Gay Unions, An Enduring Tradition

[M.Dancer]

All those who deny the right to Gays to form a legal lasting relationship based on the presumption that there are no traditions to that effect may now be comforted and make an proposal to their lifelong fishing/hunting/bowling/beer buddies..........

Civil unions between male couples existed around 600 years ago in medieval Europe, a historian now says.

Historical evidence, including legal documents and gravesites, can be interpreted as supporting the prevalence of homosexual relationships hundreds of years ago, said Allan Tulchin of Shippensburg University in Pennsylvania.

If accurate, the results indicate socially sanctioned same-sex unions are nothing new, nor were they taboo in the past.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/200708...AuvLo.OgZWs0NUE

[sucker punch]

All those who deny the right to Gays to form a legal lasting relationship based on the presumption that there are no traditions to that effect may now be comforted and make an proposal to their lifelong fishing/hunting/bowling/beer buddies..........

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/200708...AuvLo.OgZWs0NUE

No! NONONO! It's a sin! My infallible invisible friend told me through a book written by people thousands of years ago! This cheapens my marriage with my wife!

How is my family supposed to survive when people that have nothing to do with me are doing things that don't affect me!?

This is an outrage!

[gc1765]

No! NONONO! It's a sin! My infallible invisible friend told me through a book written by people thousands of years ago! This cheapens my marriage with my wife!

How is my family supposed to survive when people that have nothing to do with me are doing things that don't affect me!?

This is an outrage!

[sharkman]

Ah yes, the revisionist gay agenda strikes again. Next they'll be finding that aliens have been having gay relationships and Mars has been strictly gay for 500 years. So we should too.

[sucker punch]

Ah yes, the revisionist gay agenda strikes again. Next they'll be finding that aliens have been having gay relationships and Mars has been strictly gay for 500 years. So we should too.

Agree 100%, and I'm not paranoid at all either! Damn those gay people, and their absurd, evil, secret plans for equal rights.

Gay people are sinners, and should be stoned to death, not given the right to marry.

And while we're at it? Women aren't even people. Where did our society go wrong, letting property vote? Next thing you know, we'll be letting our pet dogs vote too!

Where did this country go wrong?!

[maldon_road]

Ah yes, the revisionist gay agenda strikes again. Next they'll be finding that aliens have been having gay relationships and Mars has been strictly gay for 500 years. So we should too.

I have been told many times by my friends in the religious right that my marriage is in jeopardy because of SSM. I keep asking how. I am still waiting for an answer.

[guyser]

Ah yes, the revisionist gay agenda strikes again. Next they'll be finding that aliens have been having gay relationships and Mars has been strictly gay for 500 years. So we should too.

Or more like how some keep burying their heads in the sand and saying "No NO NO, that could never have happened."

Besides, everyone knows Aliens have gay relationships since they like to probe everything. Just ask Cartman. Not so sure about Mars since its been dead for eons.

[marcinmoka]

Ah yes, the revisionist gay agenda strikes again.

By any chance, do you have a copy? I went into Indigo today, but to no avail. Though I was debating on holding out and waiting for the Christmas gift set, where it comes bundled with a hardcover edition of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

[sharkman]

By any chance, do you have a copy? I went into Indigo today, but to no avail. Though I was debating on holding out and waiting for the Christmas gift set, where it comes bundled with a hardcover edition of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

A copy of the Gay Agenda? Think the Skulls secret club and you will understand the chances of it being down on paper. I have always believed in live and let live, but object to the sudden new "discoveries" of Gayness in everything from animals to Jesus. Gays should just live their lives and quit trying to prove or justify their lifestyle, much like I or you do.

[guyser]

I have always believed in live and let live, but object to the sudden new "discoveries" of Gayness in everything from animals to Jesus. Gays should just live their lives and quit trying to prove or justify their lifestyle, much like I or you do.

Perchance is that because new "discoveries" goes against your stated bias against gays? It would certianly seem so.

[jawapunk]

I never understood what is so morally reprehensible to people about being gay anyway. The problem Sharkman, is although you may (or may not) actually believe in live and let live, people with similar mindsets to you don't. The believe that it is better to force people to live in secret and solicit sex in airport bathroom stalls with foot taps.

What about gay marriage bothers you truthfully? I would just like to understand. Also, "the skulls?" Give me a break, you don't honestly think there is some secret committee out there that meets in the back room of a fashionable night club and discusses world doimation while listening to madonna and sipping white wine spritzers do you?

[sharkman]

I never understood what is so morally reprehensible to people about being gay anyway. The problem Sharkman, is although you may (or may not) actually believe in live and let live, people with similar mindsets to you don't. The believe that it is better to force people to live in secret and solicit sex in airport bathroom stalls with foot taps.

What about gay marriage bothers you truthfully? I would just like to understand. Also, "the skulls?" Give me a break, you don't honestly think there is some secret committee out there that meets in the back room of a fashionable night club and discusses world doimation while listening to madonna and sipping white wine spritzers do you?

Those who would force their everything gay beliefs on society are no better than those who would force gays to live a secret life. And don't kid yourself, there are committees and secret agendas in the gay movement. Their goals include forcing societies to enshrine their choice of sexual behaviour in constitutions even above all other citizens. And doing such for a group of people that number around 2% of the Canadian population is beyond silly since they already receive all the benefits of being Canadian citizens.

[Melanie_]

Your use of the word "choice" is incorrect. and I'm wondering what rights you see gays asking for that are not also granted to heterosexuals?

Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?

No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

American Psychological Association

[jawapunk]

Well, apparently they don't if you don't allow them to get married. I am also pretty sure that being gay is already protected under the charter of rights and freedoms. You give sucha low number 2%, I was sure the proportions were higher than that. Do you have a non-Christian news site or Stats Canada source for that number?

Also, the committee you are discussing is not secret, I am fairly sure that there are gay and lesbian coalitions that exist in all western nations with goals not to take over the world or recruit more gays, or attack little boys. But merely to seek and maintain the rights and priveledges afforded to what you would call a normal citizen. This is much the same as the Civil rights movement in the 1960s, which is continued today with the NAACP and other groups. This is the same as womens rights movements.

Again, what is the problem. Are you secretly gay and it is tearing you apart on the inside? Or do you hate to see freedom?

[sharkman]

There have been many threads on this topic here over the years, and I hesitate to get into it again tonight, but I will give you a link that says you are wrong about the percentage of gays in Canada and by extension, elsewhere.

I was being a little charitable by giving credit for 2%.

[jawapunk]

Interesting. I would have thought it was higher than that. It may very well be, as many people do not openly admit, but even that being said it would still not be more than 2.5-3%. And certainly not the 10% that I had heard very often.

[sharkman]

Yet this was a survey that people filled out alll alone in their homes and mailed off to Stats Canada. I would submit no one was reluctant to fess up to their sexual preference under these conditions, even more so for gays when the opportunity to be counted came up. Yet under 2% in a country far more liberal than the U.S.

[jennie]

Interesting. I would have thought it was higher than that. It may very well be, as many people do not openly admit, but even that being said it would still not be more than 2.5-3%. And certainly not the 10% that I had heard very often.

The devil is always in the details of surveys ... of what the question is.

I believe the 10% figure relates to the question "ever had a homosexual experience".

"Consider yourself homosexual" is a more restricted population, apparently.

We really do have a plethora of kafuffle considering that there is clearly not a threat here to anyone.

I guess it's those fears of rampantly-spreading homosexuality that some people have ...

(... Where does that fear come from ?)

[jefferiah]

The devil is always in the details of surveys ... of what the question is.

I believe the 10% figure relates to the question "ever had a homosexual experience".

"Consider yourself homosexual" is a more restricted population, apparently.

We really do have a plethora of kafuffle considering that there is clearly not a threat here to anyone.

I guess it's those fears of rampantly-spreading homosexuality that some people have ...

(... Where does that fear come from ?)

I think that 10 per cent figure has been admitted to have been tweaked. I think that originated with the Kinsey reports, which I think are highly untrustworthy.

Edited August 31, 2007 by jefferiah

[jawapunk]

Well regardless of numbers, it still adds up to thousands upon thousands of people in this country and millions around the world. Obviously it can't be considered abberrant behaviour, nor should it be blocked from what most would consider basic human rights. I think the right to choose your sexuality and live in a union of your choice should be protected by the government. In fact, I have no problems with polygymy (spelling?) if all parties are willing (and of age).

[Argus]

Well regardless of numbers, it still adds up to thousands upon thousands of people in this country and millions around the world. Obviously it can't be considered abberrant behaviour,

How do you define what constitutes abberrant behaviour? By numbers? Is lusting after children aberrant behaviour? Is tying people up and whipping them - or being tied up and whipped - abberrant behaviour? What about sex with animals? Incest? I bet the number of people who have had incestuous relationships numbers in the millions around the world too. Why can't a brother marry his sister - or two sisters get married?

nor should it be blocked from what most would consider basic human rights. I think the right to choose your sexuality and live in a union of your choice should be protected by the government. In fact, I have no problems with polygymy (spelling?) if all parties are willing (and of age).

Isn't age an artificial judgement? Didn't we used to marry girls off at twelve and thirteen - often to men twice their age?

[AngusThermopyle]

Is lusting after children aberrant behaviour? Is tying people up and whipping them - or being tied up and whipped - abberrant behaviour? What about sex with animals? Incest? I bet the number of people who have had incestuous relationships numbers in the millions around the world too. Why can't a brother marry his sister - or two sisters get married?

I'm not quite sure what your point is here.

Lusting after children is generally considered peadophilia. Tying people up is S&M or dominant behaviour. Sex with animals is Bestiality. Incest is just Incest, or as practitioners would say, Incest is best.

As I said, I don't quite follow your point. Are you saying that Homosexuality can be equated with the aforementioned sexual behaviours?

If that is your point I would have to say I disagree. A current theory is that the practicing Peadophile has no control over the urges they feel. If so I suppose a case could be made comparing the two root causes of these behaviours. As for the rest I have no idea. I don't know if people are born with a genetic predisposition towards Bestiality or Incest or if it's merely abberant behaviour.

[Argus]

I'm not quite sure what your point is here.

Lusting after children is generally considered peadophilia. Tying people up is S&M or dominant behaviour. Sex with animals is Bestiality. Incest is just Incest, or as practitioners would say, Incest is best.

As I said, I don't quite follow your point. Are you saying that Homosexuality can be equated with the aforementioned sexual behaviours?

If that is your point I would have to say I disagree. A current theory is that the practicing Peadophile has no control over the urges they feel. If so I suppose a case could be made comparing the two root causes of these behaviours. As for the rest I have no idea. I don't know if people are born with a genetic predisposition towards Bestiality or Incest or if it's merely abberant behaviour.

I was merely pointing out the flaws in the previous poster's logic. Mere numbers do not define what is or is not aberrant behavior.

[ScottSA]

Ah yes, the revisionist gay agenda strikes again. Next they'll be finding that aliens have been having gay relationships and Mars has been strictly gay for 500 years. So we should too.

Quite right. A little like the revisionist notion that the saxons simply immigrated to Britain in peace in the 5th and 6th centuries instead of doing what the folks living at the time said they did, which was practice rapine and pillage and, by some accounts, genocide. The revisionism was all based on one excavation, which found different cultures living side by side. They lived side by side alright, but that was because they lived during different time periods. Probably after one side burned the houses and enslaved the women of the other side. But it makes for nice comfort food in these immigrantish times, even if it's pure fabrication.

This particular homosexual revisionist myth is easily dealt with here:

http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9411/articles/darling.html

Even the author of the nonsense that Morris cites adds a caveat:

"I suspect that some of these relationships were sexual, while others may not have been," Tulchin said. "It is impossible to prove either way and probably also somewhat irrelevant to understanding their way of thinking. They loved each other, and the community accepted that.”

Sure, but as he very well knows, had they been caught inserting bodily parts in each other's rectums, they would have only been accepted in little tiny pieces:

Although the Middle Ages, extending from about the twelfth through the fifteenth centuries, is not a single cohesive epoch, the copious citation of trials and laws would merely accumulate evidence of homophobia rather than give us insight into its causes. Throughout this period antihomosexual attitudes and stereotypes changed only in so far as they became more rigid, and were used increasingly to bolster certain social institutions such as the papacy and state governments. The real reason for the persecution of the Templars — the most powerful crusading order of its time — derived from political and economic hostility, greed and envy. The Church and the State defeated a real threat to their authority, confiscated their great wealth, and achieved an object lesson which struck terror into the hearts of much less powerful potential enemies. The unquestioned authority of Church and State was reaffirmed.

http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/homopho5.htm

Oh, that was obviously from a pro-homosexual site, just in case anyone needs to actually question the obvious fact that homosexuality was seen as unnatural then too. Its temper tantrumish tone takes away from any authority it tries to convey, but I used it to avoid the accusation of cherry picking my sources. Any serious work will back up the facts as well.

Morris is always on the lookout for revisionism, and I certainly applaud his tenacity in trying to put a PC slant on history.

[Rue]

Ah yes, the revisionist gay agenda strikes again. Next they'll be finding that aliens have been having gay relationships and Mars has been strictly gay for 500 years. So we should too.

Hey Sharkie John Wayne was gay.