wrong on the Environment

I agree with you on Afghanistan. The mission in whatever format should be open ended, till the afghans can sort it out themselves.

[jennie]

I will grant you daycare. The $100.00 universal is a joke. We were getting it and we had no one in daycare. It did come in handy though with dinner at Biff's

Iffy on the GST cuts. 1% on anything less than $20 went right in the retailers pocket

Mostly wrong on the Environment

I agree with you on Afghanistan. The mission in whatever format should be open ended, till the afghans can sort it out themselves.

Universal day care ... 24 hour ... accessible by any child in trouble at any time ... a safe place.

In my dreams, of course.

But universal daytime day care is an absolute necessity right now. The $100 is an insult. That's babysitting for a night out, not DAY care. (What does that say about respect for children!!!)

Thanks for the rant space.

GST ... sounds like a reasonable answer, Dancer I'll go with that too!

Environment ... you know my feelings ...

Uranium (copper, silver, gold, zinc, etcetc but especially uranium) - LEAVE IT IN THE GROUND!!!

Boreal Forest ... LEAVE IT IN THE GROUND!!!

Greenfield ... LEAVE IT IN THE GROUND !!! and don't put a development on it either.

Brownfield ... Now THERE'S a worthy challenge for someone looking for new frontiers!!

Afghanistan ... I agree ... "in whatever format" with hopes that combat can be minimized asap.

I have heard from medical people that there is a shortage, a need for morphine. Afghanistan can't do that itself because of security issues. Can we do it with them? Invest, provide security, etc. to allow a legal industry to function? I would see that as a useful goal.

[geoffrey]

Universal day care ... 24 hour ... accessible by any child in trouble at any time ... a safe place.

What else do you want the government to do for you? Feed you. Clothe you?

[Fortunata]

... policies that were rammed thru when Chretien was PM., more then any thing the PC's might do anew....

This party is NOT the PC party. This party is the CPC; the P not standing for progressive. Big difference.

will grant you daycare. The $100.00 universal is a joke. We were getting it and we had no one in daycare. It did come in handy though with dinner at Biff's

Aha, the beer and popcorn crowd